Lords Sitting of 17 May 1886

MINUTES.
SAT FIRST IN PARLIAMENT—The Lord Forester, after the death of his brother.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Customs and Inland Revenue* (112); Rivers Pollution Prevention* (114); West Indian Incumbered Estates* (115); British North America)* (116).
Second Reading—Infants (86); Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension (89).
Select Committee—Church Patronage* (63), nominated.
Committee—Report—National Debt * (100).
Third Reading—Drowned Persons (Discovery and Interment) * (77); Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment * (78), and passed.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—First Reading—Commons Regulation (Stoke) * (102); Commons Regulation and Inclosure (Totternhoe) * (103); Local Government* (104); Local Government (No. 2) * (105); Local Government (Poor Law)* (106); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 2)* (107); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 3)* (108); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 4) * (109); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 5)* (110); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 6)* (111).
Committee—Report—Local Government (Ireland) (Fermoy) * (32).

UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD BALFOUR, in rising to ask the Secretary for Scotland, Whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any legislation with regard to the Universities of Scotland during the present Session of Parliament? said, he was prepared to admit that the present was not the most favourable time for obtaining the powers which they sought, having regard to the probabilities of legislation in "another place." But the question had now been pending for a considerable time, and he believed that a Bill would have been passed last year if it had not been for the opposition on one or two points. The measure which was brought forward last Session was an improvement upon its predecessor. It was not for the interests of the Universities that they should be kept in a state of uncertainty as to whether there should be legislation or not; and he hoped the Secretary for Scotland would
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  be able to inform the country whether he intended to make an effort to pass a Bill during the current Session? It would be satisfactory to those whom it concerned to know that the Government had not lost sight of the matter. A Commission was now sitting on the subject of Educational Endowments, and they believed it would be for the public advantage that some questions in regard to bursaries should be dealt with at the same time. The powers of the Commission would expire towards the close of next year, and unless a University Commission were appointed during this Session or early next year the public interest would suffer. The present Commissioners hoped to obtain some advice and assistance from the University Commission; but they would not be able to wait much longer. That was his main reason for putting the Question to the noble Earl.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Earl of DALHOUSIE): It is, of course, impossible to speak with anything like certainty as to what the Government may or may not be able to do during the present Session. It certainly is the intention of the Government, if possible, to introduce a measure dealing with the Universities of Scotland during the present Session of Parliament; but I am not at this moment in a position to say at how early a date we may be able to bring it in. I can say this much—that the terms of the measure have been for some time past under consideration, and that they have been, and are still being, considered with reference to many important suggestions that have been made from various quarters since this question was last before your Lordships' House, together with the recommendation of the noble Lord (Lord Balfour of Burleigh). The Government will bear that in mind, and endeavour to bring in a measure as soon as possible.

INFANTS BILL.—(No. 86.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
INFANTS BILL.—(No. 86.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL), in moving that the Bill be read a second time, said, that a measure having for its object the amendment of the law relating to the guardianship of

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  infants passed the House of Commons early in the Session of 1884, and came up to their Lordships' House towards the close of that Session. On the suggestion of Lord Cairns, whose loss he deplored very much, and who, he believed, would have been a supporter of the measure, it was considered too late to deal with it that Session, and on that ground the Bill was not proceeded with. In the Autumn Session of that year the Bill was again introduced by his noble Friend on his right, received a second reading, and was referred to a Select Committee. On that Select Committee were his noble and learned Friend (the Earl of Selborne), Lord Cairns, his noble Friend on his right, and other noble Lords. In the result the measure came back in a considerably modified form, and met in the House with other modifications. The Bill passed their Lordships' House, and was sent down to the House of Commons, where it received a second reading; but it was not read a third time, owing to the Prorogation. That Bill was, with one substantial exception, precisely the same as the Bill now before their Lordships. He would not argue on the justice of such a measure, except to say that, in a matter in which many of the women of this country took the deepest interest, a Parliament of men returned entirely by male electors should take care that no injustice was done to women. Even if they introduced a modification of the franchise, men would still form the vast majority of the electorate, and so long as they had the power in their hands they were bound to try to look at the question as women looked at it. They should look at the nature of the case, and dispose of it as justice demanded. The Petitions which had been presented, and which were not the work of any organization, but had come spontaneously from different parts of the country, showed that there was a deep and real feeling in favour of the Bill, and the letters he had received confirmed that view. The provisions of the Bill might be summed up chiefly as three. It was proposed that where the husband had not appointed a guardian to his children the wife became the guardian, and even where the husband had appointed a guardian that the wife became guardian jointly with the person so appointed. The Bill retained to the full the superior right of the father while
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  living; but when the father was dead he was not considered just that the right which he possessed while living could ought to be handed over by will to other, so as to make the mother stranger to the children. It was considered only right that the mother, to whose care the children owed so much in early years, should have a voice in the guardianship. The Bill then provided for another case. If the mother by will had chosen to appoint a provisional guardian on her death, if it could be shown to the Court that the father was not fit to be the sole guardian of the children, the guardian so appointed by the mother might be allowed to act jointly with the father, or as the Court ordered. That would not deprive a father who was fit to be the sole guardian of his right. There were many cases in which, though extreme unfitness could not be shown, yet it would be possible to show that the father was not fit to remain sole guardian of his children. In extreme cases of bad morals or indecency the Court had power to prevent a father acting as guardian of his children, and that power would remain. Then there was a provision to enable the Court, upon the application of the mother, to permit access to the children and to give instructions as to their custody. The Court was to have regard to the welfare of the infants, to the conduct of the parents, and to the wishes of the mother as well as the father, and such instructions might be varied or discharged from time to time as the Court might think fit. The only new provision was to the effect that in any case where a decree of judicial separation or divorce had been pronounced the Court might declare the parent whose conduct had been the cause unfit to have the custody of the children; and in such a case the parent so deprived would not be entitled on the death of the other to the care or custody of the children.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that no provision was made in the Bill for costs of proceedings, though, as they all knew, there were such things as vexatious applications. As the law now stood, if the wife sued for divorce or separation, her husband was liable for the costs of her

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  solicitor. He did not know whether that would be so in a case under this Bill. He thought it would be desirable that such provision should be made as to costs. It might prevent vexatious applications against the husband.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he was glad to be able to support the second reading of the Bill, as he thought that in its present shape it was very much improved. He thought, however, that it would require to be closely and carefully examined in the Committee stage. He referred chiefly to Clause 2, which was almost the principal clause in the Bill, and which seemed to be an absolute statement that no matter what her condition or her conduct the wife was to be the guardian of the children.
  LORD HALSBURYsaid, he would urge that there should be proper safeguards in the Bill to insure the fitness of the guardian appointed by the mother.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPwas glad that Clause 7, refused last year, had been introduced into the present Bill; but he thought that the powerful reasons which induced the promoters of the Bill to restrict the sole guardianship of the mother in that clause were also applicable in restraint of the power of appointment given in the first paragraph of Clause 3.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he thought the point raised by his noble and learned Friend near him (Lord Ashbourne) was really met by the provision in Clause 6, by which the Court might not only remove a testamentary guardian, but any guardian under this Bill, wherever it would be deemed to be to the welfare of the infant. As to the suggestion of his noble and learned Friend on his right, he could only say that he would carefully consider the matter.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

MALTA.—RESOLUTION.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH moved for—
"Copies of all correspondence having reference to the Maltese nobility which has been addressed to or has emanated from the Colonial Office since August 1883, up to the present date."
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE), in assenting to the Motion, said, he had
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just laid the Papers on the Table, by command of Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to.
Copies or extracts of correspondence with reference to the Maltese nobility (in continuation of [C.-3812.], August 1883):
Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

INCUMBENTS OF BENEFICES LOANS EXTENSION BILL.—(No. 89.)
(The Duke of Buckingham.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Duke of BUCKINGHAM), in moving that the Bill be read a second time, explained that its object was to remove difficulties which the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty found themselves in in regard to the repayment to them of the loans which had been made to incumbents of benefices. The Bill proposed to enable the Governors to meet the difficulty by extending the time of the mortgages, and to reduce the payment of the instalments by a considerable amount, without diminishing the security. The reason for the introduction of the measure was the great fall that had taken place in the value of the glebe lands on which the loans were secured. In the case of one benefice, the income of which was nominally £325 per annum, it was now reduced to £250. In another case an income of £672 was represented by a yield last year of £265; and in a third case, where the income was stated at £361, only £181 had been realized.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Duke of Buckingham.)
THE EARL OF POWISsaid, he considered that the only question was how far the term should be extended. He was afraid that the extension given by this Bill might create a hardship in some cases where the incumbent would have to pay instalments on a mortgage created years before he had come into the living. There were very few cases in which the works in respect of which the loans were granted would last 50 years.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY (Dr. BENSON)said, he hoped that their Lordships would read the Bill a

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second time. The extension which was prayed for in it was very necessary, and involved no alteration in principle. Thirty years had formerly been calculated as the time within which loans were to be repaid; but owing to the late depression in agriculture it had been found that 30 years was not a sufficiently long period, and one extension had been already granted. Owing to the continued depression the extension then granted was not sufficient, and there was a necessity for the extension for which the Bill asked.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART—THE WORKS OF MR. WATTS, R. A.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS, in rising to ask the Lord President of the Council, Whether any arrangements had been or were about to be made for the satisfactory exhibition and safe custody of the valuable works of Mr. Watts, R.A., which, he had so generously given to the nation? said, that in putting his Question on the Paper he had had two objects in view. In the first place, to find out whether accommodation of a satisfactory character could be given for these pictures; and, in the second place, be had been anxious to call attention to this noble gift on the part of Mr. Watts, R.A., and to obtain from Her Majesty's Government some public recognition of it. As regarded the custody of these pictures, he hoped that his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council (Earl Spencer) had found some means of accommodating them at South Kensington; but with, regard to their safe custody, though he had no doubt that his noble Friend would tell them that there were hydrants and fire engines, &c, he feared that he would not be able to say that they were in a fire-proof building any more than our National Collection in Trafalgar Square. His main object, however, was to call attention to this very noble gift on the part of Mr. Watts. He thought that whoever was conversant with Mr. Watts's works could not fail to have understood and appreciated the high ideal he had always set before himself, his lofty sentiments, his poetic conceptions, and the noble purposes to which he had devoted his art. Of his
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  art it might truly be said that it was imbued with the truest, purest spirit of the Greeks, and that his poetical conceptions are embodied in the noblest forms, remarkable no less for their beauty of outline and anatomical correctness than for the purity and chastity of his treatment of the nude. And if he (the Earl of Wemyss) were to point to one of Mr. Watts's great works which more than another successfully embodied on the canvas his mind and genius, and was typical of his art, he would point to that grand allegory of "Love and Death," where the helplessness of love was shown, when, struggling at the portal with outstretched arm and battered wings, it vainly strove to stay the onward march of the dread messenger and his entrance into the loved one's home. The character of Mr. Watts's art, and his power of successfully embodying his poetical conceptions and high ideal, were due, first, to the innate genius of the man; but he (the Earl of Wemyss) thought he would himself tell them that his success was not less owing to his having been a constant and devoted worshipper at the shrine of Phidias, before the noblest representations of human form of which the world was cognizant, and which were to be found in the Elgin room of the British Museum. That gift was one of great generosity, especially having regard to the fact that Mr. Watts was far from being a wealthy man; and he hoped that the Government, speaking on behalf of the nation, would express their sense of his signal liberality and public spirit.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER)said, he had great pleasure in answering the Question of the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss), because he shared with his noble Friend the warm admiration which he had expressed for the works of this distinguished artist. It was, however, necessary that he should explain what had occurred in the matter. Some time ago he received a letter from Mr. Watts, stating that he was considering whether he should offer to the nation some of his works, and he asked him (Earl Spencer) whether he could hold out any encouragement to the idea? As President of the Council, he replied that he felt sure the nation would regard with gratitude so munificent an offer as this coming from an artist whose fame

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  was so great, and he added that the Privy Council, and he himself (Earl Spencer), would do all in their power to promote the object he had in view. Subsequently he had an interview with Mr. Watts, and an experienced official of the Museum consulted Mr. Watts as to how his wishes could best be carried out. There was another characteristic, in addition to that mentioned by the noble Lord, belonging to Mr. Watts which he wished to mention. Besides his high artistic characteristics, he was a man of great modesty and diffidence, and he said he should like these pictures to be placed in some position where the public might see them and then form an opinion whether they were worthy of acceptance by the nation. There were two classes of his pictures—those of an ideal character, which were of great eminence and beauty, and could only be produced by the highest genius in Art; and those which were portraits, possessing not only great artistic merit, but great historic value to the country, as representing distinguished men of the present age. It would be of the utmost importance to the nation to possess these. Though he could not speak officially on behalf of the Trustees of the National Gallery, he could say that, however anxious they might have been to find a place for these pictures, they were absolutely precluded by the fact that they had no room. But at the South Kensington Museum he believed they could offer an excellent position for showing these pictures; and if Mr. Watts was satisfied with it, then it was to be hoped that he would carry out his munificent intention. A debt of deep gratitude would be due to him for his valuable gift and for the spirit in which it was made. The offer had not been absolutely made; but the noble Earl might rest assured that the authorities of South Kensington would do all in their power to further Mr. Watts's views and to secure these valuable treasures for the nation.

  RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876—Was presented by The Lord Balfour; read 1a. (No. 114.)
  WEST INDIAN INCUMBERED ESTATES BILL [H.L.] (No. 115.)
  A Bill to provide for the determination of the Acts respecting the sale and transfer of incumbered estates in the West Indies: And

  BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL [H.L.] (No. 116.)
  A Bill respecting the representation in the Parliament of Canada of Territories which for the time being form part of the Dominion of Canada but are not included in any province:
  Were presented by The Earl Granville; read 1a.

  CHURCH PATRONAGE BILL [H.L.]
  Select Committee on: The Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  L. Abp. Canterbury.

  L. Bp. Durham.

  L. Abp. York.

  L. Bp. Peterborough.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Harris.

  E. Selborne.

  L. Leigh.

  E. Iddesleigh.

  L. Aberdare.

  V. Cranbrook.

  L. Monk Bretton.

  L. Bp. London.

  The Committee to meet on Tuesday next, and to appoint their own Chairman.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.