Lords Sitting of 28 January 1887

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Committee of Selection, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Probation of First Offenders* (3); Christchurch (Southampton) Charter (Correction of Error) * (4); Women's Suffrage) * (5).

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
The Lords following; viz.,

E. Morley.

L. Boyle.

E. Lathom.

L. Colville of Culross.

with the Chairman of Committees, were appointed a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

MILITARY ARMAMENTS AND ORGANIZATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS, on rising to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether Her Majesty's Government are taking steps, and, if so, what steps to improve our military armaments and organization? said, he must apolo-
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  gize to their Lordships for bringing on the question that evening. He was glad to notice that, from the contents of the Speech from the Throne, Her Majesty was on friendly terms with all the Foreign Powers. But, at the same time, they also knew that nothing tended to the maintenance of peace so much as a state of preparation for war. He would go further, and say that he believed a strong England, strong not only at home, but strong in her coaling stations, in her harbours, and in her Colonies, was a material element in a question which affected the peace of Europe. Mention was made of other questions in the Speech, no doubt, of great importance—the questions of Ireland and local government, for example. Ireland at the present moment unquestionably presented a spectacle which could not be paralleled in any other part of the civilized world, because in that country law and order were apparently suspended in a great degree. Important as these matters were, however, there was no reference whatever in the Speech from the Throne to the question of our armaments, on which all Europe at the present time was agitated, nor as to anything which the Government proposed to do for the defence of the country. It was true that their Lordships had heard, and they had read statements in the newspapers that morning made in "another place" by the Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) and the First Lord of the Admiralty (Lord George Hamilton), and he (the Earl of Wemyss) believed that the Government were keenly alive to what it was necessary to do in one direction, at any rate, for the safety of the Empire. They saw that the resignation of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) turned on the question of Military and Naval Expenditure, as to which a Royal Commission and those most cognizant with the question agreed that there should be an adequate outlay on coaling stations and harbours. They, no doubt, had also read that the reasoning which led to this resignation on the part of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had been described as "safe and judicious," but he was greatly mistaken if public opinion, without respect to Party, would not on this question declare that safety and sound judgment—aye, and public spirit and patriotism,

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  rested with those who maintained the necessity of having sufficient and efficient defences. This was, perhaps, the first occasion when a Secretary of State for War and a First Lord of the Admiralty, backed by their Colleagues and a Prime Minister, had successfully resisted the curtailment suggested in the Estimates by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This was an indication that Her Majesty's Government were keenly and patriotically alive to the wants of the nation as regarded defence, but he should like to know whether Her Majesty's Government were also turning their attention, in the first instance, to the question of armaments; and, in the next place, to matters affecting military organization at home? It had been his duty on several occasions to call the attention of their Lordships to what he considered to be the defects in our armament, and also the grave deficiency in the matter of military organization. About six weeks ago, he read a statement in a newspaper to the effect that the War Office were about to adopt what was called the Schulhoff new repeating arm. If this was the case, all he could say was, better late than never. He had seen this arm about five years ago, and to his knowledge it was submitted to the authorities. It was the simplest possible form of repeater. There were no springs or other complications about it, and for the small sum of 8s. the repeating action could have been applied and could now be applied to the existing arms of the Service.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS): To the Martini-Henry?
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Yes, to the Martini-Henry, by cutting away a portion of the stock. He believed that this question of a good repeating rifle was of greater importance than a lower projectile, and many other things to which attention had been directed. If that were the case, he hoped that, looking to what was going on in Europe with regard to armaments and to the way in which other nations were arming their forces with repeaters, this country would not be left in a position of inferiority. If our troops were sent abroad armed only with a breech-loading rifle and met troops armed with a repeater, the authorities at the War Office would be guilty of a grave
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  dereliction of duty. He hoped no time would be lost in giving such an arm to our troops. The other point he was anxious to obtain some information upon was whether any action was being taken with reference to the Militia and its organization. He hoped the rumour was well founded that the Government had been moving heaven and earth to do all they possibly could to establish two Army Corps, thoroughly equipped in every way. This step had also been too long delayed; but he was very glad to hear such a rumour. In the interest of the nation and the efficiency of its defences he trusted that these preparations would be promptly carried out. As to the Militia, he should like to know whether anything was being done to fill the Militia up to its proper establishment, and also whether the Government intended to do anything to give effect to the original intention that the Militia Army Reserve should be borne in excess of the Militia Establishment? There were other questions, mainly affecting the Reserve Forces, the question of artillery, of commissariat, transport, and the equipment of Volunteers. On the last mentioned subject, it was known that without equipment the Volunteer Force could not keep the field for a day. They were men with muskets, and nothing else. There was an impression, too, that although the sum granted to the Volunteers was sufficient to cover equipment, yet there were some corps which, from the circumstances in which they were placed, found the grant insufficient to enable them to equip themselves. He hoped the Government would look into the question and see that the Volunteer Force was made effective, which at present it was not. He had read with interest and some surprise the speech of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Harris) at a recent distribution of prizes to Volunteers. He was bound to say that that speech had caused a good deal of alarm through the Force, as was shown by the fact that one Service newspaper headed its article "Startling Announcement." The announcement was to the effect that only a certain sum of money was voted for military purposes, and that, therefore, only a small sum might remain for the Volunteers. He ventured to think that the House of Commons never had refused, and never would refuse, whatever

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  sum the Ministers responsible for the safety of the country and the efficiency of the protective Services came and asked for, backed by the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The interpretation put upon that speech was that it was for the Military Authorities, under a proper system of organization, to declare what is the proper number of Volunteers; that if there were too many Volunteers in one locality they should either be allowed to die off or be compelled to diminish their companies; and that if there were not too many—[Lord HARRIS dissented.] He (the Earl of Wemyss) was glad to see his noble Friend shake his head, because that was the impression his speech had made, and he was pleased to find it was a wrong impression. The Volunteer Army was a very sensitive Army; it had existed now for nearly 30 years, having sprung from the public spirit of the people, and been allowed to grow freely in what direction it could; and if any Minister were to be unwise enough to endeavour to deal with the Volunteer Force as he would the pieces on a chess-board, the whole thing would disappear. It was a Force that was full of vigour and growth, and he begged the War Office Authorities to consider what would be the position of the country if we were to lose this Army, consisting of some 200,000 men, which had done so much for the strength of the country, and done so much also to raise the character of Englishmen for patriotism, public spirit, and self-denial. The noble Earl concluded by putting the Question of which he had given Notice.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid he would intervene for a few moments between the reply of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War to say that, since the question of economy had been publicly raised elsewhere in reference to the War Department, that there might be a considerable saving in the Civilian element of this Military Department, and at the same time business expedited between Regiments, the units of the Army, by a reduction in the number of clerks, for whenever an increase in the Army took place a small army of clerks was added to the Department out of proportion to the addition made in the combatant portion of the Service. He did not think the public were desirous of such cheese-paring as taking away
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  the Military Secretary from the Governor of Gibraltar, who was also the General Officer at that important place, or taking away the Aide-de-Camp from the Brigadiers at Aldershot. He generally concurred in what had fallen from the noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss), but would desire, before any more money was spent upon the Volunteers, that they should be organized, and that old force, the Militia, should receive more attention both in respect to equipment, and by being raised or recruited to its proper strength. The present state of things made us appear more American than the Americans, caused by the number of honorary Colonels to be met with wherever you went. It would be evidence of great ingratitude in the case of any Commanding Officer of a Regiment at the period of the Crimean War, who did not acknowledge the advantage of the Militia, as the means of filling the ranks of their Regiments with both old and young Soldiers. He maintained that, unorganized, the Volunteers might become a source of danger rather than strength. Of course, the Volunteers were popular because every one nearly had some relative in them, and from the circumstance that they originally cost little, which being less the case now, was an additional reason for their not being made more efficient, at the expense, and to the detriment of, the older Force, the Militia; but of all short-sighted cheeseparing, neglect of the Coaling Stations would be the most objectionable, they being inadequate for the purposes of the Mercantile Marine, irrespectively of those of vessels of war. The cost for the Services of the Military Secretary at Gibraltar and the Staff at Aldershot, lately reduced, would not be more than £1,200 per annum altogether, and several £1,200 could be saved out of the Civilian element of this Military Department. From the large number of Officers who were placed out of the Service against their will, at a great cost to the country, although of an age when perfectly competent to serve, many might be very advantageously employed both in the Militia and the Volunteers.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I am not going to dilate on the speech of my noble Friend; but as reference has been made to the subject of the defence of our coaling stations, I should be glad

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  if the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War could give your Lordships some general information as to the progress which has been made in that most important branch of the defences of the country. My Lords, we have just read in the papers a correspondence between the noble Marquess the Prime Minister (the Marquess of Salisbury) and Lord Randolph Churchill on the subject of the resignation by Lord Randolph Churchill of the Office of Chancellor of the Exchequer—and as that correspondence bears mainly upon the continuance or otherwise of the expenditure upon the defences for the coaling stations, I cannot think it would be right for anyone who has had some responsibility in the matter to avoid taking the earliest opportunity of saying a few words upon the subject. The subject of the defence of the coaling stations is by no means a new one. A Royal Commission, which was appointed when the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was Prime Minister, sat some time ago, presided over by my noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon), and upon it were men of the highest distinction, both military and civil, including my noble Friend behind me (the Earl of Camperdown), and an hon. Friend of mine, a Member of the other House, Mr. Whitehead, both men of sound judgment and experience. They made a Report, proposing certain defences of coaling stations which they considered necessary. That Report was very carefully considered by Mr. Gladstone's Government, and at the time I was at the head of the Navy—in the winter of 1884—I explained to the House the expenditure which the Government had determined on with respect to the coaling defences. The Estimates came to between £800,000 and £900,000, and were included in the programme which Mr. Gladstone's Government recommended to Parliament, and which I had the honour to explain to your Lordships. That programme formed the basis of the Naval and Military Estimates for the year 1885–6, which were Estimates proposed on the responsibility of the Administration over which Mr. Gladstone presided. The Government which succeeded it did not remain sufficiently long in Office to propose any Estimates to Parliament. The Naval
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  and Military Estimates for the year 1886–7 were proposed to Parliament upon the responsibility of Mr. Gladstone's last Administration, while my noble Friend (Lord Ripon) was First Lord of the Admiralty. The Estimates proposed to Parliament, including the defences of the coaling stations, have been Estimates proposed to Parliament by two Liberal Administrations, over both of which Mr. Gladstone was Prime Minister. Therefore, the scale of expenditure with respect to the fortification of the coaling stations was a scale deliberately adopted by two Liberal Governments after full inquiry, and accepted, I may say without any hesitation, by both Houses of Parliament as being necessary for the defences of the country. Those being the circumstances of the case, I feel bound to express my humble opinion, after having read the correspondence I have referred to, that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) would not have been doing his duty to the country if he had taken the responsibility of following the advice of Lord Randolph Churchill to abandon or to postpone the completion of those defences. The programme of 1884 has formed the basis of the Naval, and, to a very considerable extent, of the Army Estimates of succeeding years, because a large portion of the expenditure upon ships—namely, the supply of ordnance—is included in the Army and not in the Navy Estimates. The programme which Mr. Gladstone's Government of 1884 decided to recommend to the country, embraced an expenditure of £5,250,000 in excess of the normal expenditure, spread over a period of about four years. The Estimates thus framed were accepted by the other House of Parliament for 1885–6; and I am bound to say that, so far as I am acquainted with the facts of the case, it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for the present First Lord of the Admiralty (Lord George Hamilton) to have conscientiously advised any large reduction in the expenses of the Navy. The expenditure is mainly for the construction of ships, and that expenditure is almost entirely upon contracts. Contracts were made in 1884 which cannot now have expired, and the ships cannot yet have been completed. How, then, would it be possible for the First Lord of the Admiralty to make any sweeping

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  reduction in the programme accepted by Parliament, and on the faith of which the contracts had been entered into? I have only one word more to say upon the subject, and that is that I cannot conceive anything more uneconomical than to have violent fluctuations in expenditure. When the country has once determined that a certain scale of expenditure shall be carried out in a certain time, it is the worst economy to endeavour for any purpose of the moment suddenly to alter that scale. I myself am one of those who believe that the greatest economy should be maintained in the spending Departments of the country; and, after the completion of the contracts made in 1884, and if the circumstances should be such as not to render it necessary to increase the strength of the Navy in any particular class of vessel, it appears to me very possible for the expenditure on the Navy to be again reduced to something like its former normal rate. But at the present time I think that it would not be consistent with the duty of the First Lord if he accepted the making of large and sweeping reductions in the expenditure on the Navy. In conclusion, it is almost sufficient to state the fact that these Estimates have been proposed by two successive Liberal Governments to satisfy the country that in no sense have they been Estimates formed upon any aggressive policy, or with any desire of going to war. In fact, considering the great expansion of the military forces of the principal States in Europe, it would be almost absurd for anyone to accuse this country of wishing to embark upon an aggressive war. Our first desire must be that our Navy should be so strong as to prevent any successful attack being made upon us, and I say, without fear of contradiction from any one who has paid any attention to the subject, that this expenditure has been made purely for defensive purposes, and to no greater extent than is rendered necessary for the safety of the country, by the introduction of modern systems of armament and the great increase in the forces of other nations.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he merely wished to remind their Lordships that the programme drawn up by the Commission, over which Lord Carnarvon had presided, had not been carried out to its fullest extent, and some of the most im-
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  portant items had been omitted, especially the fortification of the Cape of Good Hope and of Singapore. He wished to know what was being done with regard to Singapore? He mentioned this in support of what had fallen from the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Wemyss).
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS): I think your Lordships will agree with me that there was no occasion for the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) who brought this subject forward to apologize for having done so. The great interest which the noble Earl takes in all military measures is a sufficient justification. The only thing I regret is that, in consequence of the changes which have recently taken place, I am not in a position to-night to give him as much information as I should have wished to do with regard to the Questions which he has addressed to me. I do not think that I am justified in anticipating, in any way, the remarks which may be made later on by the Secretary of State for War when the Estimates are brought forward. But I think I can give the noble Earl on the Cross Benches some information on one or two points which I hope will satisfy him. With regard to repeating rifles, in connection with the Schulhoff repeater, the question of magazine guns has certainly not escaped the attention of the Government and the Military Authorities. The Committee which has been sitting for some time have given it close attention; and, although I am unable to state what kind of rifle will be decided on, I can tell him that the adoption of a magazine rifle is very nearly approaching completion. I am not an expert myself in these matters; but I am inclined to think that the magazine could not have been attached to the Martini-Henry by cutting a piece out of the stock, and that the noble Earl's suggestion in this matter reminds me that it would have been very like putting a new piece in an old garment, and that the consequences would have been as bad in the case of the gun. I am informed that the magazine could not have been attached. The noble Earl pointed out that most foreign armies had already adopted the repeating magazine rifle, and that we ought not to be behind them. But, I should like to ask, is the noble Earl satisfied that each

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  foreign army has the best possible repeating rifle?
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Very possibly not.
  LORD HARRIS: There is the greatest difference between England and foreign nations. From our position, it is not so absolutely necessary for us to be first in the field, and to jump at the first novelty in the market. I think we are taking the wiser course in considering the various patterns of repeating rifles that have been produced, and then testing them with the object of adopting the best of them. At any rate, that has been the course adopted at the War Office. The noble Earl also referred to the Militia, although he did not go into the matter so fully as last autumn. I hope that my statement then satisfied him. I think he is correct in his impression that the Military Authorities are elaborating a plan for placing two Army Corps in the field thoroughly equipped. I understand him to suggest that the Militia Reserve should be borne in excess of the Militia Establishment. We hold to the Militia Reserve as a body who, in case of mobilization, or in case of war, would be of great service in making up deficiencies in the Regular Army, and if he can persuade the country to increase the Establishment by 30,000 men, I do not think the War Department will make any objection, and for myself I shall be glad to welcome the increase. With regard to the suggestion of the noble Earl respecting the Volunteer Field Artillery, I am happy to be able to inform him that we propose to supply, at no distant date, something like 84 field guns to the Volunteer Field Artillery. I may mention, as I am upon this point, that what has been called the reduction in the Royal Horse Artillery is a misnomer, and ought more correctly to be described as a conversion; and this conversion has taken place because in our scheme of mobilization it was found that the Royal Horse Artillery was in excess of the proportion with regard to the other branches of the Service. The actual reduction in the number of guns is only 28, and we are going to supply, as I have already said, 84 guns to the Volunteer Field Artillery, and the reduction occurs in those batteries which would lose all their guns on a declaration of war; in order that
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  they might form an ammunition column instead of withdrawing all their guns, two only per battery have been withdrawn. The actual reduction in batteries is only two—one horse and one field. With regard to the Transport and Commissariat for the Volunteers, I think it would be an excellent thing if the Volunteers were able to organize their own Transport and Commissariat; but I cannot say, from my six months' experience at the War Office, that I have found any great anxiety among them on this point. If, however, any demand was shown in this direction we should take it into consideration. That, however, could not be carried out without expense. It is true it might be done at little cost, but that it would cost something I am sure. The noble Earl has referred to what an article in The Volunteer Service Gazette calls a "startling announcement" of mine. I never for an instant suggested that the Volunteer Force should be reduced. What I stated was, that it was for the Military Authorities to say how many Volunteers there should be, and I am greatly surprised to find that anyone can regard this as a "startling announcement." Instead, however, of doing that, I thought I was making a very encouraging statement. Although Parliament votes the Estimates, it does so on the advice of the Secretary of State for War, who is advised by the Military Authorities. We are at present not up to the Establishment of Volunteers; but we are approaching that limit, and I think that any wise man when approaching a limit in his career would turn his attention to and consider what he would do when that limit was reached. Similarly, I think it is necessary for us to consider what is to be done when we have reached the full Establishment. We are still deficient 20,000; but there is a noticeable deficiency in certain branches, such as the Submarine Mining Corps and the Garrison Artillery, and it is absolutely necessary that before we reach the full limit of 250,000 men we should complete in directions that are specially necessary for the defence of the country. The Volunteers have been recruited for the defence of the country, and they have shown great patriotism and loyalty, and I do not think that that patriotism and loyalty will be damped or fail them when the Military Authorities ask them to do that which is necessary for the de-

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  fence of the country. But it has not been contemplated to reduce the Volunteer Forces, and I did not suggest that it had. Indeed, I may tell the noble Earl that in the mobilization scheme a most important part has been assigned to the Volunteers. I may repeat that, as far as I know, there is not the slightest idea of reducing the number of the Volunteers. But we are anxious that in any increases that may be made, they should be in a direction that shall be of the greatest use to the country. We fully recognize the great value of the Force, and are extremely desirous that if the time should ever come when they should be wanted, they shall be in as efficient a state as possible. The noble Earl below the Gangway (the Earl of Ellenborough) referred to the reduction of the Staff appointments at Gibraltar and Aldershot. All I can say is that these matters have been carefully considered, and that the Authorities came to the conclusion that these reductions could be made. With regard to the reductions which he suggests on the Civil side of the War Office, I can only remind him that there is a Commission sitting now to inquire into Departmental administration, and it would be better to wait for the Report of that Commission than to rest on any remarks from me, who have had but a short experience of the Department. In reference to the question of the noble Earl as to the armament of the coaling stations, I wish I could give him a fuller reply. I have no doubt that in a short time I shall be able to go into more details; but for the present I will simply say that we are proceeding as fast as we can, and we are spending all the money that has been granted to us by Parliament; but delay has no doubt occurred owing to the longer time which it now takes, owing to the greater mathematical precision required, to make the requisite guns and emplacement. It will be found that this year's Estimates will contain provisions for continuing what has been done. In some cases the armaments are being completed as quickly as possible, and that is particularly so in the case of Singapore.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he trusted that the House would consider that the course which he had taken had been justified, for he had elicited some valuable declarations from his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State
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  for War. It appeared, from the speech delivered yesterday in the other House by Mr. Gladstone, that what he considered two years ago safe and judicious to do in order to increase our Imperial defences, he no longer thought judicious now that he was out of office. With reference to the argument that the War Office authorities were waiting for the best repeating rifle, he would observe that that was just the sort of argument that might have been used by the Austrians before Sadowa. He held that it was better to have an inferior repeater than none at all.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he fully concurred in the statement which had been made by the noble Earl (the Earl of Northbrook) as to the Votes for the Coaling Stations having been proposed by Mr. Gladstone's recent Administrations. The Government, he thought, however, had, for very good reasons, declined to be party to abandoning the further expenditure upon these stations; but he might go farther and say that the proposals originated out of arrangements with the Colonies which would make it exceedingly difficult to stop the expenditure, and, particularly after the Votes in Parliament, to now entirely repudiate them.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, that the two noble Earls (Earl Granville and the Earl of Northbrook) took credit to Mr. Gladstone for initiating the expenditure on the Coaling Stations; but Mr. Gladstone himself now rather approved of the resistance of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to further expenditure on them, and considered his action was wise and judicious. No doubt, when his own Government decided to construct stations, or to spend money in defending them, he thought that also wise and judicious.
  EARL GRANVILLE: The noble Earl seems to think that the members of the late Government are determined to oppose a Vote of money to which they agreed when in power. I wish to assure the noble Earl that he is wrong in thinking this. I did not hear Mr. Gladstone's speech. Indeed, I was engaged in receiving a severe lecture from one of the dearest and kindest friends (Lord Selborne) I ever had. I have read the speech, however, and I gather from it that, although Mr. Gladstone spoke very strongly in favour of eco-

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  nomy, as he always does, he expressly guarded himself from giving an opinion on any particular point.

  PROBATION OF FIRST OFFENDERS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to permit the conditional release of first offenders upon probation in certain cases—Was presented by the Earl of Belmore; read 1a. (No. 3).
  CHRISTCHURCH (SOUTHAMPTON) CHARTER (CORRECTION OF ERROR) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to correct an error in the charter of incorporation granted to the borough of Christ-church, in the county of Southampton—Was presented by the Lord President; read 1a. (No. 4).

  WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for extending the right of voting at Parliamentary elections to duly qualified women—Was presented by the Lord Denman; read 1a. (No. 5).
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.