THIRD READING. (Hansard, 15 August 1887)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
said, he would move to amend Clause 4 by omitting from the Bill certain word which he asked the House to insert in Committee, giving the magistrate, as the licensing authority, discretionary power in the matter of closing public-houses not earlier than 10 o'clock or later than 11 o'clock at night. He thought it only right to state the circumstances in which the Bill was when he consented to make the alteration. When the Bill was introduced into their Lordships' House it proposed that all public- 458 houses in Scotland should close at 10 o'clock. He had the advantage of hearing what could be said for and against the measure by noble Lords on the second reading, and ultimately he succeeded in devising an arrangement which appeared to him to be a fair compromise of the question. He gave Notice, after the second reading, of his intention to introduce an Amendment to the effect stated. No intimation was given by his noble Friend on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) as to what he intended doing. When they came to the Committee stage no Amendment was put down, but he obtained the insertion of the Amendment which he now proposed should be struck out. When they came to the Report stage his noble Friend put down an Amendment excluding from the operation of the Bill towns with a population of 50,000 and upwards, which, virtually operated as a second limitation to the Bill. The Amendment was inserted, and he had to ask their Lordships to dispense with the arrangement which he had proposed. Their Lordships would see what his grievance was. Had the Amendment of his noble Friend appeared side by side with his own he should not have moved his own, for the reason that it appeared to him a second limitation of the measure. That second limitation was one which he could not accept, and under those circumstances he had to ask their Lordships to allow the removal from the Bill of his Amendment.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)
said, what the noble Earl had stated was perfectly true; and he thought the course which the noble Earl adopted in Committee was accepted by their Lordships as a compromise on the Bill as it came up to this House. He (the Marquess of Lothian) accepted the Bill on the second reading, but with the reservation that he would support the Amendment which the noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) had stated he would give Notice of.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
He did not give Notice.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN
said, he thought the question did not admit of much doubt. When he accepted the noble Earl's Amendment he did so under reservation that he should accept it accompanied by the Amendment of which the noble Earl on the Cross Benches gave Notice. He thought it was a pity that the noble Earl on the Cross Benches did not put down, his Amendment for the Committee, so that their Lordships might have had an opportunity of considering them both together. He regretted that the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) now asked to withdraw his Amendment; for he quite agreed with him that it was a compromise. But he could not agree with him that the exemption of the towns with over 50,000 inhabitants took away from the effect of that compromise. It seemed to him that that compromise was an exceedingly valuable one, and it was as valuable in principle now as it was before. The exemption of these towns did not affect the principle, as it would be applied to the rest of the country; and he thought that with regard to many of the towns under 50,000 inhabitants the noble Earl's Amendment would be valuable. On the West Coast, for example, there were certain towns where it would be very desirable for certain periods of the year that licensed premises should be open till after 10 o'clock, although, in other periods of the year, 10 o'clock would be late enough. If the noble Earl's (the Earl of Camperdown's) Amendment was withdrawn, there would be a hard-and-fast line throughout the whole of Scotland for closing at 10 o'clock, except in the towns of over 50,000. He did not think the noble Earl had given a sufficient reason to induce them to allow the Amendment to be withdrawn.

THE EARL OF GALLOWAY
wished to say one word at this moment, especially in connection with the vote he gave on the Report stage. He then voted with his noble Friend opposite, and for once he was opposed to his noble Friend on the Cross Benches. He took the Bill as it then was, and he saw that it enacted that the licensing authorities in every district, whether county or burgh, should determine themselves what the hour of closing should be— 460 whether it should be 10 or 11 o'clock. He could not see, therefore, why his noble Friend on the Cross Benches should think it necessary to enforce the hour of 11 in all towns of over 50,000 inhabitants. Therefore, by his vote he desired to put every district of Scotland under the jurisdiction of this particular licensing authority. Having supported his noble Friend opposite on that occasion when he wanted to have the hour in each district governed by local authority, the noble Earl in this, the last stage, asked to upset that arrangement. Therefore, though he supported him on the last occasion, he should feel it his duty to vote against him on this occasion, because he proposed now to alter his own honestly reforming clause.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
said, after the action their Lordships had taken, he did not propose to make any further Motion with regard to this Bill. As he had already stated to their Lordships, he proposed for their consideration an arrangement which appeared to him to be a very reasonable and fair compromise. That, unfortunately, had not commended itself to their Lordships. Another Amendment had been introduced, which, as he said on the second reading, had given a further limitation to the Bill. It went very much further. It absolutely excluded from the provisions of the Bill the chief towns. An Amendment to the same effect was introduced in the other House; but it was disagreed to by a very large majority of the Scotch Members; and, in the circumstances, he did not propose to make any further Motion on the Bill.

§ THE EARL OF WEMYSS
said, he must express his regret that his noble Friend should have thought it necessary to have practically withdrawn his Bill, because, upon the whole, he thought it very desirable that the measure should not be 461 allowed to drop. At first he was under the impression that the Bill should not have been brought forward at all; but that the promoters should have waited until the Government produced their measure on the whole subject of local government, whenever that might be. Now, he considered that the Bill, as it stood, was a fair compromise; and, in spite of what his noble Friend had said, he believed that it might have worked practically, and, at all events, it would have been a test Bill with regard to the discretionary power of licensing within the certain limits fixed in the measure. It would thus have been exceedingly useful as preparatory to a general measure. He could not but express his great regret that his noble Friend should consider it necessary practically to withdraw the Bill. He desired to know whether the Government intended to take any action with regard to the Bill which was now, in consequence of the course pursued by his noble Friend, in a condition of suspense?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN
said, he thought that the course pursued by the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) was not a very desirable one, and he should like a little time to consider what course, under the circumstances, should be adopted. He therefore did not propose at the present time to take any action with regard to the Bill, but would leave it at its present stage. The Bill would consequently still appear among the Orders of the Day.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
said, he thought the House had some right to insist on a more specific answer as to the intention of the Government. He would appeal to the noble Marquess at the head of the Government for a more definite statement. The proposition of the Bill was perfectly simple, and he thought the noble Marquess ought to give them some definite information on the point. He thought they would admit that they had not much leading from the noble Marquess up to very nearly the last stage of the Bill, and he thought at the point which they had now reached they ought to be told what the Government intended to do.

§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS(The Marquess of SALISBURY)
I have been educated in the careful school of the noble Earl opposite (Earl 462 Granville), which enjoins a Minister never to give an answer to a Question without Notice, and I am afraid on this occasion I must ask time to consider.