Lords Sitting of 16 August 1887

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment (No. 3)* (237); Public Libraries (Scotland) Acts Amendment* (238).
Second Reading—Lieutenancy Clerks Allowances* (231); Duration of Speeches in Parliament (97), negatived.
Third Reading—Metropolitan Board of Works (Money)* (226); Deeds of Arrangement (No. 2)* (230), and passed.
Bill passed—Licensed Premises (Earlier Closing) (Scotland)*(223).

DURATION OF SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT BILL.—(No. 97.)
(The Lord Denman.)
DURATION OF SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT BILL.—(No. 97.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, it would very considerably shorten some speeches in that House at least. There were some noble Lords who had a great facility of expression—the only compliment ever bestowed on him by Earl Granville; but for his own part, when he advocated a cause in which he was greatly interested, he published documents on which he based his case in order not unduly to detain their Lordships' House by quoting the facts in his speech. It had been stated that only the big men spoke in that House, and that, as soon as they had finished, the whole Assembly turned out and went to dinner, or to dress for dinner. The only effect of their Lordships commencing Business at an earlier hour was to enable them to get away sooner.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY): I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the noble Lord appears to be infringing a Standing Order of this House as old as the 17th of May, 1606, which provides that when a Bill has been brought into the House and rejected, no Bill of the same character and argument can be begun in the same House during the same Session.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that this was the same Bill. After having obtained the first reading of it, he had postponed the measure because the newspapers made his speech towards all those likely to be affected by it extremely insolent and offensive. He could not face the public before his speech had appeared in Hansard. It had been commented on in The Scotsman, and there had been a most able leading article upon it. His proposal was that Parliament should follow the example of Diocesan Conferences and Social Science Congresses, where 20 minutes were allowed to readers of papers, and only six or 10 minutes to any other speaker.
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  The provisions of his Bill were as follows:—
  (1.) "From and immediately after the Royal Assent shall have been given to this Act no Privy Councillor in either House of Parliament shall speak above one hour before a notice here-under described shall have been given him, and in the case of Members of either House not being Privy Councillors the time before the same notice shall not exceed a quarter of an hour. (2.) The Clerk of each House shall record by writing the commencement of each speech, and at the end of one hour for Privy Councillors, and of a quarter of an hour for all others, the Clerk shall sound such a Bell as is used at Diocesan Conferences. (3.) In case, after the sounding of such Bell, no other Peer or Member of Parliament shall rise to speak, the Peer or Member of Parliament who may have paused in his speech may resume his speech for either an hour or a quarter of an hour, according to the above regulations."
  He thought that the principle should be affirmed that it was desirable that Members of both Houses of Parliament should be informed when their speeches were getting to an undue length. He had never made a long speech himself, and he trusted that he never might do so. He was sorry that he should have seemed to have been out of Order, and in conclusion he begged to move the second reading of this Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  On Question? Resolved in the negative.

ISLANDS OF THE WESTERN PACIFIC— THE LIQUOR TRAFFIC.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government proposed to take any steps to promote an international understanding with the view of preventing the sale of intoxicating spirits to the Natives of the Western Pacific Islands; also whether there existed any agreement on this subject between Germany and this country which was in force at the present time; and, whether Papers could be laid upon the Table of the House? The noble Earl said, he believed that the subject to which he had referred had been under the notice and consideration of successive Governments, and also that attempts had been made to place some check upon an evil which had tended in a great measure to demoralize the Native population in places where British or other European settlements or Colonies

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  had been established, but it did not appear that much good had as yet resulted. Until some official Papers were laid before the House it would be premature to enter into many details; but there could, he regretted to say, be no doubt—and he believed the fact would be admitted by Colonial Governors—that the trade in intoxicating spirits had been the source of great evil. It had tended to demoralize Native populations, and to hinder, if not, in some instances, to neutralize, efforts which had been made in the cause of civilization. It was, he believed, a notorious fact that European settlers, dating so far back as the time of the Spanish settlements in America, had not infrequently introduced vices and a lower tone of morality than previously existed among the Natives. He did not say that the introduction of intoxicating spirits was the only cause, but it added greatly to it; and thus traders, who invariably followed the steps of those who desired to be the bearers of civilization, had unhappily too often produced the very opposite results of vice and immorality. A great check would doubtless be put upon this if some international understanding could be arrived at by which traffic in spirits and intoxicating liquors could be, if not altogether stopped, at least controlled. The attention of Parliament had of late been called, for political reasons, to the Western Pacific Islands, and he would ask the noble Earl below him whether Papers relating to those Islands on the subject to which he now referred could be laid upon the Table of the House. He would specially mention Papers referring to an agreement which, as he was informed, existed between Germany and this country relative to the sale of intoxicating liquors in the Islands subject to their influence. He might also refer to the Samoa Islands, where German trading in spirits appeared to be carried on to a considerable extent. He would, however, ask the noble Earl not to confine the information which Her Majesty's Government were prepared to give to the places only which he had mentioned. There were, it was to be feared, many others which were suffering from the same evil. He held in his hand the report of a meeting of Native Chiefs recently held at King
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  William's Town, in Cape Colony. One of the speakers, a Caffre Chief, said that he knew it was a custom of the English to sell drink to their subjects; but, he added, why was drink brought into Native localities to impoverish and degrade the people. These words briefly and concisely stated the case which he desired to bring under the notice of Her Majesty's Government. He trusted their Lordships would be put in full possession of information generally on this subject, and especially as regarded the possibility of an international agreement for carrying out a united course of action.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, that Her Majesty's Government were fully alive to the danger of allowing not only the trade in intoxicating liquors, but also that in arms and ammunition, in the Western Pacific Islands. Steps had already been taken by Her Majesty's Government to endeavour to arrive at some international agreement on the subject; but, unfortunately, the Government of the United States did not see its way to enter into such an agreement, and Her Majesty's Government had therefore been compelled to abandon the scheme. Her Majesty's Government would, however, lose no opportunity that might be afforded them for renewing negotiations upon the subject. In the absence of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) he was unable to speak with certainty, but he might, he thought, say that there was no agreement existing with Germany on the subject. Each nation prohibited the sale of intoxicating liquors in its own Colonies and protected territories of the Western Pacific. As to the production of Papers, he was not aware that any draft agreement between this country and Germany was in existence; but any Papers relating to the negotiations to which he had alluded there would be no objection to produce; and he hoped that upon that understanding the noble Earl would not press his request.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.