HL Deb 28 April 1887 vol 314 cc168-78

(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

(NO. 54.) SECOND READING.

Bill read 2a (according to Order).

EARL DE LA WARR

, in rising to move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, said, that he did so wishing to submit to their Lordships whether the questions which were dealt with in it did not require more information than their Lordships were probably in possession of, and whether important interests which were involved in the changes proposed in this measure did not demand more attention and consideration than could be given in the ordinary course of a Bill in passing through that House. He believed he was not wrong in saying that it was not unusual in such cases to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. This Bill was not one of an ordinary character. In the first place, it involved great and fundamental changes. The principle of tithe, as their Lordships knew, was that it was a charge upon the produce of land, and the same principle was adhered to by the commutation of 1836, when tithe in kind was commuted for a rentcharge depending upon the average prices of corn, wheat, bailey, and oats in the last seven years. But this Bill instead of dealing with the tithe rent-charge as a liability upon the produce of land made the owner of the land personally liable for it, so that he "may be sued for such arrears as for a simple contract debt." This was a fundamental change of very serious importance entirely altering the nature of tithe or tithe rent charge as a tenth of the produce of land, and converting it into a debt for which the landowner was personally liable, instead of the owner of tithe rent-charge having as now the power of distress upon the occupier of land. Instead of this, if this Bill passed, he would have power through the Law Courts to seize any personal property of the landowner. Then he would further beg to call their attention to the fact that in this Bill, so far as he could see, there was no provision whatever for a re-adjustment of the tithe rent-charge in consideration of the great fall in the value of agricultural produce since the commutation in 1836. The tithe of an acre of corn land about that time would have been worth probably not less than 40 per cent more than it was at the present time. The commutation of tithe into rent-charge was made upon some such basis. About that time also we were growing in this country about 16,000,000 or 17,000,000 quarters of wheat annually, while according to the reports of the harvest of 1886 the quantity grown was only about 7,000,000 quarters. He could not see in this Bill any recognition whatever of facts such as these. Then they had to consider what would be the effects of this Bill with regard to existing contracts of tenancy. It was true that there was in this Bill a clause (5) dealing with this question, and it might be easy to say, as in this clause, that the "tithe rent-charge shall be added to the rent." But he thought their Lordships would understand that at the present moment of almost unprecedented depression this was more easily said than done, and that while they were, perhaps, relieving the tithe-owner from the difficulty of collecting it they would simply be throwing the burden upon the landowner, whose only remedy would be to increase the rent in proportion, and thus the tenant occupier would be in no way benefited. Then there was the question of redemption. It was true that there was a clause (7) for allowing redemption at 20 years' purchase, but it did not afford any facilities for doing so. He believed that by a well-considered scheme of redemption the value of land would be raised, and the landowner would therefore be better able to make easy arrangements with his tenants until the land, after a term of years, became entirely freed from the rent-charge. He trusted that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) would, by consenting to the appointment of a Select Committee, afford the opportunity of a fuller consideration of the question—which was already one of no little friction and uneasiness—the diffi- culties of which, would not, he believed, in any way be removed by the Bill in its present shape or by Amendments in a Committee of the Whole House without further evidence and information.

Moved, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Earl De La Warr.)

THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECERTARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)

said, his impression was—and it had been increased by the speech of the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr)—that this was not a simple Bill. The matters dealt with in this Bill, such as whether the liability for tithe should be placed on the landowner, whether the question of the original valuation of the tithe should again be raised, and other points, involved questions of principle which could best, he thought, be discussed in this House, and if the Bill was referred to a Select Committee, as the noble Earl suggested, there would, he feared, be a danger of that occurring which occurred with regard to the Church Patronage Bill, that was, that when the Bill came back the House might take an entirely different view from the Committee. Some words which his noble Friend dropped seemed to indicate that he intended not a Select Committee in the ordinary sense, but a Select Committee which should receive evidence. This would mean that the Bill could not possibly be proceeded with further this Session. In view of the earnest expressions of desire for the passing of the Bill which he had received from the clergy in various parts of the country, he should be loth to do anything to deprive them of such hope as they could cherish of getting the Bill passed in the present year. He quite admitted that they might not be successful, because Business had not proceeded with great rapidity in the House of Commons. Still, they ought to do all they could; but if they referred the Bill to a Select Committee to take evidence, their chance would be very small. Therefore, so far as his own opinion went, he should not consent to the Bill going to a Select Committee.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said, he thought the clergy owed the noble Marquess a debt of great gratitude for the care and skill with which he had endeavoured to meet the very great difficulties raised by the Bill. He should be glad to see those difficulties minutely examined; but, at the same time, he was most loth to propose anything "which might in the slightest degree impede the progress of the Bill or run counter to the judgment of the noble Marquess as to the best way of discussing it. He had seen it stated that there was great opposition to this Bill on the part of the clergy, but he had no knowledge of such opposition: on the contrary, he had received much favourable criticism upon it, and that very afternoon he had received from an excellent body that gave great attention to matters of this kind —the Church Defence Association—an intimation that they would consider it little short of a disaster if the Bill were hindered or dropped. Though perhaps more suitable for discussion in Committee, he desired to mention two points on which he had received a great number of communications. The first was contained in Clause 2, which provided that an allowance of 5 per cent was to be made to the landowners who paid their tithe punctually within three months. He did not think that would he a fair arrangement. There were many landowners who had always themselves, and not through tenants, paid their tithe in full, and who did not desire that 5 per cent should be handed over to themselves. At present he knew of many more who were already making arrangements to pay their own tithe without any thought of discount. In none of these cases could the simple withdrawal of 5 per cent from its owners be a just act. Again, a large number of the clergy collected their tithe in full without any cost to themselves. The reason assigned for this deduction of 5 per cent by the landowner was that it would compensate him for his risk, trouble, and expense. But the landowner's risk ought to he nothing, and it could not be computed. The trouble was only the trouble of paying his just debts, and the expense would be much less than the expense incurred in its collection by the tithe-owner, since the landowner could collect the tithe with his rents. Nor did he think that such reduction of 5 per cent would be any inducement to unwilling owners to pay their tithe in time. There was a general impression that the number of the tithe-payers was very much greater than the number of the land- owners, and that it would therefore be a great saving of trouble to the clergy to collect it from the latter instead of from the former. An investigation had now been held on this point. Two parishes in each of five counties had been taken, and in these ten parishes it was recently found that whereas the tithe-payers numbered 883, the landowners were 704; so that the difference was not nearly so great as had been commonly supposed. He hoped to be excused for dwelling for a moment on this point, as, besides its immediate bearing, it had a general interest. In order to verify the above result, which excited some surprise, six other counties were similarly examined, and with the same results. He might state as a still more general expression of the facts, and in corroboration of the minor inquiries, that for the total amount of tithe rent-charge paid to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, the tithe-payers numbered 58,000 and the landowners 37,000. Of course, in considering the pacific effects of this measure, which he trusted would be very considerable, it must be taken into consideration that a great many of the tithe-payers were also landowners. The second point of difficulty to which he desired to call the attention of the House was the 7th clause, which made it compulsory upon the tithe-owner to surrender his tithe rent-charge to the landowner at 20 years' purchase. It was not well, he thought, to draw this hard-and-fast line, for the value of the tithe rent-charge was determined by variable elements—namely, the corn averages, and also the rating, which in different places varied from 7½ per cent to 25 per cent. These and other circumstances made great differences in the number of years' purchase which would represent the value of different rent-charges; for example, compare Norham, where there is one owner and one payer, with Haxsey, where there are 804 payers, and where there would be 428 payers if owners paid, it is evident that Norham is worth many more years' purchase than Haxey would be. He suggested that the Bill should be amended by the insertion of a proviso that the payment far the tithe should be "not less" than 20 years' purchase. He believed that if it were determined that not less than 20 years' purchase should be given the question of the purchase of the tithe by the landowner would in most cases be settled amicably. For land owners and tithe owners who should be unable to agree between themselves simple arbitration ought to be established by reference to the Land Commissioners. But to fix once for all a certain price to be paid to the lithe-owners on all estates in all parts of the country, whether payers were many or few, and without regard to such varying elements as rating and corn charge, would be as fallacious as it would be to fix now the price of Consols 10 years hence.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

said, he did not see any necessity for the Bill being referred to a Select Committee. There were points in the Bill which could be better dealt with by the House than by a Select Committee. The matters to which the most reverend Prelate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had drawn attention would, he hoped, receive careful consideration. The Act of 1836 clearly made tithes a charge upon the landlords, but by contract the tenants in many cases, if not generally, had paid them. It was clear, in point of reason and justice, that the clergy ought not to be prejudiced in their rights in consequence of the contracts between landlords and tenants which had changed the mode of defraying the charge, and that the clergy ought not to be forced into deplorable collisions with their parishioners merely because landlords had made certain arrangements with their tenants and the tenants misunderstood the whole position. The question between the landlord and the tenant was merely one of rent, with which the clergyman ought not to have anything to do; and it was unreasonable that his only remedy for a charge which the law had laid upon the landlord's interest in the laud should be by distress, or for want of a sufficient distress, upon the goods of the tenant. There was one additional point to which he desired to direct attention. The power of distress was taken away by the Bill. That he considered a good thing. But it was necessary to provide some substitute, and he suggested that in cases where the tithe could not be otherwise obtained some simple means should be provided of getting from the County Court an attachment upon the landlord's rent due, or to become due, from the tenant. The tenant would simply be served with notice of the landlord's default and directed to pay so much of the rent to the titheowner. This, he contended, would be a simple way of doing justice unaccompanied by any annoying circumstances.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

said, with reference to the clause providing for the return of 5 per cent to the landlords who made prompt payment, the remedy which the law had given to the tithe-owner was the power to dis-train on the land on which the tithe rent-charge was fixed, and if the landowner was made personally liable, something was given to the Church which it had not before, and something ought to be paid by the Church for the privilege. The tithe-owner ought not to obtain this advantage without paying something for it. He did not attach much importance to the redemption clauses. Tithe had fallen to 85, and many competent judges thought it would fall still lower, to 75 or even 70. Thus the inducement to landowners to redeem was not very great. All turned, it seemed to him, upon a question of policy-—was it or was it not to the advantage of the Church to promote those redemptions? If it were thought to be of advantage to promote those redemptions, unless they offered liberal terms they would have no redemptions. He was inclined to think that there were parts of the country whore redemption would be advantageous to the Church. There were other parts where he was not aware that any difficulty had yet arisen, and therefore the Church might feel easy with regard to the tithes. They had, however, all seen in some parts of the country what seemed to indicate much more serious difficulties hereafter; and, therefore, he thought the Government had done well in putting into the Bill what they thought were the terms of redemption likely to be accepted, though he himself doubted whether those terms were likely to be accepted.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON

said, it should be remembered that if something was to be given to the Church, something was to be taken away from it, because, although they might say the remedy of distraint was of a very odious kind, yet there could be no doubt it was exceedingly effectual, as proved by the rareness with which it had been found necessary to resort to it. As to the remedy against the owner, he might be found very difficult of access, whereas there was no difficulty whatever in finding out where to distrain and what to distrain upon. There was a large amount of land charged with tithe in the diocese of London which was rapidly becoming building land, and 25 years' purchase was readily given by the owner for the tithe. In such cases it would not be fair that the incumbents should lose five years' purchase of their tithe. The Bill gave the landlord power to redeem at any time, but no corresponding power was given to the titheowner. Of course the landowner in these circumstances would choose his own time for redemption, while the titheowner had no such choice of time. If there were a power of compulsory redemption, some other mode should be adopted than that of fixing a hard - and - fast rule of 20 years' purchase. Some experienced body, such as the Land Commissioners, should have power to decide.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (the Earl of ONSLOW)

said, that it was the intention of the Act of 1836 to make tithe a landowners' question. But the remedy being given by distraint against the tenant, landlords invariably made arrangements with their tenants to pay the tithe. The noble Earl who moved the Amendment (Earl De La Warr) said that the effect of the Bill would be that landlords would have to raise their rents. But with respect to existing contracts the landlord would be entitled to add the tithe to the rent, and no fresh contract would have to be entered into. The landowner ought to be considered as well as the tithe-owner. If this Bill passed, the remedy would be not against the goods on a particular farm, but against all the estate, real and personal, of the landlord, and therefore he thought there should be some quid pro quo given up by the tithe-owner. As a rule the landlords of England were at the present time far too impoverished to be anxious to redeem the tithe rent-charge at 25 years' purchase. Only in rare cases was a landlord in a position to find the money for the purpose of redeeming the tithe rent-charge, and it would be hard to compel him to find with great difficulty a considerable sum of money for the purpose of redemption. He believed this measure would have the effect of smoothing away a very serious difficulty. It gave a simpler remedy against a more solvent person, and it removed, at the same time, a great many hardships.

THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH

said, he felt bound to say, in the interest of many of those who were loyal supporters of the Government, and who were as anxious as the noble Marquess to see this Tithe Question settled, that the Bill failed in many respects to meet their wishes. Many of the provisions of the Bill would require very serious consideration in Committee. He contended that in dealing with the question of tithes, they ought to go on the basis of the value of produce, and not on the basis of the value of the land. The views which he wished to put before the House were shared by many who, like himself, were supporters of the Government. They considered that a 5 per cent reduction would not meet the exigencies of the case, and they likewise considered that 20 years' purchase of the average tithe would not in any way render it possible for the redemption to take place. The present net annual value of the tithe was £64, and it was impossible to suppose that any landowner would buy at 20 years' purchase. The only prospect of success for such a measure was that some scheme of gradual purchase should be rendered possible. The agricultural interest would certainly not be satisfied, and it was evident that some modification would be required not only in the interest of the landlord, but also in the interest of the tenant. There was no protection to the tenant that he would not be forced to pay the tithe, in case the landlord defaulted; on the other hand, there was no protection to the landlord that if he paid, he would be able to recover his rent in the case of annual tenants.

EARL STANHOPE (for Earl DE LA WARR)

asked leave to withdraw the Motion to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. He desired to add two words respecting the Bill. In his opinion, it was most desirable, in the interests of the Church, that tithes should be paid directly by the landlord. Had time allowed of it, he could have pointed out how easily teinds were paid in this way in Scotland, and also under what Acts these payments were regulated. As to the recovery of tithes, he thought that if the remedy of distress were given up, there was no alternative but that of giving the tithe-owner a right of personal action. Three years ago, he (Earl Stanhope) had brought forward a Tithe Bill which was founded on this same principle, because there seemed to be no other ready means to promote the object in view. As to redemption, he should prefer an easier means provided by which the principal and interest of the rent-charge might be discharged in a certain number of years. In the 7th section of the Irish Church Act Amendment Act, there was a Proviso to this effect, and he now begged to give Notice that he would move a similar clause when the Bill went into Committee.

LORD EGERTON OF TATTON

desired to confirm, to the fullest possible extent, what had been said by the most rev. Prelate as to the view taken by the clergy of this Bill. He had the honour of presiding that day over a representative body of clergy and laity, and a resolution was passed by it unanimously— That the Government Bill now before the House of Lords is recognized as a friendly attempt to meet the difficulties of the present crisis, and while regarding the Bill as capable of improvement in points of detail, it considers it deserving of the support of Churchmen, and earnestly trusts that every effort may he made to pass it without delay. With regard to the remission of 5 per cent to landowners, he thought that some better reasons than he had as yet heard should be given for it. A large number of landowners in the North of England now paid the tithe, and he did not see why they should receive a remission of 5 per cent for doing that which the Act of 1836 always contemplated that they would do. This Act had been for many years favourable to the landowner and he must take the rough and the smooth together, and be prepared at the present time to make some sacrifices. He hoped the Government would persevere with the Bill as a fair solution of a difficult question.

EARL FORTESCUE

heartily thanked Her Majesty's Government for bringing in the Bill. It would be a great relief to the clergy to be freed from bickerings connected with the present mode of collecting the tithe.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

hoped their Lordships would be able to come to some agreements in Committee. He was glad to find that the House had generally agreed to accept the measure, though several points of detail, no doubt, required to be carefully looked into. The 5 per cent raised a thorny question; but he was not without hope that some adjustment might be found. He should be glad to facilitate advances for tithe redemption, which undoubtedly could not be carried out without some assistance of that kind; but, whether in the present state of the national finances it could be done, he did not know. At all events, he should be glad to facilitate it. With regard to the question raised by the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough), he had a distinct opinion that the landowner had no case whatever. His impression was, that if anyone had to complain it was the tithe-owner. The whole fall had been in the price of grain, and he very much doubted if there had been any fall at all in the price of green crops, or of stocks. That made it all the worse for those who came into the arrangement of 1836. If there was any case at all, it was on behalf of the clergy, and not against them. That, however, was a matter which could not be mixed up with the present Bill. If it was to be dealt with at all it must be by a separate measure.

Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday the 13th of May next.