Lords Sitting of 9 August 1887

MINUTES.
SAT FIRST IN PARLIAMENT—The Lord Bagot, after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Settled Land Act (1882) Amendment (220); Stannaries Act (1869) Amendment (221); Turnpike Roads (South Wales) * (207).
Committee—Licensed Premises (Earlier Closing) (Scotland) (183–223).
Report—Criminal Law (Scotland) Procedure (No. 2)* (209).
Third Reading—Margarine (Fraudulent Sale) (205–224), and passed.

LICENSED PREMISES (EARLIER CLOSING) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(The Earl of Camperdown.)

(NO. 183.) COMMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD DENMANsaid, he rose to protest against measures of this kind, and he thought that Bank Holidays were not suited to the people of Scotland.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I should like to call the noble Lord's attention to the fact that he is talking about another Bill altogether—the Agricultural Labourers' Holidays Bill.
LORD DENMANsaid, he was intending to refer to the Licensed Premises Closing Bill. When, last a measure of this kind was before their Lordships' House, the noble Viscount in charge of it proposed to make provision for public-houses in largo towns being kept open later than the houses in smaller towns. That, to his mind, was a very good principle to go upon, but in the present Bill it was entirely ignored. The noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) evidently did not desire to pay much attention to the speeches; he thought to ignore them, and he was trying to extinguish their humble servant, who laboured under the disadvantage of never having been reported. This, to his mind, was a great advantage, as there was an opportunity for him to correct his speeches for Hansard, and he probably avoided uncouth language; but he vowed he had never added to his speeches. He was quite convinced with regard to this measure that it was entirely unnecessary; it had been pronounced unnecessary by a Petition from Dunbar, and had been condemned by Mr. Shirreff, sheriff of Haddington, as likely to increase she been houses. He thought it much better to leave well alone, and not to endanger the Forbes McKenzie Act by an innovation which unsettled everything, and in making the hours dependent upon a debate of the magistrates quite uncertain; and he could not, therefore, understand why their Lordships should proceed with it. They might endeavour to amend it, but those who opposed it would have an opportunity of voting against it on the third reading.
Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, severally agreed to.
Clause 4 (Alteration of certificate forms).
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he desired to call attention to the fact that, as

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the law now stood, there was a discretionary power in Scotland by which the Justices or Licensing Bodies might close a district, or part of a town, or part of a county, at 9 o'clock if they chose to do so, and he desired to know if this power was affected by the Bill?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked in what Act the power was given to which the noble Earl referred?
THE EARL OF WEMYSSreplied that he could not say, but he knew that it was absolutely the law, for there had been an appeal to their Lordships' House on the point. The power was applied to a whole town or county, and on an appeal it was decided that the power had been exceeded, and that it could only be exercised with regard to part of a town or part of a county. With regard to the subject generally, he thought it would have been more desirable that the whole licensing question should have been hung up until local government had been dealt with by the Government. What his noble Friend proposed as a great improvement in some parts of Scotland would be simply intolerable in others. In many parts of the country districts it would be simply intolerable that public-houses should be shut up at 10 o'clock of a night, and the same would be the case in large towns. It was his intention to move on the third reading that towns of 50,000 inhabitants in Scotland and upwards should be exempted from the provisions of the Bill. Of some parts of the country it might be said they were like a large Empire. At certain periods of the year in Scotland the sun never set, and it was intolerable that in those districts where golf was largely played too, a man should not be able to get a glass of beer after a certain period of the evening. Therefore there ought to be a large discretionary power vested in the magistrates, and it was essential also that it should be exercised freely by them, not only in the districts to which he had referred, but in the large towns. While approving of the proposal of the noble Lord under the circumstances in which they were placed, he must confess that he did not like the measure at all; but as the Government were willing to let it pass, if they could not get all they wanted they must take what they could get. At the same time, he was desirous that the old power which was in exist-
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ence at the present time should not be superseded.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he rose to move the omission of the words "ten of the clock at night of any day," and the insertion of the following words in substitution—"such hour at night of any day, not earlier than ten and not later than eleven, as the licensing authority may direct"—thereby giving the local licensing authorities discretion as to the hour of closing in their respective licensing districts. The Amendment carried oat the arrangement which he had on the second reading of the Bill expressed his willingness to accept. The Amendment had for its object the leaving to the licensing authority in each licensing district in Scotland a discretionary power to make the hour of closing any time they might think best, being not earlier than 10 o'clock at night and not later than 11 o'clock. The Amendment took the present hour of closing of 11 as the latest hour at which the public-houses should be closed, and it took 10 o'clock, which was the hour of closing mentioned in the Bill, as the earliest hour at which the authorities might direct the houses to be closed. It was unnecessary for him to say much to their Lordships in regard to the Amendment, and he had only a few words to add to the remarks he had made the other night. No doubt, a very great deal of public attention had been bestowed on this question of early closing; but he was inclined to agree that it was inexpedient that Parliament should fix one hour for the closing of all public-houses. It was better to be guided by public opinion; yet, if there was any doubt as to what the public opinion of a district was in such matters, the best and most reasonable mode of settling the question was to hand the subject over to the local authorities to decide. Considering all the circumstances, the Amendment offered the best solution of the difficulty in the present instance. The Bill, he understood, was rather anticipatory of legislation upon this subject which was likely to be passed by Parliament within, he hoped, a very short time; and he would only further say that the Amendment was an arrangement which was recommended to the House last year by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) in reference to the Durham Closing Bill, for the Leader

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of the House then said that he would hand over to the local authorities the power of allowing them to decide whether the measure should be carried into operation or not.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): Will the noble Lord state what it was that I proposed to hand over?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcould not say, unless it was the carrying out of the provisions of the Bill in question.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: You only refer to the question of the earlier closing of houses on Sunday evening.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that the noble Marquess, at any rate, accepted the principle of giving a discretionary power to the local authorities, with the further power to return to the former state of affairs if the experiment was unsatisfactory. That was what the Amendment proposed to do, for if the local authorities found the hour for earlier closing they fixed upon was not a success it would be in their power to alter the hour to 11 o'clock or any other time.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)said, that, speaking in his individual capacity, and not as a Member of the Government, he approved of much that had been said by the noble Earl, and particularly that legislation of this kind ought to be postponed, if it was necessary at all, until a Bill dealing with the whole question was introduced into Parliament. But, considering the large amount of support—the almost unanimous support which the measure had received in the other House from the Scotch Members—and also the proposal which was made the other evening that an Amendment such as that which the noble Lord had proposed should be inserted in Committee, he did not wish personally to offer any opposition. He doubted very much whether the Bill would prove very satisfactory when its provisions came to be practically applied. The Local Option proposed to be inserted by the noble Lord was one which on the whole they might accept, although the measure itself was not one which he cared very much for. As the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) had pointed out, there was no excep-
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tion made in the case of the large towns, and the Motion which the noble Earl had stated his intention to move on the third reading was one which had his approval. He considered that it would be very injurious to those towns if no exception were made in their case. In saying this he hoped that it would be clearly understood that he had no desire whatever to interfere with the cause of temperance, or that he did not desire to promote it in every way he could. On the contrary, he desired to second, to the utmost possible degree, anything which would tend to further the cause, and his only fear was that class legislation of this kind would have the effect of retarding it; and most people would admit that there were great dangers attending isolated efforts at legislation, of this description. Notwithstanding this, he was not prepared to offer any opposition to the progress of the measure, considering the manner in which it was passed by the other House of Parliament.
Amendment moved,
In page 2, lines 22 and 37, to leave out ("ten of the clock at night of any day"), and insert, in page 3, line 8 ("such hour at night of any day not earlier than ton, and not later than eleven, as the licensing authority may direct").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he did not altogether sympathize with the remarks made by the Secretary for Scotland (the Marquess of Lothian) or by the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) with regard to the Bill, He did not feel so absolutely certain about early legislation on the question of local government that he should wish measures like the present to be postponed until that time. He, at the same time, quite understood the Earl of Wemyss' contention. The principle which the noble Earl had always tried to go by was that the management of public-houses should be entirely a question of police—that was to say, that there should be no interference with the drink traffic except when it resulted in crime, or in such a state of matters as was likely to lead to the commission of crime. That was an intelligible position. The experiment, he believed, was once tried in Liverpool, when absolutely free trade in

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drinking was tried, checked only by the power of the police to hold in check crime and rice of any kind, or such drunkenness as would endanger the community. He was quite certain that that was not a principle on which legislation of this description, could be undertaken, and he approved of the principle of earlier hours. He looked upon every public-house as a separate centre of temptation. There was a great deal of vice and misery and poverty caused by drinking, short of crime, which no police regulations could possibly take any notice of. "With regard to the question of hours. whether public-houses should close at 10 or 11 o'clock, that was a matter of detail. It was quite true that in summer there was practically no night in Rome parts of Scotland, and this year in one part of Scotland he had been able to read small print at midnight. Still, he had never heard of the game of golf being played at that late hour. It appeared to him that large centres of population were exactly the places where the power given by the Bill was required, and he regretted to hear the Notice given by the noble Earl to exempt places with 50,000 inhabitants from the Bill.
Amendment agreed to; other Amendments made.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he wished to call attention to the last paragraph, which had reference to the hours during which grocers might keep their premises open. He did not think it would be right at this stage to propose any Amendment, but at the same time it was a matter for Parliament to consider whether all persons dealing in spirituous liquors ought not to close their premises at the same hour. At present, although grocers were compelled to close their premises at the same hour as licensed victuallers, yet for all other purposes they could carry on their trade. It was quite evident that it would be impossible to detect the sale of liquor in small quantities under such circumstances. The present law on the subject gave rise to well-founded complaints on the part of licensed victuallers paid others that it was impossible to know whether or not a grocer who was allowed to keep his premises open after the hour at which the sale of
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spirituous liquors must cease was guilty of an infraction of the law.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 8 (Construction of Act).
Amendment moved,
In page 3, line 27, at end of clause, add—"In this Act the words 'the licensing authority' shall moan the magistrates of a burgh and the justices of the peace of a county in quarter sessions assembled within their districts of jurisdiction respectively."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD BALFOURasked if the noble Earl was quite sure- as to his definition, and whether he had taken any legal advice as to it?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he had not.
LORD BALFOURsaid, he hardly thought the now clause necessary, for "the licensing authority" was an expression which required no definition. There were two kinds of burghs in Scotland—the Royal, in which the magistrates had the right to license; and the police burghs, in which the magistrates had not the right, but which were under the county. Under these circumstances, he thought the words "the magistrates of a burgh" were likely to mislead, He would not go so far as to oppose the new clause, but he hoped the noble Lord would take a legal opinion before the next stage.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that possibly there was something in the objection of the noble Lord, and he would make inquiries at the Scottish Office on the matter. The County Justices acted as an Appeal Court, and as it was desirable that the matter should be settled once for all by the general licensing authorities, whoever they might be, it had been deemed advisable to insert the words "in quarter sessions assembled,"
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Clauses agreed to.
The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to he printed as amended. (No. 223.)
THE EARL OF WEMYSSgave Notice that on the third reading he would move: an Amendment to the effect that the Bill "shall not apply to any burgh, town, or

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populous place containing 50,000 inhabitants or upwards."
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I wish to say that I shall oppose that proposal.

SETTLED LAND ACT (1882) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 220.)
(The Lord Macnaghten.)

SECOND READING
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, road.
LORD MACNAGHTEN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, explained that it reproduced an important provision which had been included in the Land Transfer Bill. That measure, as their Lordships would remember, was approved by them, but subsequently abandoned in "another place."
Moved, "That the Bill be now read '2a"—(The Lord Macnaghten.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)supported the Motion. His main feeling with respect to this Bill was that of a bereaved parent; for the j measure was in reality part of the Transfer Bill which he had. introduced in their Lordships' House earlier in the Session.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

STANNARIES ACT (1869) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 216.)
(The Lord. Steward.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE EARL OF MOUNT-EDGCUMBE (LORD STEWARD of the HOUSEHOLD), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the Bill had come from the other House. It had reference to the mines within the Stannaries of Devonshire and Cornwall. An Act was passed in 1869 reconstituting the machinery of the Stannaries Court, and provision was also made for securing to the working miners employed by a Company priority as creditors in the event of the Company being wound up. By the present Bill it was proposed to protect the minors still further by assuring the payment of their wages even when a man was distrained upon. The
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wages would, in fact, constitute a first charge upon the mine. The Bill had met with general support from landowners and mine-owners. There were clauses referring to the protection of working miners and to the priority of wages, which were to be paid fortnightly instead of monthly, either in money or in "subsist;" other clauses gave the miners control over the deductions from wages and entitled them to appoint check-takers. The Bill also provided for the registration in the Stannaries of all mortgages, leases, and assignments of leases, so as to provide a greater security than now existed for all those who had to do with mining affairs. Periodical meetings of mine-owners were also prescribed, and the machinery of the Stannaries Courts were, to some extent, remodelled. He trusted their Lordships would give the Bill a second reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Steward.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

MARGARINE (FRAUDULENT SALE) BILL.—(No. 205.)
(The Lord Basing.)

THIRD READING.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a"—(The Lord Basing.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments.
On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"
LORD DENMAN, in moving to leave out the syllable "marga" wherever the word "margarine" occurred, so that the substance referred to should be called "rine," said, that was the name given by the trade to substances known as butterine and margarine. He produced the Amendment which he had waived on the Report, and said that he was deeply interested in this question. He had received this morning the monthly account of butter sold to the provision merchant. It began with 8d. per lb. and ended with 1966 s. 2d. per lb. He had paid 14 s. 8d. for carriage of the butter to Derby; he had been offered 1966 s. 6d. per lb. in Ashbourne for the last two weeks,

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but preferred not to interfere with his immediate neighbours, lie had seen Mr. Law, of Edinburgh, and London, and had inquired as to mixed chicory and coffee, He found that if sold as coffee it was warranted genuine; but if mixed in any way it had to be stamped with a simplestamp—which he produced. He hoped that if the Bill went unaltered to the House of Commons an Amendment on their Lordships' Amendment might be inserted to make the Bill workable.
Moved, In page 1, in title, to leave out ("Marga.")—(The Lord Denman.)
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYwas not in a position to support the noble Lord; but lie much preferred the name proposed by the noble Lord to that which their Lordships had fixed to it, for it was a new name distinctly for the article. Margarine had nothing whatever to do with the article, which, up to the present, had been known as butterine.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNwanted to know what the real margarine was to be called? Some distinctive name ought to be given to the substance dealt with by the Bill, and in Lancashire it was known as "rine," which was probably not a bad name.
LORD BASINGsaid, he did not apprehend any difficulty, as what the noble Lord called the "real margarine" was only the subject of wholesale dealings, and was unknown to the retailer or consumer at all. He hoped their Lordships would retain the word "margarine."
LORD BRAMWELLthought that some alteration ought to be made. He doubted whether the true "margarine" was within the Bill at all. The Bill only included matters which were prepared in imitation of butter. Now, true margarine was not a bit like butter. Thus the Act passed for the prevention of the fraudulent sale of margarine would not touch margarine at all.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that the difficulty had somehow been got over in America. The term "oleomargarine" comprehended there by law margarine, butterine, suine, and a variety of other compounds. That was the legal designation in the United States.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, that if his noble Friend went to a Division he should have no hesitation in supporting him. He preferred a true definition like
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"rine" to an absolutely false one like "margarine."
LORD FITZGERALDhoped their Lordships would not accept tin; Amendment, which he regarded as another attempt by the pertinacious opponents of the Bill to defeat it.
On Question, "That ('Margarine') stand part of the Bill?"
Their Lordships divided:—Contents 29; Not-Contents 9: Majority 20.
On the Motion of The Earl of WEMYSS, the following new Clause inserted:—
"Where an employer is charged with an offence against this Act he shall be entitled, upon information duly laid by him, to have any other person whom lie charges as the actual offender brought before the Court at the time appointed for hearing the charge, and if, after the commission of the offence has been proved, the employer proves to the satisfaction of the Court that he had used due diligence to enforce the execution of this Act, and that the said other person had committed the offence in question without his knowledge, consent, or connivance, the said other person shall be summarily convicted of such offence, and the employer shall be exempt from any penalty."
Clause 7 (Power of officer of local authority to inspect manufactory).
LORD HOUGHTON LORD HOUGHTON moved, as an Amendment, that the Inspector should be the chief officer of police.
Amendment moved, at end of Clause, to add—"The Inspector shall be the chief officer of police,"—(The Lord Houghton.)
LORD BASINGsaid, he objected to the word "chief."
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSthen moved the rejection of the clause, which provided for the inspection by an officer of the manufacture of margarine. He considered the clause unprecedented and uncalled for, considering the other provisions of the Bill.
Moved, To leave out Clause 7.—(The Earl of Wemyss.)
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL(Viscount CRANBROOK)said, he thought his noble Friend in charge of the Bill might very well agree to the omission of this clause. He could not imagine what the object of the clause was. Power was given under the Bill

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to anybody to manufacture this material, and to make it of any tiling they pleased. Therefore, what an Inspector would have to do he could not imagine. He thought it was useless to keep such a clause in the Bill.
LORD BASINGsaid, he had no objection to the clause being struck out, although the inspection of the manufacture of butterine had been invited by the manufacturers. But even with the omission of the clause that desire could still be gratified. There was a precedent for the clause furnished by the Alkali Acts.
Motion agreed to.
Clause struck out.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons; and to be printed as amended. (No. 224.)

PARLIAMENT—THE CONSTITUTION OF THIS HOUSE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBEEY: My Lords, I beg to give Notice that early next Session I shall call attention to the constitution of this House, and move a Resolution.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.