HL Deb 29 April 1887 vol 314 cc309-22
THE EARL OF HARROWBY,

in rising to ask, What course was intended to be taken by Her Majesty's Government respecting the proposals of the Canadian Government to establish a line of first-class Royal Mail steamers between the Pacific terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway at Vancouver City and Hong Kong, China, and Japan, and to move for Papers, said, that the Question of which he had given Notice arose out of the completion of that very great work the Canadian Pacific Railway. Many Englishmen in the present day had large interests in our Colonies; but he might state that he had nothing personally to do with any Canadian matter in any way whatever. The reason why he felt a very keen interest in this subject was that when he first came into the House of Commons in 1857 he had sat for many weeks on the Hudson's Bay Committee, under the Presidency of his lamented Friend the late Lord Iddesleigh. The question had been whether the Hudson's Bay Charter should be continued or not, and they had decided that the Hudson's Bay rule should be abolished and its territory thrown open to colonization and civilization. He had also had all the confidential Papers on the subject before him in the first Cabinet of his noble Friend the present Prime Minister. He would ask their Lordships to remember that this great Canadian Pacific Railway formed one of the most interesting stories in the modern history of nations. It had created quite a revolution in the Dominion of Canada; and as an instance of that he might mention that a journey which occupied Lord Wolseley and his men 76 days to accomplish, between Toronto and Fort Garry, when he put down the Riel rebellion, could now be performed with the greatest comfort and ease in two days. In fact, this railway was, perhaps, the greatest revolution in the condition of the British Empire that had occurred in our time. He was quite sure that the people of England did not appreciate what a tremendous revolution the creation of that railway had already effected, and would effect in the future. What had that railway actually effected? It had brought the Pacific Ocean within 14 days of the English Coast. Vancouver City, the terminus of the line, could only be reached before that in between two or three months. Suddenly, when this line was completed, they found themselves not only in telegraphic communication with Vancouver, but within 14 days' reach of that vast ocean. He would ask their Lordships to consider what was this British Columbia with which that railway had brought them into immediate connection. There had been a general feeling that its natural fate must lead to its drifting into the great American Union, as they had had little hope of seeing that wonderful railway completed across the Continent. What was this British Columbia, of which Vancouver promised to be the centre? It had 450 miles of coast, a climate of singular merit, excellent fisheries, the most magnificent timber, and a soil suited for every kind of cereal, while gold lay concealed below the soil. It had the only good coal supply on the North Pacific, and possessed a good dry dock. It was true that the entrance to the Strait was commanded by land belonging to America; but there was a channel, admirably suited for large ships, with an average depth of 100 fathoms, which could be made impregnable at small cost. In comparing the time taken to go to Yokohama, Hong Kong, and Shanghai by the best steamers under the new contract for 1888, he found that from England by the Peninsular and Oriental route, viâ Suez and Brindisi, to Hong Kong, took from 33 to 37 days, and by the Canadian Pacific Railway from 32 to 35 days; to Shanghai by the Peninsular and Oriental route 37 to 42 days, by the Vancouver route 32 days; to Yokohama by the Peninsular and Oriental route 41 to 45 days, by Vancouver 27 days. By the Cape the time taken to go to Bombay was 31 days, by Vancouver 38 days; to Singapore by the Cape 82 days, by Vancouver 32 days; to Brisbane by the Cape 28 days, by Vancouver 27; to Fiji by the Cape 32 days, by Vancouver 27 days. These were important figures, as showing that if we were barred from the Cape route or the Suez Canal we should have an excellent third alternative route. The Suez route was as precarious as any route could be, and it might be a matter of the gravest difficulty to prevent it from being stopped up. By the Cape route we might have to run the gauntlet of a considerable number of hostile foreign stations if we were at war with either France or Germany. A third great line of communication would, therefore, in case of war, be of infinite value to the whole of the Imperial interests. Beyond that, if this line were once taken up as a great naval line, there must soon follow a line of submarine telegraph from Vancouver to our Australian. Colonies. He had always felt that the country was not sufficiently alarmed as to the danger of our having in time of war our great telegraph lines seriously interfered with. Our communications with India were very much at the mercy of Turkey, and those with China at the mercy of Russia and France; it was, therefore, most desirable that every means of independent communication should be secured. Lord Dufferin had stated— That the effect upon the Native mind of English troops reaching India from the East as well as from the West would be enormous. Canada had already done its part nobly in this matter, and the enterprize that it had shown was highly creditable. Canada was only constituted a Dominion in 1867, and in 1870 and 1871 Hudson's Bay and Columbia were admitted. It was only in 1881 that the Canadian Pacific Railway Act was passed, and the construction of some 2,500 miles of railway commenced. According to the contract the work was to be completed by May, 1891; but such was the energy displayed that the last rail was laid in November, 1885. The cost to the Canadian Government was over £24,000,000, and £1,000,000 a-year had to be imposed by way of taxation to meet this cost. This wonderful railway was one of the most remarkable engineering feats of which he had ever heard, and it was only right that in a great Assembly like that they should express their admiration of it. It was a magnificent undertaking, which redounded to the honour of the Canadian people, and with which the names of Sir John Macdonald, Sir George Stephen, and Sir Charles Tupper would ever be associated. In October, 1885, when Lord John Manners was Postmaster General, the Post Office invited tenders for a fortnightly service to begin in February, 1888, between Vancouver, Yokohama, and Hong Kong, to cross the Pacific at the rate of 10½ to 11 knots an hour. The Canadian Pacific Railway sent in a tender for a fortnightly service between Vancouver, Yokohama, and Hong Kong at an average speed of 14 knots, which was the highest rate ever contracted for ocean voyages. The Company undertook to build under Admiralty supervision vessels of first-class type capable of steaming 18 knots, adapted for the conveyance of troops, and also for conversion at short notice into armed cruisers; to carry the Japan and China mails between the Atlantic port and Vancouver free of charge, to carry troops on service between the Atlantic port and Hong Kong at absolute cost, and to carry war materials and Government stores across the Continent at absolute cost. The subsidy which they asked from the British Government was £100,000 a-year. Mr. Holt also sent in a tender for an 11 knots an hour service, and he required £108,000 a-year. He could not believe that the Government would really reject a proposal to take possession of the Pacific by means of a great line of mail steamers set floating under the auspices of our venturous Canadian brethren. To have in the Pacific five first-rate steamers ready for conversion at any moment into armed cruisers could not fail to result in a saving of expenditure during war scares. During the Russian war scare in 1885 Mr. Gladstone's Government chartered as armed cruisers in the Pacific for six months nine vessels for £333,000, and only one of them could attain the minimum speed of the proposed Canadian Pacific ships; whilst some of them were absolutely useless for purposes of war. Then £1,000,000 was also spent to charter transports, many of them being intended for the Pacific. If the proposals which came from Canada wore accepted armaments for the vessels could be kept at Vancouver on the one side and at Hong Kong on the other, so that it would take but a very short time to prepare them to meet an enemy. It might be asked—"Has Canada done her share in this matter of grave Imperial importance?" The reply was that Canada's work with respect to the railway was very great; but she had shown her readiness to go further by advertising for steamers sufficiently speedy to cover the distance between England and Canada in six days. He held that Canada was doing her part of the work nobly. Let England beware lest procrastination on her side resulted in her being forestalled by Germany or Japan. The Government of Japan was quite ready to move in the matter, while some years ago the North German Lloyd Company made inquiries as to whether they would have a chance of opening up this route. He invited the House to consider the difference of opening up the vast commerce of China, Japan, and Australia to British ships representing the Royal Mail Service, and, on the other hand, having those great commercial stations in the hands of the Germans and the Japanese. If it were said that England could not at present afford the subsidy, he would answer—"Economize where you rightly can; if necessary save the money devoted to the new Admiralty and War Offices; cease to buy works of art; cease decorating your parks; but do not postpone acquiring control over this great Pacific line." When the line should have been established the extension of communication with China, Japan, and the Australian Colonies must be most beneficial. The best way to meet the existing depression of trade was to strike out and obtain more frequent communication between England and new markets of the world. We wanted a sense of complete stability—a sense that war would be avoided—and by putting these armed cruisers into the hands of enterprizing Canada we should do more to convince the nations of the world that we were strong than by any other means. With Royal Mail steamers as cruisers in disguise—for that was really what the proposal meant—they would do more towards the peace of the world than by any other device of which they could think. In the world of politics, he feared, there was a tendency to shrink from those great responsibilities of Empire which were crowding in upon us. This tendency, however, had not yet made itself manifest among the people, who would, he believed, agree with him that we ought to follow at sea the example set by the old Roman Empire upon land, and to establish great lines of communication between the scattered portions of the Empire. He felt sure that by taking the course he had advocated the Prime Minister, who was as anxious for federation as anybody could be, would do what was most likely to lead to the practical realization of the idea. Moved, "That there be laid before this House papers respecting the proposals of the Canadian Government to establish a line of first class Royal Mail steamers between the Pacific terminus of the Canadian Pacific Raihvay at Vancouver City and Hong Kong, China, and Japan."—[The Earl of Harrowby.)

LORD BRABOURNE

said, he was anxious to add a few words to the statement so ably made by his noble Friend upon a subject which he considered of paramount importance. By this Canadian route they would not only obtain regularity and speed, but they would be able to establish with distant countries and with our distant Dependencies communications which would be entirely in British hands, or in the hands of those who had British interests at heart. So far as Canada was concerned, he had the good fortune to have enjoyed the friendship of Canadian statesmen, and especially of Sir John Macdonald, perhaps the greatest Colonist who had ever presided over a British Colony; and he was certain that the wish of Canada, in making the proposals under consideration, was that she might afford greater support to the Mother Country. As Canada was our oldest Colony, so she was the Colony which for the longest period had evinced devoted loyalty to the Mother Country and her institutions. What had Canada now done? With a comparatively small population she had expended an enormous sum in the construction of that Pacific Railway, which was one of the wonders of the age. No doubt, one of her objects had been the consolidation of her own strength and the development of her own resources, but she had other objects in view, and mainly that of in- creasing the power of Great Britain and binding herself by still closer ties to the fortunes of the Empire. Canada, indeed, deserved well of England and of Englishmen, and it would be cause for great regret if anything should prevent the Mother Country from responding to the appeal which the Dominion had. made. He (Lord Brabourne) well knew the position of the Government with regard to expenditure. They had rigid censors of expenditure whom they were bound to regard; but this matter was not one which the Government could refuse to entertain on the ground of economy. Though the enterprize might not be remunerative immediately, at a future time it would very probably repay us ten fold or twenty-fold. But whether or no this was likely to be the case, he urged upon the Government to receive with favour a proposal, the acceptance of which, while gratifying Colonial feeling, would, he confidently expected, lead to the direct and material advantage of Imperial interests.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW)

said, he did not propose to follow the noble Earl in his remarks about the advantages of the Canadian and Pacific route; but he could assure him that the Government highly appreciated, in these days, when all the Colonies were stirring themselves with such patriotism towards providing their own defences, the contribution which Canada had made to the defence and unity of the Empire. It was no small achievement for a Colony with less than 5,000,000 people to have contributed £25,000,000 for the construction of a trans-continental railway for the benefit of the Empire. The subject dealt with by the proposal of the noble Earl had been under the consideration of two Committees. The first Committee dealt with it almost entirely from the point of view of commercial and postal advantage, and they were unable to recommend the adoption of the proposal that Her Majesty's Government should contribute £100,000 a-year for a tri-weekly service to Hong Kong. It was found that the mails which went from this country to China and Japan did not bring into the Imperial Exchequer more than some £22,000 a-year. The second Committee considered it in its strategical aspect, and the opinions which were elicited before that Committee from naval officers were not entirely and unmistakably in favour of the proposal. He was bound to say, however, that the opinions of the military officers who were consulted pronounced, he thought without exception, in favour of the proposal. The matters with which those two Committees dealt chiefly concerned the defence of the Empire, and were more or less of a confidential nature; it would not, therefore, be advisable that the Papers should be presented to Parliament. Since these Committees had reported the subject had assumed a somewhat different aspect. It had been proposed that instead of a tri-weekly there should be a fortnightly service for the same contribution, and that the ships should be built according to Admiralty requirements as to speed, construction, and capacity as armed transports. But the Government did not see their way to so large a proposal. Since then a further proposal had been made—namely, that the service, provisionally at any rate, should be monthly, and that Her Majesty's Government should make a contribution of £60,000 a-year. Upon receipt of that communication a telegram was addressed to the Canadian Government inquiring whether they were prepared to assist in contributing towards this subsidy. At first it was understood that the Canadian Government declined to make any contribution whatever. Since then, however, a further communication had been received in which the Canadian Government had expressed their willingness to make some contribution from Canadian funds, and that proposal was at the present moment under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl would, therefore, see that he was not entirely accurate in stating that a decision had already been taken upon the subject by Her Majesty's Government. The Canadian Pacific Company had, he believed, already taken some steps for placing the service in an efficient condition, and he was informed that three ships of the Cunard Company had left Liverpool, and were now on their way to Vancouver with the object of being placed on the service. He assured the noble Earl that the subject was receiving, and would continue to receive, the most careful attention of Her Majesty's Government, and that as soon as a decision was arrived at Papers would be laid before Parliament; but, until the matter was finally settled, he could not present the Papers moved for by the noble Earl.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON

said, he supported as far as he could the admirable, clear, and statesmanlike statement of his noble Friend who brought this question forward. There was every reason why the Government should accept the suggestions of his noble Friend, because, as he understood from his noble Friend the Under Secretary, the original subsidy asked of the Government for the Pacific service was £100,000; but this sum had been reduced to £60,000, and ultimately even to £45,000, with a monthly service. That was a comparatively trifling sum, but the expenditure would bring great benefits with it. He doubted, however, whether the saving of the £15,000 on the £60,000 or the £40,000 on the £100,000 was worth making if it involved a monthly instead of a fortnightly service. But he would accept the monthly service, in the hope that it would ultimately lead to a fortnightly service, and that a large and profitable commerce would grow up between Vancouver and China and Japan. He would add nothing to the well-deserved oulogy which his noble Friend had pronounced on the Canadian Pacific Railway, so admirable in its conception, in its construction, and in its completion. The service which it was proposed should be established consisted of three parts. First, there was the steamer service between England and Canada, which was to be carried on in swift vessels subsidized by the Canadian Government; secondly, there were fast trains across the Continent; and, lastly, there was the service in the Pacific Ocean which they were now discussing. Now, there were five distinct Imperial and commercial advantages which would arise from the establishment of this route. First, a rapid through postal and passenger route to the East; secondly, before long a complete and independent British telegraphic line; thirdly, rapid and cheap transport for troops and stores across the Continent to our Eastern Possessions, it being part of the bargain that troops and stores should be carried at cost price; fourthly, as his noble Friend had pointed out, the establishment of a third route to the East in addition to the Suez Canal, which in time of war might easily be blocked, and to the Cape route, which was wholly undefended. This third route, moreover, was entirely through British territory. Fifthly, the ships to be constructed for the Pacific service wore to be constructed so as to serve as cruisers. He heartily concurred in this last provision, which was one of the recommendations of the Defence Commission, whose opinion it was that the exigencies of a great war could only be met by arming our merchant vessels as cruisers. He also understood that the service had been guaranteed for efficiency by one of the largest commercial houses in this country, whose name he would not mention as he had not seen it in print. He would only say further on this point that they must bear specially in mind that since this Canadian Pacific Railway had been completed (he whole character of the docks at Esquimault had undergone a material change. Those docks had now been finished, and a great deal of Imperial money had been spent upon them. There was now at Esquimault a dock which was capable of receiving the largest of our ships. In addition to that guns and armaments might be sent there, and the House must boar in mind that Vancouver Island was the only coaling station we possessed in that part of the world. There was only one other point which he would add to his noble Friend's admirable statement. For several generations this country had pursued a continuous course of policy with regard to Canada, and large sums had been expended is the construction of roads and railways for military purposes. The great Canadian Pacific Railway had now been completed, and he submitted that it would be a misfortune to stop here when we were in sight of the goal which we had been striving for so many years to attain. His noble Friend had referred to a delicate subject to which he would only allude briefly; but it was right that their Lordships should fully understand that if we did not establish our claim to this great maritime highway—if we did not meet the Dominion on this particular question—the service would fall into the hands of another European Power. They must not think that others would be equally negligent of their obvious interests. If that were so the direct advantages which must flow from the establishment of the service would be lost to us, and would be transferred to others; and, worse than that, another foreign influence would and must be established in the Pacific Ocean. However, he would not dwell further upon that point; but he hoped Her Majesty's Government would weigh it carefully. The establishment of a commercial line of steamers for Vancouver would also give a footing to the commerce of the South Pacific. He trusted, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government would come to the conclusion that this was a good bargain, commercially, at the present time, and that it would be a great misfortune if this opportunity wore allowed to slip.

THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN

said, he could not let this debate go by without expressing how deeply he sympathized and agreed with all that had fallen from the noble Earl who had brought this Motion forward. He had only just come up from the country, and, therefore, he had not the advantage of hearing all that he said; but from what he did hear he was convinced that he went very fully and fairly into the most important points connected with this important subject. His noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had told them that the Government were giving this matter their serious consideration. He believed he had heard these words many times before from various Governments. As a general rule, when he had heard those words he had found the results of that consideration had been nothing. He trusted that in this case, seeing the great importance of the subject, the result would be entirely different. On the commercial aspect of the case it was difficult to speak; but he would point out to their Lordships how it might be under-rated. The great importance of it was to this country that the material prosperity and well-being of Canada should be increased. Canada was a good customer of ours. We had a large trade with the Dominion, and anything that increased the power of producing their goods must be of great advantage to the manufacturing interest of this country. It was impossible to say how far this line of steamers would increase the prosperity of Canada; but he begged their Lordships to remember that so great was the advantage of the Northern route, and so much nearer did it approach to Vancouver Land, that there could be no question that a large contributing trade would take place if Vancouver was connected by steamers with Shanghai and Hong Kong. It was impossible to give an estimate of what value this trade might be; but it would probably be very great. The most important aspect undoubtedly was that it would be an alternative line to our Eastern Colonies, and he did not think it was possible to overestimate the value of this line from that point of view. The noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had told them that all the military authorities he had consulted were in favour of the line, and most of the naval authorities also. That appeared to him a strong and almost unanswerable argument for subsidizing this line of steamers. The value of it from an Imperial point of view could be understood by everyone, as the Suez Canal route would not be available during hostilities. The route they wore now considering would be entirely on British territory on land or water, where vessels conveying goods could not be harassed from the opposition of, any foreign Power; that was an advantage which was very great. He did not think it was a question as to whether this line was worth £40,000 a-year, £50,000 a-year, or £60,000. The question this country had to consider was, whether, if a line of steamers wore established between British North America and our Possessions in the East, it was worth the reasonable sum of money they were asking. The fact that it would be available by first-class steamers steaming 18 knots, capable of carrying troops, capable of being armed at a moment's notice—provided armaments were ready, as he supposed they would be—the value of such a force as that to this country could not be overestimated. The great expense at which the country was placed was commented upon by the noble Earl—a vast amount of shipping was absolutely wasted. A Bill subsidizing this line of steamers, as had been promised, would be a great saving to the country; and it ought not to be looked upon as a matter of expense, but, on the contrary, as a great economy. There could be no question that in periods of danger a first-class line of steamers would be of great value to the country, and that the country would get value for their money. What could be the value of these steamers to the country in the event of war it was impossible for him to estimate. He did not think it possible for anyone to put it down in pounds, shillings and pence. The Dominion of Canada had done all in their power to connect the Mother Country with the East and the Southern Colonies, and he would express his own opinion and many others most strongly, that no ordinary consideration ought to be allowed to stand in the way of this country doing what remained to be done, and put the last link in the chain and complete the line of communication between the East and this country. It was not a matter that ought to be looked at from the narrow view of economy. The possible advantages to the country were enormous; the possible advantages from a commercial point of view were very large; and he sincerely trusted that in considering this question Her Majesty's Government would not allow themselves to be influenced by small considerations at the present, but that they would consider the great advantages from a commercial point of view in the future.

EARL GRANVILLE

said, that when he was at the Colonial Office about a year ago, he had examined carefully into the matter. He did not undervalue the objection on principle of the Treasury, nor those of some of the naval authorities, against some of the statements made as to the advantages in case of war; but he had come to the conclusion that on the whole it was a thing which ought to be done, subject to some conditions as to detail. The question was again referred to a Committee, which was still investigating the matter when he left Office. He was very glad to hear the Under Secretary say, in regard to what had happened since, that there was some likelihood of a satisfactory arrangement of that question by the Government.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

said, he must express his gratification at the announcement that Her Majesty's Government were still considering the matter. He thought that everybody had understood that the scheme proposed by the Canadian Government was entirely declined. He must take exception to one or two statements of his noble Friend the Under Secretary. He said Her Majesty's Government thought the question too large. If that thing was worth doing at all, it was a very large question indeed. It was much better to leave it alone than deal with it in that spirit. They had to assist in keeping up that feeling of patriotism which was now so strong in the Colonies. They had also to meet the difficulties of our growing population, which pressed upon the means of employment, while at the same time those means of employment were becoming less and less plentiful. The Government had to assist not only from a sentimental point of view, but had to meet the very dangerous condition the country was coming to. He should look with the very gravest apprehension on any proposal to cut down the number or character of the ships. If this country wanted to dominate the Pacific they must be bold in that matter and approach it in such a way as would impress the nations of the world. If they did it in a poor or petty spirit they would defeat the object they had in view and leave the position open to more enterprising nations than ourselves.

Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.