Lords Sitting of 8 August 1887

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Settled Land Act (1882) Amendment * (220); Stannaries Act (1869) Amendment* (216); Trustee Savings Banks* (221).
Second Reading—Agricultural Labourers' Holidays (Scotland)* (212).
Committee—Truck* (179–222); Criminal Law (Scotland) Procedure (No. 2) (re-comm.)* (209).
Third Reading—Coroners * (210), and passed.
Royal Assent—Water Companies (Regulation of Powers) [50 & 51 Vict. c. 21]; Public Libraries Acts Amendment (No. 2) [50 & 51 Vict. c. 22]; Incumbents Resignation Act (1871) Amendment [50 & 51 Vict. c. 23]: Crofters Holdings (Scotland) [50 & 51 Vict. c. 24]; First Offenders [50 & 51 Vict. c. 25]; Allotments and Cottage Gardens Compensation [50 & 51 Vict. c. 26]; Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) [50 & 51 Vict. c. 27].
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—Royal Assent—Public Health (Scotland) (Cowdenbeath Water) [50 & 51 Vict. c. cxliv]; Public Health (Scotland) (Duntocher and Dalmuir Water) [50 & 51 Vict. c. cxlv]; Local Go
1496
vernment (Ireland) (Dublin, &c.) [50 & 51 Vict. c. cli]; Gas and Water [50,& 51 Vict. c. clvii]; Pier and 5 Harbour (No. 2) [50 & 51 Vict. c. clviii] Local Government (Ireland) (Ballyshannon, &c) [50 & 51 Vict. c. clix].

THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION— PROPOSED REMOVAL—WIMBLEDON COMMON.—OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS, in rising to call the attention of the House to the proposed removal of the National Rifle Association from Wimbledon Common, said, that the wise use made by the Admiralty of the Fleet had taught a very useful lesson—the lesson that we could not depend for the inviolability of our vast ports and shores simply on what was called our first line of defence—namely, the Fleet. As General Brackenbury recently pointed out, it was necessary in organizing a system of sound national defence, as regarded our commercial ports and dockyards, to rely mainly upon our Reserve Forces. Of these, owing to their number—something over 200,000 effectives—the Volunteers were now the main element. In 1803, after the threat of invasion, a Volunteer Force arose that numbered 100,000; but when the fear of invasion passed away they also passed away. But the movement of 1859 sprang from the patriotism and public spirit of the people, and instead of falling away in a few years it had gone on increasing in number and efficiency, and in everything that constituted an effective military force. Why was this? It was partly, no doubt, owing to the patriotism and public spirit of the people; but it was also largely owing to the attraction that there now was in rifle shooting, and the friendly rivalry which existed, and the great improvement in small arms. Those who were engaged in advancing the Volunteer movement came to this conclusion—that this rivalry gave an element of permanence to the Force, and that it was desirable to establish a great National Rifle Association. It was also early seen how important it was to attend to the shooting of the men, so that this might be not only a nation of Volunteers but of riflemen, and the National Rifle Association was accordingly formed in 1800. The Association having carefully considered the question,

1497
came to the conclusion that no place was better suited for the object they had in view than. Wimbledon Common. Its advantages were that it was attractive in itself; it was near London; and there was an enormous tract of ground, and great care had been taken to insure safety—as regarded the general public—in the laying out of butts and ranges. They desired to attract everyone, and to mix classes and masses on the same ground. Aliberal allowance had always been made to the tenant of the ground where the bullets might fall, to compensate him for any loss in connection, with his agricultural operations. Wimbledon was secured in 1860. The success of the Association had been beyond the fondest hopes of its founders. Since then the total sum received from all sources up to the end of 1886 was £532,865, and out of this £251,876 had been given as prizes and pools; £3,743 had been spent on the purchase of freehold buildings, and £39,522 had been laid out in plant. The working expenses and general administration had taken £224,065. The amount of the Association's investments was £13,357. The prizes given were numerous and costly. In 1860 they were represented by a money value of £2,069, which had increased to £15,000 in 1886. The additional private prizes amounted to a money value of £5,000. The growth of the Association was also rendered plain by a comparison of the entries in 1860 and in 1886. For the Queen's Prize competition in the former year the entries were 299; in 1886 they were 2,463. For the St. George's competition the entries in 1862 were 98; in 1886 they were 2,366. The total entries in 1860 were 1,266; by 1886 they had grown to 40,568. Among the teams that competed at Wimbledon were 17 public school teams and teams from the Cape, Canada, and India. The example of the Association had been followed throughout the country and the Empire, and in 1886 they had 79 federated County Associations and 54 Colonial and Indian Associations. It had also been followed by other nations—France, Germany, and Italy, each of which countries was promoting a similar system—but he believed ours was the only country in which the success of such associations was the result, not of Government or State assistance, but of private indi-
1498
vidual enterprize. Not only did the Volunteers shoot at Wimbledon, but representatives of the Regulars, the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Navy were encouraged to shoot there. The Association had done good in other ways, and he attributed largely to its instrumentality the improvements that had been effected in small arms. But all along there had been a "little rift within the lute." Unfortunately for the Association it did not enjoy fixity of tenure. Its tenure of the present ground depended largely upon the goodwill of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief (the Duke of Cambridge), who had kindly allowed firing in the direction of his property. In 1870 the Council of the Association gave an undertaking to vacate Wimbledon when required to do so. He (the Earl of Wemyss) had, while at Cannes, read in the newspapers with dismay that His Royal Highness had intimated at the annual meeting of the Association that this must be their last meeting at Wimbledon, and that he felt compelled to call upon the Association to fulfil that promise in consequence of the danger caused by the practice with long-range rifles. That announcement, indeed, had been received with dismay, as it was feared that it meant the death-knell of the Association as a National Association as it had hitherto existed. He felt that it would be a great national misfortune if the field of the Association's work were changed, and that belief was shared by all who were connected with the Volunteer Force. The Earl of Wharncliffe had written the following letter to him on the subject:—
"I see that you are to call the attention of the House of Lords on Monday to the proposed removal of the annual meeting of the National Rifle Association from Wimbledon to some other quarter. I can conceive nothing more fatal to the encouragement of rifle shooting, both by the Volunteers and Englishmen generally, than the change from Wimbledon to another spot, as none can he found so available for the public generally, or be reached so quickly and cheaply as Wimbledon Common. Many men look forward to their Wimbledon week either as residents in camp or as shooting visitors all the year round, and a spirit of friendly feeling among all classes and nationalities of Volunteers and of interest in their performances is thereby kept up throughout the country. The camp has now lost the character of being for some individuals a long picnic, which was at one time the case, and is a real

1499
working gathering of men devoted to rifle shooting. The harmless amusements aftėr evening gun fire, which have never caused any disturbance or scandal, also serve to attract competitors to Wimbledon. I think that removal elsewhere would seriously damp the enthusiasm and ardour for rifle shooting which obtains at Wimbledon, and would probably lead ere long to the death of the National Rifle Association, after which melancholy event you may fairly expect the Volunteer movement to decline in numbers and popularity."
He had also received communications from Lord Burton, and from former Presidents of the Association, expressing regret at the threatened removal, and which Lord Burton feared would make the Association's meeting sink to the level of a Provincial gathering. From the earliest the locality of Wimbledon and its proximity to London led to the annual meeting being largely attended by members of the public of all classes, with many accompanying pleasant social gatherings around the camp fire. The entertainments provided by his noble Friend and others, and the other attractions of the meeting, made the camp one of the pleasantest resorts near London during the summer. None of these advantages were possessed by Pirbright or Hassock's Gate, which were the alternative places suggested. Could any man suppose for a moment that Volunteers from the North, of Scotland, who now came to shoot at Wimbledon, or to spend a pleasant fortnight in London, would care to go to Pirbright, which was a desert, or to Hassock's Gate? Those who were in favour of the change did not appreciate or understand that one of the main objects of the meeting was to interest every class in the community, from the highest to the lowest, in rifle shooting. He, therefore, respectfully entered his protest on public and national grounds against the change if it could possibly be avoided. Why was it to be removed? His Royal Highness had in his speech given his reasons for asking the Association to fulfil the undertaking they gave in 1870. His Royal Highness thought it desirable, in the interests of the neighbourhood and the safety of the people about there, that it should be removed. They were all greatly indebted to His Royal Highness for the assistance he had given to the National Rifle Association, and he (the Earl of Wemyss) hoped to be able to satisfy him that the danger was not so great as he imagined, and that the
1500
neighbourhood itself did not look upon the National Rifle Association with the hostility which His Royal Highness thought they were looked upon by them. As to the danger, he would remind the House that since the institution of the camp there had been, scarcely any accidents directly attributable to the meeting, and none of a fatal character. It was true that one man was shot; but that was because some firing took place at a pasteboard target, and the shot penetrated both target and man. During the 27 years of their existence there had not been a single accident to anyone off the grounds. That was a wonderful immunity, considering that last year alone it had been roughly estimated that some 500,000 shots were fired in the course of the meeting; and if they were to multiply that figure by 10 or 15, they might get some idea of the total number of shots that had been fired on the Common at their meetings, and some idea also of the safety and of danger there. If Wimbledon was dangerous with the precaution they took, it was dangerous elsewhere. Therefore, if men were not to be allowed to let off their rifles unless there was to be absolute certainty that there was no possibility of accident, they would be shut up at once. But His Royal Highness even in that district engaged in cover shooting. Was there no danger in that sport? There was danger in all sports—hunting, steeple-chasing, and everything else—but he maintained that he had shown that the danger at Wimbledon had been reduced to a very minimum by the precautions which had been taken. The other reason urged for the removal of the National Rifle Association from Wimbledon was its disagreeableness and annoyance to the neighbourhood. He admitted that Wimbledon was a delighful place for residence; but supposing the villa holders were opposed to the meeting, which they were not, the Association was there first; therefore, the villa holders came there knowing the National Rifle Association was there, with whatever its concomitants might be, pleasant or disagreeable. Then the meeting lasted only for a fortnight, including practically but two Sundays, every year, and nothing like a crowd came down of anything like a disagreeable character. The Association did what it could to got rid of any evils in

1501
this respect, and they were prepared to extend their efforts. With reference to the feeling of the residents, it was by no means all the residents who objected. He had received a letter from n. well known resident—Mr. Trelawny Boodle—who said that although his house faced Wimbledon Common and was not far from the annual camp, he and his family experienced no inconvenience whatever from the yearly gathering, and that there were local advantages from the presence of the camp. It afforded a change from suburban routine, brought business to trades people, enabled people to let their houses, and prevented overbuilding along the Kingston Road and Coombe Wood; that he considered that the removal of the camp from. Wimbledon would be a blow to the Volunteer movement and to the National Rifle Association; and that, therefore, it would be a national calamity which he sincerely trusted would not occur. That was the view taken by one resident of Wimbledon. He (the Earl of Wemyss) knew he was touching on delicate ground; but one ought not to be afraid when one's conscience was clear. The Association was enormously indebted to the illustrious Duke, who became its President on Lord Herbert's death, had given prizes, diligently attended all the meetings, and from the first manifested a strong interest in its welfare. He was perfectly certain that if His Royal Highness would be satisfied with the reasons which he had given for the retention of the camp at Wimbledon, and his action was directed, not to asking the Association to fulfil the letter of its bond, but to enabling it to remain at Wimbledon—meeting as far as possible the objections which His Royal Highness had made at the United Service Institution—HisRoyal Highness would, if possible, gain an even greater popularity than he now enjoyed. He would conclude by saying that he considered it his national duty to bring this subject before their Lordships. Happily, it was a subject which was outside Party politics, and his noble Friends on both sides of the House would, he believed, take the same view, and he hoped this combined opinion would have the effort of avoiding or warding off what he could not but think the removal from Wimbledon of the National Rifle Association would be—nothing short of a national
1502
calamity, affecting very seriously the numbers, and, possibly, the very existence, of the Volunteer Force. He moved that the removal of the National Rifle Association from Wimbledon Common is a question of national importance, deserving the serious attention of Her Majesty's Government.
Moved, "That the removal of the National Rifle Association from Wimbledon Common is a question of national importance, and deserves the serious attention of Her Majesty's Government."—(The Earl of Wemyss)
THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF (The Duke of CAMBRIDGE): I am quite aware that the question brought forward by my noble Friend (the Earl of Wemyss) is an important one, and that it should be treated with every care. I am very anxious that your Lordships should understand that I do not put forward my personal interest in the matter; but I consider that there are reasons which make it necessary, unfortunately, that the meeting of the National Rifle Association should be held elsewhere. My noble Friend has said everything that could possibly be said in favour of the Association, and I agree that every word he has uttered is correct. Still, I do not come to the conclusion at which my noble Friend has arrived, that it is absolutely necessary for the Association to remain at Wimbledon. Your Lordships will decide as you like, and I will leave the House as soon as I have concluded my observations, and I hope everybody will say exactly what he thinks. I have no wish at all to interfere. I can assure my noble Friend that I entirely agree with him that the National Rifle Association has taken most extraordinary precautions to prevent accidents, and I believe there has been no external accident, though but for those precautions there would have been accidents every year. Not a single year during the 27 years they have been shooting there but I have wished them to go elsewhere. Yet I have been silent, because I was as anxious as my noble Friend to see this institution assume a national character. Its removal might for the moment have a material effect; but I do not think that it would in any respect ultimately upset or damage the great interest which the nation has in this annual gathering. I can only tell my; noble Friend what has come to my knowledge. Every year a considerable pro-

1503
portion of bullets go through the whole of the ground behind the butts. Now, I ask your Lordships whether that is a proper condition of things? Wimbledon is really now becoming London. Not only is London growing in that direction, but the villa, and even the town, population are extending in every direction. If the National Rifle Association expect long to remain at Wimbledon I believe they will find themselves very much mistaken, because the neighbourhood must extend and houses must be built; and all I can say is that I should he very sorry to live in any house within the neighbourhood of or behind those butts where they shoot. This is the present condition of things; and this is the only reason why I have certainly expressed a hope that they should go elsewhere. I have not pressed the Association. I gave notice that they might shoot this year. They have asked me to give a further year, and I have willingly assented. I have no wish, as I said, to press them at all; but I wish to impress upon them that I think they ought to find another range less dangerous than Wimbledon. The place is so unsafe that it has to be guarded all round. I know that one of the residents happened to go into their garden, and was in the act of picking a flower, when a bullet whistled past their head, though, fortunately, no accident occurred. This was a person who lived just behind the butts. Now, would any of your Lordships like to run a risk of that sort? I go further, and I say that all the ranges near London are most dangerous. Even with the small amount of shooting at Wormwood Scrubbs it is, I consider, dangerous; and surely at this great gathering at Wimbledon, with an immense number of men assembled, many of them most anxious to do well, hut many of them careless, it is almost impossible to prevent risk of accident. All I wish your Lordships to understand is that I would in no way damage the National Rifle Association. I am its President. When I suggested the removal of the range I suggested that they should elect another President; but they very handsomely re-elected me, and I am very grateful for it. This, however, is not a question of the National Rifle Association, but of the safety of the range to be used, and I warn your Lordships that the range at Wimbledon is not safe. 1504
There was talk about considerable outlay on the butts at Wimbledon, and I thought it would be very unfair if I did not frankly say—" Do not spend your money on butts at Wimbledon, because I think you will have to go elsewhere." Consequently this year I gave the notice. My noble Friend says they could not go anywhere else, but I would remind my noble Friend that the Royal National Artillery Association hold very successful meetings at Shoeburyness, and if that is not an out-of-the-way place I do not know what is——
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: That is a different thing.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: I cannot at all see why there is any difficulty in going to Pirbright; but I do not adhere to Pirbright—there is Hassock's Gate. People go to Good-wood and to Epsom to see the races, and why should they not go a little further than Wimbledon for the shooting, which is of the greatest national importance and of the greatest possible value. As to Pirbright, which has been mentioned, I have no reason to think it is at all a bad place. Hassock's Gate I know-nothing about, but there is more range accommodation at Pirbright than at Wimbledon. Lord Spencer, Lord Brownlow, Lord Wantage, and Lord Wemyss have done everything in their power to make Wimbledon agreeable by inviting the Prince of Wales and others, and I dare say yon will find people ready to sacrifice to some extent their convenience, even to go to a place like Pirbright. I speak of Pirbright, because, perhaps, there Her Majesty's Government might be of some use to the National Rifle Association. It comes to this, whether we are to have a range or a "raree" show? If a raree show is agreeable, then Wimbledon is the proper place, but I think the feeling now is in favour of good shooting competition, and where-ever that takes place you will always find riflemen, although you may not find a smart company. The question is whether Wimbledon is a proper place for the National Rifle Association to hold its annual gatherings at. I believe that if my noble Friend and others, and the Council of the Association, were to put their heads together they would be able to find quite as good a place as Wimbledon, and one which was not dangerous in any respect. My Lords, I have said

1505
my say. I thought it was only fair that the matter should be placed in a proper light by those who take an opposite view to that of my noble Friend. He agreed with everything his noble Friend had said, except his view that there was no other place but Wimbledon where the National Rifle Association meeting could be conducted as it was. I go thoroughly with my noble Friend in wishing to keep up the National Rifle Association, and I will do anything and everything I can to help and maintain it; but I differ from my noble Friend as to its being impossible to find a suitable range to take the place of Wimbledon, which is a most dangerous piece of ground for this most useful and most valuable annual gathering.
LORD WANTAGEsaid, he was desirous to put the House in possession of a few circumstances which were necessary for the adequate comprehension of the case. Previous to 1870 the National Rifle Association held their annual shooting meetings on Wimbledon Common by permission of Lord Spencer, the then lord of the manor. When Lord Spencer made over his right to the commoners, it was stipulated that the National Rifle Association should continue to use it for their annual meeting, under certain terms that were embodied in an Act of Parliament. One of two clauses in this Act provided that, in the event of the National Rifle Association being dispossessed of their rights over the common pecuniary compensation should be made to them for losses sustained, and for money expended. At the same time that this Act of Parliament was obtained the National Rifle Association entered into an agreement with his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, who had just addressed their Lordships with so much good taste and feeling. His Royal Highness's land at Coombe adjoined Wimbledon Common, and was liable to be somewhat affected by bullets flying over it, and it was agreed that the Association should withdraw whenever called upon by the noble Duke to do so. The present crisis had arisen not from any action taken by the people of Wimbledon, but from the Duke having given notice that he demanded the fulfilment of the engagement entered into between himself and the National Rifle Association—namely, that Wimbledon Common should be given up. The National Rifle As-
1506
sociation had asked His Royal Highness for a year's grace, which he had granted to them. But after next year, unless a fresh arrangement could meanwhile be made, the Association would be compelled to seek other rifle ranges and to hold their meetings elsewhere. The Association were fully conscious of the obligations they owed to His Royal Highness for the facilities he had hitherto afforded them, and without which the Wimbledon meetings could not have been held. His Royal Highness had generously done on a large scale for the National Rifle Association, what other landowners throughout the country had done for local Volunteer Corps; and in all honour and good faith such liberal concessions should not be taken advantage of in the direction of further claims. But so singularly unanimous a feeling prevailed among Volunteers and the shooting public in favour of Wimbledon above all other possible sites that an obligation seemed imposed upon those responsible for the management of the Association to make every effort to secure its retention. Clearly, however, nothing could be done unless His Royal Highness was willing to give the matter favourable consideration, and to agree to some new arrangement whereby his pecuniary rights should not suffer and full compensation be given him for that portion of his land the value of which for building purposes was likely to be affected. Should His Royal Highness consent to any such arrangement the funds necessary for the purchase of property must be sought for in a grant of public money which might be supplemented by contributions from Volunteers and others interested in maintaining what had become a national institution of 28 years' standing. There was reason to believe that the people of Wimbledon and the neighbourhood looked with no favourable eye upon the prospects of land in close proximity to their common being built over, and they apparently preferred to keep the Volunteers at Wimbledon rather than have the slopes of Coombe covered with houses. On the other hand, it could hardly be expected that either the Government or the public should advance anything like the sum required for the purchase of the land in question, unless something more than an annual fortnight's use of the rifle ranges could be

1507
secured. The National Rifle Association should endeavour to obtain from the commoners of Wimbledon, in consideration of the Coombe land, which would be permanently added to the common, the concession of the use of a portion of their common for permanent ranges. These ranges, which would be used by Volunteers throughout the shooting season, would be limited in number and would be rendered absolutely safe by the construction of a system of screens which would effectually prevent bullets from passing beyond the limits of the butts. Such ranges in close proximity to London would be of immense advantage to the Volunteers of the metropolis who, year by year, were being excluded from the use of ranges they had hitherto enjoyed. Without some such facilities the practice of rifle shooting necessary to the efficiency—indeed, to the very existence—of the Volunteer movement would become impossible except under circumstances involving almost insuperable difficulties of expenditure and of transit to distant ranges.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he would ask leave to withdraw his Motion, on the ground that the withdrawal would permit the subject to be discussed with greater freedom, and enable some of their Lordships to take part in the discussion who otherwise would not do so.
EARL SPENCERsaid, that as his name had been frequently mentioned during this discussion, he should like to say a few words on the subject. He was associated with his noble Friend (the Earl of Wemyss) in the original formation of the National Rifle Association, and it was his lot, as lord of the manor of Wimbledon, first to introduce the Association there, and he had always felt the deepest interest in its prosperity. At the present moment he was no longer connected as lord of the manor with that part of the Common over which the Association held its meetings, and he did not speak, therefore, as lord of the manor, but as one who had been so long connected with and interested in the National Rifle Association. It would not be necessary for him to follow his noble Friend in what he had so clearly and ably said as to the work of the National Rifle Association. He fully shared with him the belief that that work had been of great good, not only
1508
to the Volunteers, but to the Nation at large. As had been pointed out by His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge who had now left the House, the Volunteers were now established on an efficient and permanent basis. This was due to a variety of causes—first, to the patriotism of those who had joined the Force as officers and men; secondly, to the public both in town and country who had assisted the Volunteers with moral and material support. It was also largely due to the officers and men of the Army, from His Royal Highness to the humble private who helped to mark at Wimbledon, who had always given great assistance to the Volunteer movement. Those had been the causes which had contributed to place the Volunteers on the present efficient and admirable footing; but they must not forget that the National Rifle Association had also had great influence on the Force. As his noble Friend had said, rifle shooting, which had been stimulated at Wimbledon, had done a great deal to keep men together in the Volunteer Force and to make others desirous of joining it. He knew numbers of men who would never have joined the Volunteers but for the shooting. The National Rifle Association had really created a now national pastime. Through their efforts rifle shooting had become throughout the length and breadth of the land one of the pastimes of the nation. This had had a great influence on the Volunteer Force; the National Rifle Association had not only made the Volunteers efficient in the use of arms, but had kept in the ranks many who would not otherwise have joined. He need not speak of the use which the National Rifle Association had made of the meeting on Wimbledon Common. Its meetings had become friendly gatherings of men, not only from this country, but from all parts of the Empire, India, and the Colonies, to compete at the butts and had largely promoted a spirit of brotherhood between the Army and the Volunteers. All this had been done at Wimbledon, and it was possible, though he thought it very doubtful whether the same good effect would have come about if they had not been able to hold this great national gathering so close to London, he would venture to say that thousands of Volunteers would have been unable or unwilling to shoot

1509
at Wimbledon if they had not come to London for the purpose. Moreover, thousands of visitors from all parts of the United Kingdom and abroad would have been ignorant what the Volunteers could do with their arms if the place where the National Rifle Association held its meetings had not been close to London. The great success which had attended the Volunteer movement, and the great influence which the National Rifle Association had had on that movement, had been greatly due to its meetings being held in the near neighbourhood of London, he would, therefore, deeply regret that what had been productive of good in the past should be taken away from the meetings of the National Rifle Association in the future. His Royal Highness had remarked that the meetings of the National Rifle Association would have been successful if not held at Wimbledon, and he referred to the success of the meetings of the National Artillery Association at Shoeburyness. But there was a great difference between those meetings. The object of the meeting at Wimbledon was not only to promote rifle-shooting by the Volunteers, but to improve the arm itself and to make rifle-shooting, as it had become, a national pastime. It was altogether different with Shoeburyness, for it was impossible to make Artillery shooting a national pastime. That was the distinction between the artillery and the Rifle Volunteers. He was not for a moment inclined to derogate from the importance of the meeting of the Artillery Volunteers; but the circumstances of the two Associations were altogether different. One must necessarily have a place like Shoeburyness at which to hold its meetings, but the other might have a place which should be the most convenient for people to congregate at. His Royal Highness had spoken of Wimbledon as now being surrounded by villas, and of rifle-shooting there as constituting a permanent danger. He ventured to think that His Royal Highness was under some misapprehension. He quite agreed with what his noble Friend the present President of the Association (Lord Wantage) had said as to the limitation of the area over which there was any danger. The Common was singularly situated. There was a long range on the fiat over 1,000 yards. Then there was a great fall in the ground,
1510
which still belonged to the Common, and beyond that there were fields which were at present merely agricultural land. It was only on that agricultural land—a very small area—that there was any danger. That was the only place where there was any risk of the Volunteers firing over the butts. He would venture to say that there was no ground available for villas at all within the range of the National Rifle Association butts. It came to a question, then, of this land immediately behind the butts. Most of their Lordships would probably agree with him that it would be a monstrous thing to take advantage of the position of His Royal Highness, and of the great interest which he took in the Association, in regarding the situation in which land which principally belonged to him was placed. If there was any prospect of this land being used for building land, it ought, in his opinion, to be secured for the National Rifle Association, and it might be done in a variety of ways. He confessed that he attached such immense importance to keeping the National Rifle Association at Wimbledon, that he thought that alone would justify a great effort being made to secure this land behind the Common. It might be possible to secure further permanent ranges at Wimbledon, but that opened up questions of great difficulty, and he should deprecate mixing up that subject with, securing the retention of the Common for the National Rifle Association. He therefore ventured to hope that Her Majesty's Government would take up this matter and consider it from a national point of view, He did not think there need be any practical difficulty in the way of coming to a satisfactory settlement. No doubt, during the meeting the Common had to be guarded from 9 o'clock till firing ceased, and during that time those who habitually used the Common could not make use of it. But that was not a large sacrifice for those who lived in the neighbourhood to make for a great national object when they had the free use of the Common during all the rest of the year. During the meetings extreme precautions had to be taken, and the police to be protected in iron huts, but that was a necessary accompaniment to rifle-shooting in such a locality. The public could be fully secured from danger, audit was of great national importance that a satisfactory

1511
arrangement should be come to with those who had land in the district, he should view with alarm the decision that henceforth the National Rifle Association, which had been such a success at Wimbledon, would have to move to some other locality, and there to make the experiment of continuing its existence, he sincerely trusted that Her Majesty's Government—although they could hardly expect them on the present occasion to come to any decision—would fairly consider this great national question, and would do their best to secure the retention of Wimbledon Common for the meetings of the National Rifle Association.
EARL BROWNLOWsaid, he was glad the Motion had been withdrawn, or he would have had considerable difficulty in taking part in the discussion. There was no one more fitted to bring this subject before the House than the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss), because it was due to his indomitable perseverance, coupled with the patriotism of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Spencer), that the National Rifle Association was founded. As a member of the Council of that Association who had passed the Chair, he would like to be permitted to say that he agreed with what the noble Earl and other noble Lords had said with regard to the removal of the annual meeting of the Association from Wimbledon. He firmly believed that the removal would be a tremendous blow, not perhaps at the National Association, but at the national usefulness of the Association. They must remember that at that annual meeting those who assembled were not all Volunteers. There was, in the first place, a large camp of ordinary gentlemen, who were not Volunteers—who were eminent rifle-shots, and took a deep interest in the whole question of rifle-shooting; and the honorary members' camp would probably be a very small one if the Camp were removed from Wimbledon. Then he was glad to say that every year they had teams sent from Colonial Corps to compote in friendly rivalry with the Volunteers of the Mother Country. From time to time, also, they had had foreign guests—American teams, Belgian teams, and individual foreigners—who came over to take part in our great national rifle meeting; and it in us also be remembered that besides these and the Volun-
1512
teers and others who were in camp, a great many competitors came daily from London who lived in London, and who were unable to go into camp. Now, if the meeting were removed from London, very few of these would be able to become competitors. He firmly believed that the removal of the meeting from Wimbledon Common would be a bitter and grievous disappointment to the persons he had named, and he trusted that some means might be found of keeping it where it was now, and where it always had been.
LORD TRUROsaid, that the National Rifle Association might be called the parent of rifle-shooting in this country. The two main questions which they now had to consider were, in the first place, how far the Association was essential or even vital to the Volunteer Force; and, secondly, whether the danger to the community was or was not such as to entitle anyone to anticipate grievous injury either to individuals at Wimbledon or to the value of property in that district. When he had heard the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) say, and his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge admit, that no person had suffered death or even injury within the ranges of the National Rifle Association, it was very strong evidence in favour of its continuance. His Royal Highness had referred to Shoeburyness; but, for his (Lord Truro's) own part, he contended that there was no comparison between the two cases. Unless those who were opposed to the retention of the Camp at Wimbledon were prepared to show that amazing benefits would occur if it were transferred, he could not conceive a greater calamity.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, he was sure their Lordships would agree with the noble Lord (Lord Truro) in saying that they were all much indebted to the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) for having brought this question forward. It was necessary that in a matter of this kind the country at large should understand what were all the circumstances that surrounded the case before it was possible for the Government to decide the point. He had been appealed to by several noble Lords to say that the Government would take the question of the National Rifle Association meeting staying at Wimbledon into considera-

1513
tion. There was not the slightest doubt that the question of rifle-shooting was now a national question; but if the noble Earl had pressed his Motion he could not have accepted it, because it, implied that the retention of the National Rifle Association at Wimbledon was a national question. He had heard on all sides that the National Rifle Association could not exist unless it met at Wimbledon.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I never said so.
LORD HARRISsaid, the noble Earl had referred to various competitions which, would not take place if the Camp were removed from Wimbledon. He did not suppose anyone denied the advantages which the National Rifle Association had been to the Volunteer movement; but he confessed he should not have believed it possible, if it had not been for the mass of opinion which had been offered by the noble Lords, that blood was only to be found in the heart, and that it did not go through all branches of the body. He believed there was immense vitality in the different county and district Rifle Associations, and the private meetings held by Volunteer Corps, and he could not believe that they were to be supposed to die away because the National Rifle Association was not at Wimbledon. He absolutely declined to believe that there was not more public spirit and patriotism in the Volunteers of England than that the movement would dwindle and decay because the National Rifle Association did not go on at Wimbledon. He believed the same respect and affection for an Institution which had done so much would remain, and would follow it to its new quarters. He did not think the Government could fail to recognize and to take into consideration the opinions of noble Lords who had expressed themselves to-night upon this subject to the effect that they thought the National Rifle Association could not got on or be to successful if removed from Wimbledon. That statement, he was sure, would attract the attention of the Government, and, no doubt, they would consider any proposals that the National Rifle Association might make when the time came. At present there was not, so far as he understood, anything practical that the National Rifle Association were prepared to put forward, and therefore it would be
1514
impossible for the Government to pledge themselves with their eyes shut to accept any scheme which might be put forward. This, however, he could say, that the Government recognized the fact that the encouragement and support of rifle shooting was of national importance. They had already recognized this for 10 years, by the assistance which they had given every year. In this year's Estimates a sum of £3,000 would be found for expenses in connection with the meeting, for ammunition and wear and tear of material. He did not think that any Government, if there were any chance or prospect of the extinction of an Institution which had been of such national value, would hesitate to give what assistance lay in its power in order to keep it going. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge had spoken of Shoeburyness and of Pirbright. Of Shoeburyness, however, he had only spoken with regard to the meetings of an Association not exactly parallel, but similar, which was successful though its meetings were at a long distance from the Metropolis. With regard to the suggested removal to Pirbright, he might say that ample range accommodation could be obtained there, besides excellent railway accommodation, with water and other essentials; and if the National Rifle Association were placed in the position that they could not continue at Wimbledon, and could find no place nearer London than. Pirbright, then he could assure them that so far as the present Government were concerned, every facility would be given to make them welcome guests there. He understood certain schemes had been put forward from different places, and he hoped that before the time came—which would be nearly two years from the termination of notice to quit—it would be possible to put forward some scheme which the Government could support, and which would place the National Rifle Association in a position not loss favourable to their supporting the National pastime of rifle-shooting than that which they had hitherto held.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he believed great good would come of this discussion, and he only rose now to express his thanks to his noble Friend (Lord Harris) who had replied on behalf of the Government. He trusted they might be in a position to place some such

1515
scheme as had been spoken of before the Government.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

TRUCK BILL.—(No. 179.)
(The Lord Macnaghten.)

COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clauses 1 and 2 severally agreed to.
Clause 3 (Workmen to be entitled to advance of portion of wages).
THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in moving to strike out the clause which deals with advances to workmen, and provides that whenever by agreement, custom, or otherwise a workman receives in anticipation of the regular period of the payment of his wages an advance as part or on account thereof, it shall not be lawful for the employer to withhold such advance or take any profit, discount, or interest, I or make any charge or reduction, or impose any condition for or in respect of any payment of a part of wages, said, he thought it was a very inexpedient and very violent one in its interference between employer and workmen. Not only did it specify modes and times of payment of wages, but it provided that there was to be no deduction for advances. Such powers as these had nothing to do with the subject of truck, and he thought it undesirable to provide that whore circumstances had led to a certain arrangement there should be no liberty to change the arrangement though circumstances might change. He was entirely in favour of the principle of the Truck Acts, which he considered most valuable legislation; but this clause was foreign to that principle.
Moved, "To strike out the Clause."—(The Duke of Argyll.)
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he thought the clause so worded as to be in part nugatory, and to defeat its own object, and he hoped it would be rejected.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, it was absolutely impossible to understand the clause as it stood, which he thought was absurd.
LORD MACNAGHTENsaid, he must confess that the clause had little to do with the main principle of the measure, and that it was extremely difficult to
1516
understand it. It did not seem to arise out of the main principle of the Bill.
Motion agreed to; clause struck out accordingly.
Clause 4 struck out of the Bill.
Clause 5 (Workmen in Scotch quarries to be paid fortnightly).
Moved, "To strike out the Clause."—(The Viscount Cross.)
EARL BROWNLOWsaid, he would rather amend the clause. It dealt with the period of payment of wages to workmen; but it dealt only with the workmen in stone quarries in Scotland, and he could not understand why these should be particularly picked out for this treatment.
Motion agreed to; clause struck out accordingly.
Clause 6 (Saving for servant in husbandry).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he would point out that the framers of the clause seemed to be under the impression that, by a reference in it to the existing law, they brought this mode of payment within the law. Now, he held that they had done nothing of the sort; and, therefore, he would suggest to his noble and learned Friend (Lord Macnaghten) to bring up an amended clause dealing with it.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, it was the case that all over Scotland shepherds and others received a portion of their pay in the form of cottages, and he had never heard it suggested that that practice was illegal.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 11, inclusive, severally agreed to.
Clause 12 (Artificer to be paid in cash, and not by way of barter, for articles made by him).
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the clause practically forbade barter, for it provided that when persons worked at their own homes, the shopkeepers to whom they took their goods to sell should not be allowed to pay for them in groceries or bread, or otherwise, except by money. That, he would point out, converted the shopkeepers into employers, and those who made the articles into employés. He knew many parts in

1517
the Highlands and Islands of Scotland where borne industries were common, and it was almost impossible to avoid barter of this kind. The women made stockings, and in Shetland they made most beautiful shawls, and exchanged these goods for provisions; and it would be most inconvenient to prevent them doing so. He objected altogether to that, and had he noticed it in time before the second reading, he would have moved that it be read a second time this day three months, so that the Bill might be wholly recast.
LORD MACNAGHTENsaid, there was a provision at the end of the clause suspending its operation in cases where it was desirable to do so.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: Then that was to say that the framers of the Bill were so conscious of its impropriety that they said the Queen in Council might suspend it. Nothing more clumsy was ever attempted.
LORD HALSBURYalso objected to the clause, which related to people who were wholly independent of each other.
Clause struck out.
Clauses 13 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule.
LORD HALSBURYsaid, he would point out that there was an enormous amount of repeal of parts of existing Acts of Parliament, and it would be an endless puzzle to the Judges to ascertain what the law really was.
Schedule agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 222.)

MARRIAGE ACTS—THESEBRIGHT MARRIAGE—REGISTRAR OF MOUNT STREET.—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Government, Whether any Notice has been taken of the conduct attributed to the Registrar of Mount Street, who would appear from the Report of the proceedings in the Divorce Court in respect of Mr. Sebright's marriage, to have been blind to the compulsion used by Mr. Sebright and his friend? It was not necessary to go into details, since compulsion was the ground on which the marriage had been annulled, and this had been confirmed by the decree having been made absolute about six weeks or
1518
two months ago. He thought the Registrars required to he cautioned to prevent their offices being abused in a similar way.
LORD BALFOUR. (for the Local Government Board)said, he was rather surprised that the noble Lord should have thought it worth while to raise such a question as the one under notice after this lapse of time. The Local Government Board had no direct control over the Registrars, who were subject to the Registrar General. But he (Lord Balfour) had received a communication from the Registrar, in which ha stated that he had no ground for suspicion in the matter, for he had seen an announcement that the parties were shortly to be married before he received the notices, and that he had observed nothing unusual in Miss Scott's demeanour until after the ceremony had been completed, when she forgot to sign the register. It was also true that after the marriage ceremony was completed, Miss Scott drew the ring from her finger—not at the time it was put on, as she stated to the Court—and then went to the door. The duties of the Registrar were simply to administer the law. He had to take care that the parties were of full age, and that the legal requirements had been complied with, and there his duty ended. The Registrar General had not thought it necessary to take any notice of the matter, and in that, he thought, the Registrar General was quite right. Being anxious to give as satisfactory an explanation as possible, he had read all the documents which had been brought before him in regard to this matter, and, as far as his humble judgment wont, he thought that the decision of the Registrar was right.
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, the noble Lord's speech had convinced him that the case was an example of the great inconvenience of an inquiry of this description. They know now that a grievous compulsion was used. They knew it, because they were told not only what took place in the Registrar's office, but also what occurred days and weeks previously and subsequently. Yet this gentleman wan, as it were, by implication to be censured because he did not, with the materials before him come to the same conclusion as the Probate Judge, who formed his judgment on quite different materials.

AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS' HOLIDAYS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 212.)
(The Earl of Camperdown.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it came from the other House, and that its object was to entitle by law farm servants to four holidays every year, in lieu of the fast days and fair days.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the noble Earl had given a very short account of the Bill, which had passed the House of Commons. The noble Earl did not explain to them why the Bill was to apply only to agricultural labourers, or why it was necessary that Parliament should interfere in the matter at all. He thought it was a piece of unnecessary legislation. Then he objected to part of the 2nd clause, which said that no deduction on the wages of servants should be made in respect of such holidays. That was a most extraordinary provision, and it occurred to him on reading it to discover whether there was any similar provision in Sir John Lubbock's Acts with reference to Bank Holidays, and, on looking, he found that there was no clause of a similar kind.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he thought he could explain why the benefit of this Bill was confined to agricultural labourers. The agricultural labourers had lately been enfranchised, and at the Election before last they voted for the Liberals, because they thought the liberals had given them their vote, and now, after this Bill, they would probably be expected to continue to vote in the same way. He approved of the view taken of the measure by the noble Duke.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)said, the Bill appeared to him to be an absolutely unnecessary one. At the same time, there was this to be said for its being brought forward. In a great many places in Scotland it was proposed to do away with fast days, and the agricul-
1520
tural labourers who got these days as holidays would thus be deprived of them, while the Bank Holidays would not affect them. Those people would, however, have these holidays, whether by Act of Parliament or not. Still, he considered the Bill so harmless, after the omission of the words in Clause 2 to which the noble Duke alluded, that their Lordships might allow it to pass.
THE EARL OE CAMPERDOWNsaid, the noble Marquess had given the correct explanation of why the Bill applied only to agricultural labourers. It was intended to substitute for two fast days New Year's Day and the annual hiring day, which had been established, by universal practice, as holidays—the four holidays mentioned in the Bill. It was quite true that fast days had been abolished in some districts with the greatest possible advantage, he believed. If the Bill did no good, it would do no harm, and he hoped their Lordships would allow it to proceed.
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he thought the Bill objectionable, and its drafting seemed to him crude and careless. If the Government thought the Bill would do no harm he would be sorry to oppose it; but it appeared to him that every clause of the Bill was open to objection.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)said, that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill had not answered the Question put by the Secretary for Scotland, as to whether, if the Bill were read a second time, he would strike out the words in Clause 2, as to there being no deduction of wages in respect of the holidays?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that no deduction was or could be made at the present time, because agricultural servants, or the great majority of them, were yearly servants. He believed that the provision would have no practical effect, therefore, he was perfectly willing to dispense with it. He would, however, urge that great store was put upon this Bill in Scotland. If it did no good, it, at all events, would do harm.
LORD BALFOLURsaid, no one had as yet alluded to what he thought was the real danger. He considered it a dangerous Bill in the interests of the farm servants, because a niggardly employer might take advantage of the Bill to limit the holidays of his servants

1521
to the four days; whereas, he believed agricultural labourers got many more holidays in the course of the year. He hoped the promoters of the Bill would consider whether it would really do the agricultural labourers any benefit, and, whether, in the circumstances, it was worth while going on with it.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLthought the abolition of fast days affected only the population of large towns, like Edinburgh and Glasgow.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANreminded the noble Duke that fast days had been abolished in many of the rural districts.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and CHANDOS)pointed out that the provision respecting the attending to cattle, as it stood, applied generally to other days than the four holidays specified.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that was a matter that would, of course, be subject to correction. He thought the intention of the Bill was that any servant who was called upon to perform service in the care of live stock would have to take his holiday on a different day. He would also consider the point raised by the noble Duke, and endeavour to meet his objection as well as he could.
On Question? Resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.