§ Amendment reported (according to Order).
LORD DENMANsaid, it must be recollected by their Lordships that formerly an ecclesiastic often occupied the Woolsack, and that the term "Lay Peers" applied to all other Lords. In the case of Bradlaugh v. the Queen, if the noble and learned Lord (Lord Halsbury) had been a Peer, instead of counsel, in the case, his opinion would have made the numbers on each side equal; and if the noble and learned Baron (Baron Bramwell) had given his judgment in their Lordships' House, instead of in the Court of Appeal—always counting the vote of himself (Lord Denman)—the appeal must have been dismissed. He had expressed before his regret that the Attorney General (Sir Henry James) and the Solicitor General (Sir Farrer Herschell) had given their opinion that Mr. Bradlaugh was entitled to affirm—as it was, he had paid his fines-—but he (Lord Denman) thought it of importance that a lecturer against religion should not be allowed to affirm, instead of to swear the oath of allegiance. Ministers of the Churches of England and Scotland were 1727 liable to a fine of £500 a-day if they sat and voted as Members of Parliament, the proof of their ministry being that they had officiated in the service of each of those Churches. He believed that Lord Blackburn's judgment was right; and Sir Theodore Martin brought about the action of maintenance against Mr. Newdegate, founded on the above appeal was wrong. He would ask their Lordships' attention to what had been said on the Resolution, by the House of Lords, for the establishment of the Union with Ireland, by the Marquess of Lansdowne in 1799. That noble Lord, great grandfather of the present Marquess, said—
The question is not what religion you shall have, but whether you shall be permitted to have any. It is not whether this or that religion shall be destroyed, but whether all religion shall be destroyed. Under this situation of things, every good man is called upon to join the standard of Jesus Christ—to keep the religion of Jesus Christ; any religion is better than none; at all events, unite to oppose and keep from entering among you those who have no religion, and who are enemies to all."—(Part. Hist. [34] 677–8.)He (Lord Denman) wished to maintain the opinion he had given on a former occasion—that Lay Peers, hearing the whole of a case, might sit and vote.
§
Amendment moved, to insert the following new clause after Clause 4—
The expression 'high judicial office' as defined in the 25th section of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876, shall be deemed to include the office of a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary and the office of a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNE, who had a similar Amendment to propose, assented to that of his noble and learned Friend.
§ Amendment agreed, to.
§ Further Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed as amended. (No. 25.)