§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
§ Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
1690LORD DENMANsaid, he rose to protest against measures of this kind, and he thought that Bank Holidays were not suited to the people of Scotland.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNI should like to call the noble Lord's attention to the fact that he is talking about another Bill altogether—the Agricultural Labourers' Holidays Bill.
LORD DENMANsaid, he was intending to refer to the Licensed Premises Closing Bill. When, last a measure of this kind was before their Lordships' House, the noble Viscount in charge of it proposed to make provision for public-houses in largo towns being kept open later than the houses in smaller towns. That, to his mind, was a very good principle to go upon, but in the present Bill it was entirely ignored. The noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) evidently did not desire to pay much attention to the speeches; he thought to ignore them, and he was trying to extinguish their humble servant, who laboured under the disadvantage of never having been reported. This, to his mind, was a great advantage, as there was an opportunity for him to correct his speeches for Hansard, and he probably avoided uncouth language; but he vowed he had never added to his speeches. He was quite convinced with regard to this measure that it was entirely unnecessary; it had been pronounced unnecessary by a Petition from Dunbar, and had been condemned by Mr. Shirreff, sheriff of Haddington, as likely to increase she been houses. He thought it much better to leave well alone, and not to endanger the Forbes McKenzie Act by an innovation which unsettled everything, and in making the hours dependent upon a debate of the magistrates quite uncertain; and he could not, therefore, understand why their Lordships should proceed with it. They might endeavour to amend it, but those who opposed it would have an opportunity of voting against it on the third reading.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, severally agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Alteration of certificate forms).
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he desired to call attention to the fact that, as 1691 the law now stood, there was a discretionary power in Scotland by which the Justices or Licensing Bodies might close a district, or part of a town, or part of a county, at 9 o'clock if they chose to do so, and he desired to know if this power was affected by the Bill?
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSreplied that he could not say, but he knew that it was absolutely the law, for there had been an appeal to their Lordships' House on the point. The power was applied to a whole town or county, and on an appeal it was decided that the power had been exceeded, and that it could only be exercised with regard to part of a town or part of a county. With regard to the subject generally, he thought it would have been more desirable that the whole licensing question should have been hung up until local government had been dealt with by the Government. What his noble Friend proposed as a great improvement in some parts of Scotland would be simply intolerable in others. In many parts of the country districts it would be simply intolerable that public-houses should be shut up at 10 o'clock of a night, and the same would be the case in large towns. It was his intention to move on the third reading that towns of 50,000 inhabitants in Scotland and upwards should be exempted from the provisions of the Bill. Of some parts of the country it might be said they were like a large Empire. At certain periods of the year in Scotland the sun never set, and it was intolerable that in those districts where golf was largely played too, a man should not be able to get a glass of beer after a certain period of the evening. Therefore there ought to be a large discretionary power vested in the magistrates, and it was essential also that it should be exercised freely by them, not only in the districts to which he had referred, but in the large towns. While approving of the proposal of the noble Lord under the circumstances in which they were placed, he must confess that he did not like the measure at all; but as the Government were willing to let it pass, if they could not get all they wanted they must take what they could get. At the same time, he was desirous that the old power which was in exist- 1692 ence at the present time should not be superseded.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he rose to move the omission of the words "ten of the clock at night of any day," and the insertion of the following words in substitution—"such hour at night of any day, not earlier than ten and not later than eleven, as the licensing authority may direct"—thereby giving the local licensing authorities discretion as to the hour of closing in their respective licensing districts. The Amendment carried oat the arrangement which he had on the second reading of the Bill expressed his willingness to accept. The Amendment had for its object the leaving to the licensing authority in each licensing district in Scotland a discretionary power to make the hour of closing any time they might think best, being not earlier than 10 o'clock at night and not later than 11 o'clock. The Amendment took the present hour of closing of 11 as the latest hour at which the public-houses should be closed, and it took 10 o'clock, which was the hour of closing mentioned in the Bill, as the earliest hour at which the authorities might direct the houses to be closed. It was unnecessary for him to say much to their Lordships in regard to the Amendment, and he had only a few words to add to the remarks he had made the other night. No doubt, a very great deal of public attention had been bestowed on this question of early closing; but he was inclined to agree that it was inexpedient that Parliament should fix one hour for the closing of all public-houses. It was better to be guided by public opinion; yet, if there was any doubt as to what the public opinion of a district was in such matters, the best and most reasonable mode of settling the question was to hand the subject over to the local authorities to decide. Considering all the circumstances, the Amendment offered the best solution of the difficulty in the present instance. The Bill, he understood, was rather anticipatory of legislation upon this subject which was likely to be passed by Parliament within, he hoped, a very short time; and he would only further say that the Amendment was an arrangement which was recommended to the House last year by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) in reference to the Durham Closing Bill, for the Leader 1693 of the House then said that he would hand over to the local authorities the power of allowing them to decide whether the measure should be carried into operation or not.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)Will the noble Lord state what it was that I proposed to hand over?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcould not say, unless it was the carrying out of the provisions of the Bill in question.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYYou only refer to the question of the earlier closing of houses on Sunday evening.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that the noble Marquess, at any rate, accepted the principle of giving a discretionary power to the local authorities, with the further power to return to the former state of affairs if the experiment was unsatisfactory. That was what the Amendment proposed to do, for if the local authorities found the hour for earlier closing they fixed upon was not a success it would be in their power to alter the hour to 11 o'clock or any other time.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)said, that, speaking in his individual capacity, and not as a Member of the Government, he approved of much that had been said by the noble Earl, and particularly that legislation of this kind ought to be postponed, if it was necessary at all, until a Bill dealing with the whole question was introduced into Parliament. But, considering the large amount of support—the almost unanimous support which the measure had received in the other House from the Scotch Members—and also the proposal which was made the other evening that an Amendment such as that which the noble Lord had proposed should be inserted in Committee, he did not wish personally to offer any opposition. He doubted very much whether the Bill would prove very satisfactory when its provisions came to be practically applied. The Local Option proposed to be inserted by the noble Lord was one which on the whole they might accept, although the measure itself was not one which he cared very much for. As the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) had pointed out, there was no excep- 1694 tion made in the case of the large towns, and the Motion which the noble Earl had stated his intention to move on the third reading was one which had his approval. He considered that it would be very injurious to those towns if no exception were made in their case. In saying this he hoped that it would be clearly understood that he had no desire whatever to interfere with the cause of temperance, or that he did not desire to promote it in every way he could. On the contrary, he desired to second, to the utmost possible degree, anything which would tend to further the cause, and his only fear was that class legislation of this kind would have the effect of retarding it; and most people would admit that there were great dangers attending isolated efforts at legislation, of this description. Notwithstanding this, he was not prepared to offer any opposition to the progress of the measure, considering the manner in which it was passed by the other House of Parliament.
§ Amendment moved,
§ In page 2, lines 22 and 37, to leave out ("ten of the clock at night of any day"), and insert, in page 3, line 8 ("such hour at night of any day not earlier than ton, and not later than eleven, as the licensing authority may direct").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he did not altogether sympathize with the remarks made by the Secretary for Scotland (the Marquess of Lothian) or by the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) with regard to the Bill, He did not feel so absolutely certain about early legislation on the question of local government that he should wish measures like the present to be postponed until that time. He, at the same time, quite understood the Earl of Wemyss' contention. The principle which the noble Earl had always tried to go by was that the management of public-houses should be entirely a question of police—that was to say, that there should be no interference with the drink traffic except when it resulted in crime, or in such a state of matters as was likely to lead to the commission of crime. That was an intelligible position. The experiment, he believed, was once tried in Liverpool, when absolutely free trade in 1695 drinking was tried, checked only by the power of the police to hold in check crime and rice of any kind, or such drunkenness as would endanger the community. He was quite certain that that was not a principle on which legislation of this description, could be undertaken, and he approved of the principle of earlier hours. He looked upon every public-house as a separate centre of temptation. There was a great deal of vice and misery and poverty caused by drinking, short of crime, which no police regulations could possibly take any notice of. "With regard to the question of hours. whether public-houses should close at 10 or 11 o'clock, that was a matter of detail. It was quite true that in summer there was practically no night in Rome parts of Scotland, and this year in one part of Scotland he had been able to read small print at midnight. Still, he had never heard of the game of golf being played at that late hour. It appeared to him that large centres of population were exactly the places where the power given by the Bill was required, and he regretted to hear the Notice given by the noble Earl to exempt places with 50,000 inhabitants from the Bill.
§ Amendment agreed to; other Amendments made.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he wished to call attention to the last paragraph, which had reference to the hours during which grocers might keep their premises open. He did not think it would be right at this stage to propose any Amendment, but at the same time it was a matter for Parliament to consider whether all persons dealing in spirituous liquors ought not to close their premises at the same hour. At present, although grocers were compelled to close their premises at the same hour as licensed victuallers, yet for all other purposes they could carry on their trade. It was quite evident that it would be impossible to detect the sale of liquor in small quantities under such circumstances. The present law on the subject gave rise to well-founded complaints on the part of licensed victuallers paid others that it was impossible to know whether or not a grocer who was allowed to keep his premises open after the hour at which the sale of 1696 spirituous liquors must cease was guilty of an infraction of the law.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 5 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Construction of Act).
§ Amendment moved,
§ In page 3, line 27, at end of clause, add—"In this Act the words 'the licensing authority' shall moan the magistrates of a burgh and the justices of the peace of a county in quarter sessions assembled within their districts of jurisdiction respectively."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD BALFOURasked if the noble Earl was quite sure- as to his definition, and whether he had taken any legal advice as to it?
LORD BALFOURsaid, he hardly thought the now clause necessary, for "the licensing authority" was an expression which required no definition. There were two kinds of burghs in Scotland—the Royal, in which the magistrates had the right to license; and the police burghs, in which the magistrates had not the right, but which were under the county. Under these circumstances, he thought the words "the magistrates of a burgh" were likely to mislead, He would not go so far as to oppose the new clause, but he hoped the noble Lord would take a legal opinion before the next stage.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that possibly there was something in the objection of the noble Lord, and he would make inquiries at the Scottish Office on the matter. The County Justices acted as an Appeal Court, and as it was desirable that the matter should be settled once for all by the general licensing authorities, whoever they might be, it had been deemed advisable to insert the words "in quarter sessions assembled,"
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining Clauses agreed to.
§ The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to he printed as amended. (No. 223.)
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSgave Notice that on the third reading he would move: an Amendment to the effect that the Bill "shall not apply to any burgh, town, or 1697 populous place containing 50,000 inhabitants or upwards."