Lords Sitting of 29 April 1887

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Registration of Dogs in the Metropolis * (73).
Report—Railway and Canal Traffic* (60–74).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL—Third Reading—Metropolitan Police* (65), and passed.

THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY— LINE OF ROYAL MAIL STEAMERS FROM VANCOUVER CITY TO HONG KONG, CHINA, AND JAPAN.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY,in rising to ask, What course was intended to be taken by Her Majesty's Government respecting the proposals of the Canadian Government to establish a line of first-class Royal Mail steamers between the Pacific terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway at Vancouver City and Hong Kong, China, and Japan, and to move for Papers, said, that the Question of which he had given Notice arose out of the completion of that very great work the Canadian Pacific Railway. Many Englishmen in the present day had large interests in our Colonies; but he might state that he had nothing personally to do with any Canadian matter in any way whatever. The reason why he felt a very keen interest in this subject was that when he first came into the House of Commons in 1857 he had sat for many weeks on the Hudson's Bay Committee, under the Presidency of his lamented Friend the late Lord Iddesleigh. The question had been whether the Hudson's Bay Charter should be continued or not, and they had decided that the Hudson's Bay rule should be abolished and its territory thrown open to colonization and civilization. He had also had all the confidential Papers on the subject before him in the first Cabinet of his noble Friend the present Prime Minister. He would ask their Lordships to remember that this great Canadian Pacific Railway formed one of the most interesting stories in the modern history of nations. It had created quite a revolution in the Dominion of Canada; and as an instance of that he might mention that a journey which occupied Lord Wolseley and his men 76 days to
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  accomplish, between Toronto and Fort Garry, when he put down the Riel rebellion, could now be performed with the greatest comfort and ease in two days. In fact, this railway was, perhaps, the greatest revolution in the condition of the British Empire that had occurred in our time. He was quite sure that the people of England did not appreciate what a tremendous revolution the creation of that railway had already effected, and would effect in the future. What had that railway actually effected? It had brought the Pacific Ocean within 14 days of the English Coast. Vancouver City, the terminus of the line, could only be reached before that in between two or three months. Suddenly, when this line was completed, they found themselves not only in telegraphic communication with Vancouver, but within 14 days' reach of that vast ocean. He would ask their Lordships to consider what was this British Columbia with which that railway had brought them into immediate connection. There had been a general feeling that its natural fate must lead to its drifting into the great American Union, as they had had little hope of seeing that wonderful railway completed across the Continent. What was this British Columbia, of which Vancouver promised to be the centre? It had 450 miles of coast, a climate of singular merit, excellent fisheries, the most magnificent timber, and a soil suited for every kind of cereal, while gold lay concealed below the soil. It had the only good coal supply on the North Pacific, and possessed a good dry dock. It was true that the entrance to the Strait was commanded by land belonging to America; but there was a channel, admirably suited for large ships, with an average depth of 100 fathoms, which could be made impregnable at small cost. In comparing the time taken to go to Yokohama, Hong Kong, and Shanghai by the best steamers under the new contract for 1888, he found that from England by the Peninsular and Oriental route, viâ Suez and Brindisi, to Hong Kong, took from 33 to 37 days, and by the Canadian Pacific Railway from 32 to 35 days; to Shanghai by the Peninsular and Oriental route 37 to 42 days, by the Vancouver route 32 days; to Yokohama by the Peninsular and Oriental route 41 to 45 days, by Vancouver 27

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  days. By the Cape the time taken to go to Bombay was 31 days, by Vancouver 38 days; to Singapore by the Cape 82 days, by Vancouver 32 days; to Brisbane by the Cape 28 days, by Vancouver 27; to Fiji by the Cape 32 days, by Vancouver 27 days. These were important figures, as showing that if we were barred from the Cape route or the Suez Canal we should have an excellent third alternative route. The Suez route was as precarious as any route could be, and it might be a matter of the gravest difficulty to prevent it from being stopped up. By the Cape route we might have to run the gauntlet of a considerable number of hostile foreign stations if we were at war with either France or Germany. A third great line of communication would, therefore, in case of war, be of infinite value to the whole of the Imperial interests. Beyond that, if this line were once taken up as a great naval line, there must soon follow a line of submarine telegraph from Vancouver to our Australian. Colonies. He had always felt that the country was not sufficiently alarmed as to the danger of our having in time of war our great telegraph lines seriously interfered with. Our communications with India were very much at the mercy of Turkey, and those with China at the mercy of Russia and France; it was, therefore, most desirable that every means of independent communication should be secured. Lord Dufferin had stated—
  "That the effect upon the Native mind of English troops reaching India from the East as well as from the West would be enormous."
  Canada had already done its part nobly in this matter, and the enterprize that it had shown was highly creditable. Canada was only constituted a Dominion in 1867, and in 1870 and 1871 Hudson's Bay and Columbia were admitted. It was only in 1881 that the Canadian Pacific Railway Act was passed, and the construction of some 2,500 miles of railway commenced. According to the contract the work was to be completed by May, 1891; but such was the energy displayed that the last rail was laid in November, 1885. The cost to the Canadian Government was over £24,000,000, and £1,000,000 a-year had to be imposed by way of taxation to meet this cost. This wonderful railway was one of the
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  most remarkable engineering feats of which he had ever heard, and it was only right that in a great Assembly like that they should express their admiration of it. It was a magnificent undertaking, which redounded to the honour of the Canadian people, and with which the names of Sir John Macdonald, Sir George Stephen, and Sir Charles Tupper would ever be associated. In October, 1885, when Lord John Manners was Postmaster General, the Post Office invited tenders for a fortnightly service to begin in February, 1888, between Vancouver, Yokohama, and Hong Kong, to cross the Pacific at the rate of 10½ to 11 knots an hour. The Canadian Pacific Railway sent in a tender for a fortnightly service between Vancouver, Yokohama, and Hong Kong at an average speed of 14 knots, which was the highest rate ever contracted for ocean voyages. The Company undertook to build under Admiralty supervision vessels of first-class type capable of steaming 18 knots, adapted for the conveyance of troops, and also for conversion at short notice into armed cruisers; to carry the Japan and China mails between the Atlantic port and Vancouver free of charge, to carry troops on service between the Atlantic port and Hong Kong at absolute cost, and to carry war materials and Government stores across the Continent at absolute cost. The subsidy which they asked from the British Government was £100,000 a-year. Mr. Holt also sent in a tender for an 11 knots an hour service, and he required £108,000 a-year. He could not believe that the Government would really reject a proposal to take possession of the Pacific by means of a great line of mail steamers set floating under the auspices of our venturous Canadian brethren. To have in the Pacific five first-rate steamers ready for conversion at any moment into armed cruisers could not fail to result in a saving of expenditure during war scares. During the Russian war scare in 1885 Mr. Gladstone's Government chartered as armed cruisers in the Pacific for six months nine vessels for £333,000, and only one of them could attain the minimum speed of the proposed Canadian Pacific ships; whilst some of them were absolutely useless for purposes of war. Then £1,000,000 was also spent to charter transports, many of them being intended

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  for the Pacific. If the proposals which came from Canada wore accepted armaments for the vessels could be kept at Vancouver on the one side and at Hong Kong on the other, so that it would take but a very short time to prepare them to meet an enemy. It might be asked—"Has Canada done her share in this matter of grave Imperial importance?" The reply was that Canada's work with respect to the railway was very great; but she had shown her readiness to go further by advertising for steamers sufficiently speedy to cover the distance between England and Canada in six days. He held that Canada was doing her part of the work nobly. Let England beware lest procrastination on her side resulted in her being forestalled by Germany or Japan. The Government of Japan was quite ready to move in the matter, while some years ago the North German Lloyd Company made inquiries as to whether they would have a chance of opening up this route. He invited the House to consider the difference of opening up the vast commerce of China, Japan, and Australia to British ships representing the Royal Mail Service, and, on the other hand, having those great commercial stations in the hands of the Germans and the Japanese. If it were said that England could not at present afford the subsidy, he would answer—"Economize where you rightly can; if necessary save the money devoted to the new Admiralty and War Offices; cease to buy works of art; cease decorating your parks; but do not postpone acquiring control over this great Pacific line." When the line should have been established the extension of communication with China, Japan, and the Australian Colonies must be most beneficial. The best way to meet the existing depression of trade was to strike out and obtain more frequent communication between England and new markets of the world. We wanted a sense of complete stability—a sense that war would be avoided—and by putting these armed cruisers into the hands of enterprizing Canada we should do more to convince the nations of the world that we were strong than by any other means. With Royal Mail steamers as cruisers in disguise—for that was really what the proposal meant—they would do more towards the peace of the world than by any other device of which they could think. In the
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  world of politics, he feared, there was a tendency to shrink from those great responsibilities of Empire which were crowding in upon us. This tendency, however, had not yet made itself manifest among the people, who would, he believed, agree with him that we ought to follow at sea the example set by the old Roman Empire upon land, and to establish great lines of communication between the scattered portions of the Empire. He felt sure that by taking the course he had advocated the Prime Minister, who was as anxious for federation as anybody could be, would do what was most likely to lead to the practical realization of the idea.
  Moved, "That there be laid before this House papers respecting the proposals of the Canadian Government to establish a line of first class Royal Mail steamers between the Pacific terminus of the Canadian Pacific Raihvay at Vancouver City and Hong Kong, China, and Japan."—[The Earl of Harrowby.)
  LORD BRABOURNEsaid, he was anxious to add a few words to the statement so ably made by his noble Friend upon a subject which he considered of paramount importance. By this Canadian route they would not only obtain regularity and speed, but they would be able to establish with distant countries and with our distant Dependencies communications which would be entirely in British hands, or in the hands of those who had British interests at heart. So far as Canada was concerned, he had the good fortune to have enjoyed the friendship of Canadian statesmen, and especially of Sir John Macdonald, perhaps the greatest Colonist who had ever presided over a British Colony; and he was certain that the wish of Canada, in making the proposals under consideration, was that she might afford greater support to the Mother Country. As Canada was our oldest Colony, so she was the Colony which for the longest period had evinced devoted loyalty to the Mother Country and her institutions. What had Canada now done? With a comparatively small population she had expended an enormous sum in the construction of that Pacific Railway, which was one of the wonders of the age. No doubt, one of her objects had been the consolidation of her own strength and the development of her own resources, but she had other objects in view, and mainly that of in-

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  creasing the power of Great Britain and binding herself by still closer ties to the fortunes of the Empire. Canada, indeed, deserved well of England and of Englishmen, and it would be cause for great regret if anything should prevent the Mother Country from responding to the appeal which the Dominion had. made. He (Lord Brabourne) well knew the position of the Government with regard to expenditure. They had rigid censors of expenditure whom they were bound to regard; but this matter was not one which the Government could refuse to entertain on the ground of economy. Though the enterprize might not be remunerative immediately, at a future time it would very probably repay us ten fold or twenty-fold. But whether or no this was likely to be the case, he urged upon the Government to receive with favour a proposal, the acceptance of which, while gratifying Colonial feeling, would, he confidently expected, lead to the direct and material advantage of Imperial interests.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, he did not propose to follow the noble Earl in his remarks about the advantages of the Canadian and Pacific route; but he could assure him that the Government highly appreciated, in these days, when all the Colonies were stirring themselves with such patriotism towards providing their own defences, the contribution which Canada had made to the defence and unity of the Empire. It was no small achievement for a Colony with less than 5,000,000 people to have contributed £25,000,000 for the construction of a trans-continental railway for the benefit of the Empire. The subject dealt with by the proposal of the noble Earl had been under the consideration of two Committees. The first Committee dealt with it almost entirely from the point of view of commercial and postal advantage, and they were unable to recommend the adoption of the proposal that Her Majesty's Government should contribute £100,000 a-year for a tri-weekly service to Hong Kong. It was found that the mails which went from this country to China and Japan did not bring into the Imperial Exchequer more than some £22,000 a-year. The second Committee considered it in its strategical aspect, and the opinions which were
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  elicited before that Committee from naval officers were not entirely and unmistakably in favour of the proposal. He was bound to say, however, that the opinions of the military officers who were consulted pronounced, he thought without exception, in favour of the proposal. The matters with which those two Committees dealt chiefly concerned the defence of the Empire, and were more or less of a confidential nature; it would not, therefore, be advisable that the Papers should be presented to Parliament. Since these Committees had reported the subject had assumed a somewhat different aspect. It had been proposed that instead of a tri-weekly there should be a fortnightly service for the same contribution, and that the ships should be built according to Admiralty requirements as to speed, construction, and capacity as armed transports. But the Government did not see their way to so large a proposal. Since then a further proposal had been made—namely, that the service, provisionally at any rate, should be monthly, and that Her Majesty's Government should make a contribution of £60,000 a-year. Upon receipt of that communication a telegram was addressed to the Canadian Government inquiring whether they were prepared to assist in contributing towards this subsidy. At first it was understood that the Canadian Government declined to make any contribution whatever. Since then, however, a further communication had been received in which the Canadian Government had expressed their willingness to make some contribution from Canadian funds, and that proposal was at the present moment under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl would, therefore, see that he was not entirely accurate in stating that a decision had already been taken upon the subject by Her Majesty's Government. The Canadian Pacific Company had, he believed, already taken some steps for placing the service in an efficient condition, and he was informed that three ships of the Cunard Company had left Liverpool, and were now on their way to Vancouver with the object of being placed on the service. He assured the noble Earl that the subject was receiving, and would continue to receive, the most careful attention of Her Majesty's Government, and that as soon as a decision was arrived at Papers

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  would be laid before Parliament; but, until the matter was finally settled, he could not present the Papers moved for by the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he supported as far as he could the admirable, clear, and statesmanlike statement of his noble Friend who brought this question forward. There was every reason why the Government should accept the suggestions of his noble Friend, because, as he understood from his noble Friend the Under Secretary, the original subsidy asked of the Government for the Pacific service was £100,000; but this sum had been reduced to £60,000, and ultimately even to £45,000, with a monthly service. That was a comparatively trifling sum, but the expenditure would bring great benefits with it. He doubted, however, whether the saving of the £15,000 on the £60,000 or the £40,000 on the £100,000 was worth making if it involved a monthly instead of a fortnightly service. But he would accept the monthly service, in the hope that it would ultimately lead to a fortnightly service, and that a large and profitable commerce would grow up between Vancouver and China and Japan. He would add nothing to the well-deserved oulogy which his noble Friend had pronounced on the Canadian Pacific Railway, so admirable in its conception, in its construction, and in its completion. The service which it was proposed should be established consisted of three parts. First, there was the steamer service between England and Canada, which was to be carried on in swift vessels subsidized by the Canadian Government; secondly, there were fast trains across the Continent; and, lastly, there was the service in the Pacific Ocean which they were now discussing. Now, there were five distinct Imperial and commercial advantages which would arise from the establishment of this route. First, a rapid through postal and passenger route to the East; secondly, before long a complete and independent British telegraphic line; thirdly, rapid and cheap transport for troops and stores across the Continent to our Eastern Possessions, it being part of the bargain that troops and stores should be carried at cost price; fourthly, as his noble Friend had pointed out, the establishment of a third route to the East in addition to
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  the Suez Canal, which in time of war might easily be blocked, and to the Cape route, which was wholly undefended. This third route, moreover, was entirely through British territory. Fifthly, the ships to be constructed for the Pacific service wore to be constructed so as to serve as cruisers. He heartily concurred in this last provision, which was one of the recommendations of the Defence Commission, whose opinion it was that the exigencies of a great war could only be met by arming our merchant vessels as cruisers. He also understood that the service had been guaranteed for efficiency by one of the largest commercial houses in this country, whose name he would not mention as he had not seen it in print. He would only say further on this point that they must bear specially in mind that since this Canadian Pacific Railway had been completed (he whole character of the docks at Esquimault had undergone a material change. Those docks had now been finished, and a great deal of Imperial money had been spent upon them. There was now at Esquimault a dock which was capable of receiving the largest of our ships. In addition to that guns and armaments might be sent there, and the House must boar in mind that Vancouver Island was the only coaling station we possessed in that part of the world. There was only one other point which he would add to his noble Friend's admirable statement. For several generations this country had pursued a continuous course of policy with regard to Canada, and large sums had been expended is the construction of roads and railways for military purposes. The great Canadian Pacific Railway had now been completed, and he submitted that it would be a misfortune to stop here when we were in sight of the goal which we had been striving for so many years to attain. His noble Friend had referred to a delicate subject to which he would only allude briefly; but it was right that their Lordships should fully understand that if we did not establish our claim to this great maritime highway—if we did not meet the Dominion on this particular question—the service would fall into the hands of another European Power. They must not think that others would be equally negligent of their obvious interests. If that were so the direct

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  advantages which must flow from the establishment of the service would be lost to us, and would be transferred to others; and, worse than that, another foreign influence would and must be established in the Pacific Ocean. However, he would not dwell further upon that point; but he hoped Her Majesty's Government would weigh it carefully. The establishment of a commercial line of steamers for Vancouver would also give a footing to the commerce of the South Pacific. He trusted, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government would come to the conclusion that this was a good bargain, commercially, at the present time, and that it would be a great misfortune if this opportunity wore allowed to slip.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, he could not let this debate go by without expressing how deeply he sympathized and agreed with all that had fallen from the noble Earl who had brought this Motion forward. He had only just come up from the country, and, therefore, he had not the advantage of hearing all that he said; but from what he did hear he was convinced that he went very fully and fairly into the most important points connected with this important subject. His noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had told them that the Government were giving this matter their serious consideration. He believed he had heard these words many times before from various Governments. As a general rule, when he had heard those words he had found the results of that consideration had been nothing. He trusted that in this case, seeing the great importance of the subject, the result would be entirely different. On the commercial aspect of the case it was difficult to speak; but he would point out to their Lordships how it might be under-rated. The great importance of it was to this country that the material prosperity and well-being of Canada should be increased. Canada was a good customer of ours. We had a large trade with the Dominion, and anything that increased the power of producing their goods must be of great advantage to the manufacturing interest of this country. It was impossible to say how far this line of steamers would increase the prosperity of Canada; but he begged their Lordships to remember that so great was the advantage of the Northern
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  route, and so much nearer did it approach to Vancouver Land, that there could be no question that a large contributing trade would take place if Vancouver was connected by steamers with Shanghai and Hong Kong. It was impossible to give an estimate of what value this trade might be; but it would probably be very great. The most important aspect undoubtedly was that it would be an alternative line to our Eastern Colonies, and he did not think it was possible to overestimate the value of this line from that point of view. The noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had told them that all the military authorities he had consulted were in favour of the line, and most of the naval authorities also. That appeared to him a strong and almost unanswerable argument for subsidizing this line of steamers. The value of it from an Imperial point of view could be understood by everyone, as the Suez Canal route would not be available during hostilities. The route they wore now considering would be entirely on British territory on land or water, where vessels conveying goods could not be harassed from the opposition of, any foreign Power; that was an advantage which was very great. He did not think it was a question as to whether this line was worth £40,000 a-year, £50,000 a-year, or £60,000. The question this country had to consider was, whether, if a line of steamers wore established between British North America and our Possessions in the East, it was worth the reasonable sum of money they were asking. The fact that it would be available by first-class steamers steaming 18 knots, capable of carrying troops, capable of being armed at a moment's notice—provided armaments were ready, as he supposed they would be—the value of such a force as that to this country could not be overestimated. The great expense at which the country was placed was commented upon by the noble Earl—a vast amount of shipping was absolutely wasted. A Bill subsidizing this line of steamers, as had been promised, would be a great saving to the country; and it ought not to be looked upon as a matter of expense, but, on the contrary, as a great economy. There could be no question that in periods of danger a first-class line of steamers would be of great value to the country, and that the country would get

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  value for their money. What could be the value of these steamers to the country in the event of war it was impossible for him to estimate. He did not think it possible for anyone to put it down in pounds, shillings and pence. The Dominion of Canada had done all in their power to connect the Mother Country with the East and the Southern Colonies, and he would express his own opinion and many others most strongly, that no ordinary consideration ought to be allowed to stand in the way of this country doing what remained to be done, and put the last link in the chain and complete the line of communication between the East and this country. It was not a matter that ought to be looked at from the narrow view of economy. The possible advantages to the country were enormous; the possible advantages from a commercial point of view were very large; and he sincerely trusted that in considering this question Her Majesty's Government would not allow themselves to be influenced by small considerations at the present, but that they would consider the great advantages from a commercial point of view in the future.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that when he was at the Colonial Office about a year ago, he had examined carefully into the matter. He did not undervalue the objection on principle of the Treasury, nor those of some of the naval authorities, against some of the statements made as to the advantages in case of war; but he had come to the conclusion that on the whole it was a thing which ought to be done, subject to some conditions as to detail. The question was again referred to a Committee, which was still investigating the matter when he left Office. He was very glad to hear the Under Secretary say, in regard to what had happened since, that there was some likelihood of a satisfactory arrangement of that question by the Government.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he must express his gratification at the announcement that Her Majesty's Government were still considering the matter. He thought that everybody had understood that the scheme proposed by the Canadian Government was entirely declined. He must take exception to one or two statements of his noble Friend the Under Secretary. He said Her Majesty's Government thought the question too large.
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  If that thing was worth doing at all, it was a very large question indeed. It was much better to leave it alone than deal with it in that spirit. They had to assist in keeping up that feeling of patriotism which was now so strong in the Colonies. They had also to meet the difficulties of our growing population, which pressed upon the means of employment, while at the same time those means of employment were becoming less and less plentiful. The Government had to assist not only from a sentimental point of view, but had to meet the very dangerous condition the country was coming to. He should look with the very gravest apprehension on any proposal to cut down the number or character of the ships. If this country wanted to dominate the Pacific they must be bold in that matter and approach it in such a way as would impress the nations of the world. If they did it in a poor or petty spirit they would defeat the object they had in view and leave the position open to more enterprising nations than ourselves.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

REGISTRATION OF DOGS IN THE METROPOLIS BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  LORD MOUNT-TEMPLEsaid, he was induced to call attention to the regulations for the prevention of rabies and hydrophobia, because they occasioned great annoyance to people of all classes, and particularly to the poor, who appreciated the companionship of their four-footed friends more vividly than the upper classes, who had more human friends in the country. These regulations were without any effective adequate results. The opposition of public opinion in London had emancipated the dogs from the gagging of their jaws, which was now inflicted in many districts of the country. In one county one dog suspected of rabies ran about biting men, boys, and sheep, and was killed. The dog did not injure the men or the boys, but called forth an order in Council to gag every other dog in the county for a long, indefinite period. He drew away the police from their important duties to watch fox unmuzzled dogs in the roads, and to summon innocent persons to be punished because their dogs jumped over a garden fence into a highway to bark at the police. Muzzling was a barbarous

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  blunder, and a failure. The rabid dogs could not be muzzled, for their impulse was to seek solitude or darkness in the early stages of the disorder, and the few that were muzzled had such violent strength that they tore off the muzzles with their paws. Nature had provided a preliminary period of incubation between the early stages and the complete outburst of the disorder, during which the dog ought to be kept in confinement, and be killed if the rabies became manifest. So the only dogs that were muzzled were the innocent and healthy dogs. He considered the present method of muzzling both injurious to the dogs and inefficient for the purpose of preventing the spread of the disease. The principle upon which he had proceeded in framing Ms Bill was to place a responsibility upon the owner of the dog, who should have presented to him such a statement of the premonitory symptoms of rabies as were set forth in one of the Orders issued by the Agricultural Department of the Council. In addition to the present register of persons who had paid the dog-tax and obtained a licence, there ought to be a register of the dogs themselves as well as of the owners. When the tax was paid he proposed that there should be given to the owner of the dog a badge bearing a number, which should be placed on the collar of the animal. This number being registered could always be seen, and if a dog was found wandering about in the streets or roads without a collar, it would be primâ facie evidence that the animal was ownerless, when it might be taken up by the police. The Bill did not propose to interfere with any of the existing police regulations, but placed it within the power of the authorities to adopt the method of registration he had described and placing the responsibility upon the dog owner as an alternative for the muzzle. This would obviate the great amount of cruelty which was inflicted by the animals having to wear muzzles which did not fit them. A small amount of expense would be thrown upon the costs of the Police, but that would be more than covered by the gain to the Exchequer of the great increase of the Dog Tax, when an obligation had been enforced upon every owner of a dog to obtain a license. It was probable that the tax was not actually received at; present from more than half the persons who kept dogs. This Bill was restricted
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  to the Metropolis, where the most efficient organization of police was found, but it might be afterwards extended all over England.
  Bill to amend the Metropolitan Streets Act, 1867, and to provide for the compulsory registration of dogs over the age of six months in the Metropolis—Presented (The Lord MOUNT-TEMPLE).
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)said, he was very willing that every feasible moans whereby a dangerous disease might become less prevalent, if not stamped out altogether, should be adopted, but he was not prepared to admit that the muzzle had been so painful and ineffective as the noble Lord believed. In 1885 rabies rose to so great a height in the Metropolis that one veterinary surgeon alone had no less than 77cases before him; besides which 28 people died in and close to London from hydrophobia. Now, after the police regulations with regard to the muzzling of dogs, or leading them by a string, were put in force, the number of cases in the Metropolis fell to two, and that, he submitted, was a strong indication that the police rules had done a great deal to mitigate the disease. Rabies being a disease only communicated by saliva, it was a remarkable fact that in certain parts of the country where the people kept fighting dogs the disease was constantly prevalent. Looking abroad he found that in Berlin rabies and hydrophobia formerly prevailed to a very great extent, and for nine years the whole of the dogs in the City were put in muzzles, and so rigidly was the law carried into effect that during the whole of that period not one human being was attacked by hydrophobia. Nor did he believe himself that the muzzle was injurious to the dog. At the present moment there was the remarkable case of the deer in Richmond Park, among which rabies had broken out. That outbreak must be due to some afflicted dog having bitten one or more deer, these in turn communicating the malady by the saliva from one to another, because they might be seen tearing their own flesh, the others then coming and licking the place where the flesh had been torn away, the result being that a number of the deer had had to be put to death, and the others put under control lest the disease should spread. He would not seek

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  to interfere with the noble Lord laying his Bill on the Table, because he would be glad to have advantage taken of every method by which this painful disease might be prevented. The whole subject was one in which the more they could come to accurate conclusions the better; but he was sure, from the reports made to him, that the best authorities were strongly of opinion that the disease might be stamped out altogether by a system of muzzling being universally adopted and carried out for a sufficient length of time.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he was not an enemy of dogs, but he was a greater friend of men, and he agreed with the noble Viscount that there was no real objection to the use of the muzzle. He could not understand why people allowed their fondness for their dogs to go so far that, because of the suffering which they said was inflicted on dogs by muzzling, they were prepared to run the frightful risk of spreading the disease or, at least, of preventing its mitigation. He was thoroughly convinced from what he had heard that if proper precautions were taken for a sufficient time we should practically get rid of the disease. Even taking the lowest ground, the consequence of such steps would be that they would relieve the whole dog race from a frightful torture. He hoped that both in the Metropolis and throughout the country the authorities would not be deterred by the outcry of those who did not like to see their pet dogs in what they considered a painful position from carrying out such regulations.
  Bill read 1a (No. 73.)

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES—THE INDEPENDENT MUTUAL BRETHREN FRIENDLY SOCIETY—REPORT OF THE CHIEF REGISTRAR.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF HAELBOROUGHsaid, he rose to call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the Report made to the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies in the case of the "Independent Mutual Brethren Friendly Society," containing grave charges of misapplication of the Society's funds on the part of the persons mentioned in the Report, which Report had been laid on the Table of that House, and had been the subject of much comment in the public Press;
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  and to ask his Lordship whether he intended to take any action in the matter, with the view of having such charges investigated; and whether the Public Prosecutor had been instructed to take the necessary steps to have the parties implicated brought to justice; and, secondly, whether Her Majesty's Government intended to bring in a Bill for the more effectual prevention of such practices in future, and for the protection of provident people of the working class and their widows and orphans from similar frauds. He was glad to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night had stated that it was the desire of Her Majesty's Government to deal with this question. There was nothing more remarkable at the present time than the fact that the principle of thrift and economy was growing very largely among the people of this country, as shown by the spread of friendly societies in the last few years, and the enormous sums invested in the Post Office and other savings banks. As Her Majesty's Government had undertaken grave and important functions, it was, therefore, more necessary that these matters of private enterprize should be controlled by the action of the Legislature. He wished to call their Lordships' attention to one fact in the Report made in 1885 with regard to the society to which he had alluded. The Trustees had already been prosecuted by the Registrar-General for not fulfilling the conditions laid down by the Act of Parliament. The Registrar General had informed him that these were matters of perpetual occurrence. The large Friendly Insurance Companies were governed by an Act of Parliament which gave the Registrar General no control over them. An Insurance Company, which was really composed of a small body of Directors, and which had intrusted to it such enormous sums derived from a number of small subscriptions, was an institution which ought to be rigidly controlled by Parliament. Year after year these poor persons who had set aside their savings had done so by depriving themselves of certain pleasures, and, after years of saving, they were liable to see this fund lost through the rascality or improvidence of others.
  LORD GREVILLEsaid, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would confer a great benefit on the poor, if by legislation he could protect them against

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  the dishonest practices of which they were now frequently the victims.
  THE LORD CHANOELLOB (Lord HALSBURY)said, he did not think that the noble Duke had at all exaggerated the importance of this subject. The difficulty of legislation on such a point, however, was that there was a desire to leave something to the independent action of these societies, to permit them to establish themselves in a way conformable to their own wishes, subject to what might be called State control to prevent fraudulent practices. It might be—he did not say that it was so—that the State control was not sufficiently strong to accomplish that object; but it would be very undesirable to take away from those societies all control over themselves. With regard to the particular case to which the noble Duke had called attention, he hoped he would be excused if he refrained from referring to its particulars, as the matter was now before the Public Prosecutor, and it would, therefore, not be desirable or right for him to discuss the case. It certainly was a very sad one, and, whatever the legal result of the investigation now proceeding might be, he might say that if the state of the law were such that such practices as those were beyond its reach, then the state of the law urgently demanded reform.

RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL.
(The Lord Stanley of Preston.)
(NO. 60.) REPORT.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
Clause 5 (Sittings of Commissioners).
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment made:—
In clause 5, page 3, line 6, at end of clause, insert as a fresh sub-section—"If the President of the Board of Trade is satisfied either of the inability of an appointed Commissioner to attend at the hearing of any case, or of there being a vacancy in the office, and in either case of the necessity of a speedy hearing of the case, he may appoint a temporary Commissioner to hear such case, and such Commissioner, for all purposes connected with such case, shall, until the final determination thereof, have the same jurisdiction and powers as if he were an appointed Commissioner. A temporary Commissioner shall be paid such sum by the Commissioner so unable to sit, or, if the office is vacant, cat of the salary of the office, as the President of the Board of Trade may assign."
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment made:—After clause 5 insert—
(Appointment of additional judge.)
"It shall be lawful for Her Majesty, having regard to the business required by this Act to be transacted by the ex officio Commissioners, and to the proper transaction of the business of the superior court in England, to appoint an additional judge of such court, and from time to time to fill any vacancy in such judgeship, and the law relating to the appointment and qualification of the judges of such superior court to their duties and tenure of office, to their precedence, salary, and pension, and otherwise, shall apply to any judge so appointed under this section, and a judge so appointed under this section shall be attached to such division or branch of the court as Her Majesty may direct, subject to such power of transfer as may exist in the case of any other judge of such division or branch."
Clause 15 (Appeals on certain questions to superior court of appeal).
LORD GRIMTHORPE LORD GRIMTHORPE moved an Amendment with the object of allowing appeals from the decisions of the Commissioners upon questions of fact. He argued that one could never make sure that on a first hearing the full merits of a case would be understood. When the point had been raised in Committee, he was told that Railway Companies were monopolists and rich and that their opponents would be poor. He could not, however, admit that this was a true view of the case.
Amendment moved, in page 6, lines;and 2, to leave out the words ("upon a question of factor.")—(The Lord Grimthorpe.)
THE LOED CHANOELLOB (Lord HALSBURY)said, that matters of fact were usually decided by a jury or an inferior Court, unless they had reason to believe there was a miscarriage of justice. The general principle of law was that upon questions of fact there ought to be no appeal.
On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 36; Not-Contents 14: Majority 22.
Resolved in the negative.
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment made:—
In page 6, line 11, after ("may") insert ("draw all such inferences as are not inconsistent with the facts expressly found, and are necessary for determining the question of law, and have all such powers for that purpose as if the appeal were an appeal from a judgment of a superior court").

PART II.—TRAFFIC.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD,in moving that the following clause be inserted as the first of the Traffic Clauses:—
"The maximum toll, rate, or charge contained in every existing Act of Parliament relating to railways and canals in the United Kingdom shall include the charges for station accommodation, use of sidings, and wharves; and no railway or canal company shall be entitled to make any additional charges therefor, excepting in all cases where a specific charge in respect of such matters, or either of them, is expressly authorised by such existing railway or canal Act,"
said, as representing the traders, they did not much object to all terminal charges, as some of them were fair; but those were protected in the latter part of his clause. At the present hour the Railway Companies could erect a large station and apportion the price of the station over the traffic, so as to pay the interest on the outlay upon the station. The traders objected to this. No such power was contemplated in the earlier Acts of Parliament. It was never intended that they should charge, not only for the line, but also for the stations. It was not so many years ago that terminal charges were unknown in this country. The idea of the charges came from America, where the Companies merely constructed an iron road, and then built the stations as private speculations, recouping themselves for their outlay by terminal charges. At a comparatively recent date the practice of terminal charges was introduced into this country. He had considerably modified his former proposal, yielding largely to the Railway Companies, and hoped that his clause, as amended, might be accepted by Her Majesty's Government.
Amendment moved,
In page 7, line 26, after (" Part II.- Traffic") insert new clause—"The maximum toll, rate, or charge contained in every existing Act of Parliament relating to railways and canals in the United Kingdom shall include the charges for station accommodation, use of sidings, and wharves; and no railway or canal company shall be entitled to make any additional charges therefor, excepting in all cases where a specific charge in respect of such matters, or either of them, is expressly authorised by such existing railway or canal Act."—(The Earl of Crawford.)
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he did not object to the clause, but thought the first portion of it was unnecessary, inasmuch as under the existing law a Railway Company could not make terminal
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charges unless it were empowered to do so by a special Statute.
LORD HENNIKERsaid, that he thought the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell) was wrong on this point to some extent. No doubt the law had always been laid down as he had said—namely, that maximum rates included terminals. This, however, had all been reversed by a recent case—Hall's case—and the law was now in a very unsatisfactory condition. The decision in this case was not really on the merits, but as to whether an appeal would lie from the Divisional Court. By an accident, the Railway Commissioners were the only inferior Court from which an appeal to the highest Court did not lie; and so the judicial decisions and the law, as established for many years, was reversed on a technical point. He was of opinion, therefore, that the present position of the question was most unsatisfactory, and that, as the present law was by no means clear on the subject, this clause ought to be added to the Bill.
LORD GRIMTHORPEremarked, that some Companies had the power to charge terminals while others had not, and where they had the power they ought to keep it.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Lord STANLEY of)said, he could not accept the clause which the noble Earl proposed to introduce. A change had taken place since the first days of railways. It was at first supposed that Railway Companies were merely owners of the way; but they became carriers, and then other duties were assumed by them. Having pointed out other considerations, they finally said that whatever was necessary for the use of the Railway as carriers should be covered by the carriage rate, and whatever fell within the exception might be the subject of special charge. If Railway Companies provided accommodation of a character or extent far beyond that required for the actual traffic, then the terminal charges were not to be considered with reference to the cost, but with reference to the accommodation really necessary. The question of terminal charges was to be considered by the Railway Companies in framing their schedules, which they would have to submit to the Board of Trade; the parties would be heard on both sides, and he believed that in many

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cases perfectly fair arrangements would be come to. Those schedules and rates would be embodied in Bills which would come before Parliament in the usual manner, and in dealing with which the fullest opportunity of being heard would be afforded to the parties. He hoped his noble Friend would not press his Amendment, which he could not assent to.
Amendment negatived.
Clause 22 (Revised classification of traffic, and schedule of rates).
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment made:—
In page 7, line 35, at end of line insert ("In the determination of terminal charges of any railway company regard shall he had only to the expenditure reasonably necessary to provide the accommodation in respect of which such charges are made, irrespective of the outlay which may have been actually incurred by the railway company in providing that accommodation").
Clause 23 (Undue preference in case of unequal rates and charges, and unequal service performed).
THE EARL OF JERSEY THE EARL OF JERSEY moved, in page 9, line 34, to insert the words "except in the case of foreign goods." In support of his Amendment, he referred to the differential charges given by the Companies in favour of foreign and colonial beef as against home beef from Liverpool to London. This difference, it was argued, was necessary in order to secure the traffic in the interest of the public; but it was a great hardship that the producers in this country should find themselves placed in competition with foreigners who did not pay the same rates and taxes, and who had frequently a bounty besides. He could not look upon the arrangement in any other light than as unfair preference. It was contrary to the principles of fair trade, if not even contrary to common sense; and it was certainly highly injurious to the home trade. He hoped the noble Lord would have some regard to the interest of the home trade, and not permit the Railway Companies to give this preference to foreigners.
Amendment moved, in page 9, line 34, after ("may") to insert ("except in the case of foreign goods").—(The Earl of Jersey.)
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)said, he could assure his noble Friend that it had been the great object of the Government to mitigate and do away with the grievances to which he had called attention. They had taken great pains in the wording of this clause, and they certainly thought they had attained the result at which his noble Friend aimed in the Amendment he had pro- posed. He did not in the least differ from the noble Lord in the inference he drew from the illustration he had given. He thought great injury had been done to British trade in various articles by the inequality of railway rates. But he wished to call the noble Lord's attention to some words at the end of the clause, which appeared to him to make all the difference. The noble Lord would observe that the wording of the clause was this—that if there was a difference in the treatment of British goods or foreign goods, which was the case submitted by the noble Lord, the burden of proof would be on the Railway Company to show that no undue preference existed, and they were to be allowed to show that an undue preference did not exist. In certain cases—and this was what his noble Friend objected to—where this lower charge and difference of treatment were necessary for the security of the traffic in respect of which they were given, it might not be an undue preference. He wanted his noble Friend to observe that there were two most important qualifications which, it seemed to him, would utterly prevent the occurrence of those cases to which the noble Earl had very justly taken objection. There were two safeguards in the clause; in the first place, the Commissioners were only to do this so far as they thought reasonable, and then the larger one, that the Railway Company might only do it to secure the traffic in the interests of the public. They could not do it merely to swell their own receipts and make their dividends larger; they must show that there was a distinct public interest in carrying traffic from, say, Liverpool to London by rail instead of by sea. He hoped the noble Lord would not press his Amendment, because if consumers once got the idea that, in consequence of legislation which they considered in favour of the agricultural interest, wheat was made dearer, they

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would find such a state of things as would be very difficult to cope with. What they desired was fairplay for the British producer, without any suspicion that they were asking for Protection. There were many people ready enough to fix that stigma upon them. By the noble Lord's Amendment foreign goods were to be placed on a distinctly lower level than home goods.
THE EARL OF JERSEY: No; on the same level.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, no. There was a special provision given in the case of home goods, which the noble Lord struck out in the case of foreign goods. It would be impossible, with those words, to disclaim the repeated charge of Protection which would be infallibly made against them. He would make no promise; but the Government wore very much disposed to see whether they could not, in the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord (the Earl of Selborne), find some further security for the grievance complained of by his noble Friend. If any further security could be got, it must be through some legislation of the kind. He earnestly hoped the noble Lord would not stamp the Bill with the opprobrium of Protection by moving the insertion of his Amendment.
THE EARL OF JERSEYsaid, he disclaimed any idea of Protection, but only desired to point out that at present American and other foreign goods were placed on the English market on more favourable terms than those of the English producer.
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, the only effect of putting higher rates on foreign goods would be that they would come by sea to London at higher cost, and the price of meat to the consuming classes in London would be higher than it was now. Railway Companies did not charge those rates out of any love for foreigners, but because they were the best rates they could get without driving the trade from Liverpool to London. To adopt the clause would be as much Protection as possibly could be. "What right has Parliament to take away this right from Railway Companies without compensation?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNdid not agree with the noble and learned Lord who had just sat down. He hoped this matter would go to a Division.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, the noble and learned Lord had conclusively shown that, owing to the preferential rates accorded by the Railway Companies to foreign produce, the price was artificially brought down below that at which that produce could be profitably conveyed by sea to the port of sale. These preferential rates constituted a practical bounty on foreign as against English produce, and were, therefore, in his opinion, distinctly opposed to the principles of Free Trade. We censured foreign Governments for giving bounties to their subjects; but that was less objectionable than giving bounties, as we thus did, to foreigners.
On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 11; Not-Contents 23: Majority 12.

CONTENTS.

Bath, M.

Ravensworth, E.

Beauchamp, E.

Harlech, L.

Camperdown, E. [Teller.]

Hartismere, L. (L. Henniker.)

Fortescue, E.

Sinclair, L.

Jersey, E. [Teller.]

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford and Balcarres.)

Lindsay, E.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Halsbury, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Elphinstone, L.

Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.)[Teller.]

Salisbury, M.

Harris, L.

Hopetoun, L. (E. Hopetoun.)

Mount Edgcumbe, E. (L. Steward.)

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) [Teller.]

Powis, E.

Waldegrave, E.

Lyttleton, L.

Poltimore, L.

Balfour of Burley, L.

Stanley of Preston, L.

Brabourne, L.

Tweeddale, L. (M. Tweeddale.)

Bramwell, L.

Burton, L.

Winmarleigh, L.

Colville of Culross, L.

Wynford, L..

Denman, L.

Resolved in the negative.
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment made:—After Clause 23, insert the following Clause:—
(Extension of enactments as to undue preference to goods carried by sea.)
"The provisions of section two of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1854, and of any enactment amending and extending that section, shall apply to traffic by sea in any vessels belonging to or chartered by any railway company, in the same manner and to the like extent as they apply to the land traffic of a railway company."
On the Motion of The Lord STANLEY of PRESTON, the following Amendment

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made:—In page 10, leave out Clause 25, and insert the following Clause:—
(Classification table to be open for inspection. Copies to be sold.)
"(1.) The book, tables, or other document in use for the time being containing the general classification of merchandise carried by goods train on the railway of any company, shall, during all reasonable hours, be open to the inspection of any person without the payment of any fee at every station at which merchandise is received for conveyance, and the said book, tables, or other document as annually revised shall be kept on sale at the principal office of the company at a price not exceeding one shilling.
"(2.) The company shall within one week after application in writing made to the secretary of any railway company by any person interested in the carriage of any merchandise which have been or are intended to be carried over the railway of such company, render an account to the person so applying in which the charge made or claimed by the company for the carriage of such merchandise shall be divided, and the charge for conveyance over the railway shall be distinguished from the terminal charge (if any), and if any terminal charge is included in such account the nature and detail of the terminal expenses in respect of which it is made shall be specified.
"(3.) Every railway company shall publish at every station at which merchandise is received for conveyance, a notice, in such form as may be from time to time prescribed by the Board of Trade, to the effect that such book, tables, and document touching the classification of merchandise and the rates as they are required by this section and section fourteen of the Regulations of Railways Act, 1873, to keep at that station, are open to public inspection, and that information as to any charge can be obtained by application to the secretary or other officer at the address stated in such notice.
"(4.) Any company failing to comply with the provisions of this section, shall, for each offence, and in the case of a continuing offence for every day during which the offence continues, be liable, on summary conviction, to a penalty not exceeding five pounds."
Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 74.)
House adjourned at half past Eight o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.