Lords Sitting of 10 May 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment* (78); Metropolitan Police Stations (87).
Royal Assent—Cape Race Lighthouse [49 Vict. c. 13]; Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) [49 Vict. c. 14]; Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland) [49 Vict. c. 15]; Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) [49 Vict. c. 16]; Poor Relief (Ireland) [49 Vict. c. 17].

SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE—GREECE—BLOCKADE OF THE GREEK COAST.

  MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY): My Lords, I desire to lay upon your Lordships' Table a Circular Despatch recapitulating the action of Her Majesty's Government with regard to Greece, which I have addressed to Her Majesty's Representatives abroad, and copies of the two Collective Notes to the Greek Government, and the replies to those Notes, as well as to the notice of blockade which was presented to the Greek Government on Saturday. The first of these Collective Notes was presented on April 26. It demanded that the Greek Army should be placed on a peace footing with the least possible

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  delay, and that assurances should be given to the Representatives of the Powers in the course of a week from the date of the presentation of the Note that orders had been given accordingly. In reply to that Note the Greek Prime Minister sent an answer which will also be laid before your Lordships' House, in which he refers to some communication which had taken place between himself and the French Minister at Athens. That communication, however, your Lordships will see, when you have it in your hands, did not offer any guarantee for that immediate disarmament which we could offer Turkey, and induce Turkey to disarm in her turn. During the week that followed no further communication was received from M. Delyannis. On Monday evening the delay proposed by the Powers expired. It was, however, the desire of the Powers to show all possible consideration towards the Greek nation, and Wednesday being the King's fête day, their final answer to M. Delyannis's reply was not declared till Thursday morning, saying that the reply was wholly unsatisfactory, unless supplemented by further declarations. The communication from M. Delyannis was to the effect that he had no further explanations to offer. On Friday morning the Representatives of Germany, Austria, Italy, and Great Britain left Athens, leaving their Legations in charge of the Secretaries. The Russian Minister could not be withdrawn, as he was not at Athens at the time. On Saturday the notice of the blockade was presented, and a blockade as against Greek ships of all kinds is at this moment in existence along the East Coast of Greece and the Gulf of Corinth. That is a bare record of facts; but before I sit down I will ask the indulgence of the House while I make one or two further remarks as to the sufficiency of M. Delyannis's reply to the communication of the Great Powers. Your Lordships will be able to form your own judgment; but that judgment will be materially assisted by the speeches and Circulars of the Greek Prime Minister since he made those specific declarations. Only yesterday he made a speech announcing that he and his Government would never sign a decree of disarmament—a speech which absolutely justifies the contention of Her Majesty's Government and of the other
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  Powers, that while he had announced his intention not to attack Turkey, he had offered no guarantee that the menacing attitude of the Greek Army and the consequent strain both on that country and on Turkey might not be indefinitely prolonged. Moreover, the Greek and the Turkish Armies would have been left face to face with the constant probability of provocation and conflict. That state of things would have been the very danger to the peace of Europe which it has been the endeavour of the Powers by their action to avoid. In the next place, I have to point out that the interests of Great Britain in this matter are various and important. In the first place, there is the great interest which is always a paramount interest in the policy of this country—the maintenance of peace. In the next place, we have to remember the vast importance of upholding the decision of Europe—that is, of the Great Powers of Europe—in cases in which that decision can be usefully enforced; and, thirdly, we have had the interests of Greece and of Turkey to consider. The interests of Greece are sufficiently obvious. No sane friend of Greece could wish that she should embark in war with one of the great Military Powers of the world, even if she had a good cause to fight for. But, my Lords, that is not her present position. I cannot now take up your time with pointing out how unfortunate is the ground on which the Greek Government meditated this aggressive war. On some future occasion I may hope to have the opportunity of doing so. My Lords, the interest of Turkey in this matter is no less obvious. It is just five years since Turkey, on the strenuous intercession of the Powers, ceded the rich Province of Thessaly to Greece. It is hardly conceivable that the Turkish Government now should do otherwise than resist the proposal for another such cession. But while it is almost bound to resist this aggression the strain upon it is no less severe. The Turkish Government has an Army of over 300,000 men in its European Dominions, largely drawn from the Reserves; and the taking of the Reserves sufficiently indicates to your Lordships how great is the strain to which the agriculture of that country is subjected. I put aside the money required to maintain so vast an Army; but I do not put aside the injury to the

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  peaceful inhabitants of the Turkish Empire—the men of which are torn from sowing and ploughing, and from those agricultural operations on which their subsistence depends. Wide districts have, therefore, the prospect of famine staring them in the face. Her Majesty's Advisers, therefore, have strong grounds to proceed upon in using pressure at this juncture. My Lords, this is probably not the moment to make a long statement, and I will only say one more word. I have alluded to the importance of upholding what is popularly called the European Concert in matters of this kind. On this occasion, the European Concert has been very happily maintained. It is quite true that separate action has been taken by France; but I cannot doubt that that action has been taken with the same desire for a peaceful settlement of this question which is entertained by all the other Powers. As regards the other Powers, Austria, Italy, Germany, and Russia maintain a close and harmonious concert with us. That fact is of great importance; and in view of it I cannot doubt but that, coupled with the independent but parallel action of France, the exertions of the Powers will be crowned with success.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the noble Earl would naturally not expect me to pass any judgment upon proceedings as to which we are now only imperfectly informed; but I should not like to allow the noble Earl's interesting statement to pass without saying on my own behalf that, as far as I am able to judge, the policy which this country is pursuing is not that of one Party or of one Government, but of all Parties in the State. I believe there never was a Power risking so much with so little prospect of advantage and so slender a ground in point of right as is Greece at the present moment; and I feel sure that if any criticism can be passed on the diplomatic proceedings of the last few months, it is rather that they have tended to delay too long, than that they have unreasonably pressed that disarmament for which the peasantry in both countries are just now longing so ardently. The position of the Turkish Empire is one of cruel embarrassment. It is an embarrassment brought on by no fault of her own. On the contrary, if Turkey had had a free hand in the matter, it is probable that the menacing attitude of Greece would long ago have
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  ceased; and, therefore, I am sure we must all heartily join in wishing that the noble Earl and the Powers conjoined may succeed in bringing about before long the dismissal of those formidable armaments which constitute so serious a threat to the well-being of the Provinces concerned.
  Greece, No. 1. (1886)—Collective notes to the Hellenic Government, and of the replies thereto:
  Greece (No. 2). 1886—Circular despatch to Her Majesty's Representatives abroad respecting the affairs of Greece:
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

SPAIN—SIGNATURES OF THE COMMERCIAL CONVENTION.—OBSERVATIONS.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY): My Lords, I have much satisfaction in informing you that the negotiations conducted by Her Majesty's Government since their accession to Office with the Spanish Government through Sir Clare Ford, Her Majesty's Minister at Madrid, have resulted in the signature of a Convention, April 26, which Her Majesty's Government trust will place the commercial relations between Great Britain and Spain on a greatly improved footing. The main provisions of the Instrument are as follows:—Spain grants to British produce and manufactures through all her Dominions complete most favoured nation treatment in all that relates to trade and navigation. Her Majesty's Government, on their part, in addition to the continuance of most favoured nation treatment to Spain, engage to apply to Parliament for the necessary authority to provide that the limit of the lower half of the alcoholic scale of Wine Duties shall extend up to but not exceed 30 degrees of proof spirit. The Spanish Government grants specifically to British trade the benefits of all the stipulations contained in the Treaty of 1882 with France and the Treaty of 1883 with Germany. The tariff provisions of these Treaties will benefit many of the most important British industries. The Convention will remain in force until the year 1892 certain, and is capable of indefinite prolongation. The text of the Convention will be presented in a very few days. The sanction of the Spanish

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Cortes, as well as of our own Parliament, is required in order to bring the Convention into effect; but it is hoped that no difficulty will be encountered in obtaining an assent which is so manifestly to the benefit of both countries, and which will doubtless strengthen the cordial relations which now so happily exist between the two Crowns and peoples. I cannot conclude without bearing witness to the ability which has been shown by Sir Clare Ford in the conduct of these negotiations; and I may add that his task has been considerably lightened by the goodwill of Senor Moret, the Spanish Minister of State, who, while upholding the commercial interests of his own country, has, as far as possible, met the wishes of Her Majesty's Government with fairness and consideration.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES OF THIS HOUSE.—RESOLUTION.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE), in rising to move—
"That the Earl of Morley be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session; that the Earl of Morley do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole House unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House; that the Earl of Morley do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House,"
said, that the post of Chairman of Committees in its present conditions had only been held by three Peers, and that the Earl of Redesdale had succeeded the Earl of Shaftesbury, no opposition being offered to his appointment owing, probably, to the fact that he had for a considerable period performed the duties of Chairman in the absence of the Earl of Shaftesbury. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had allowed him to communicate with him on the subject; but although they had agreed that this was not a Party question, they could not agree upon the Peer who combined, in the greatest degree, probable fitness for the Office and general acceptability by the House. It appeared to him (Earl Granville) that the Earl of Morley would meet these two conditions; and he had been encouraged in this by the favourable opinions held, not only by Peers on the Ministerial side of the House, but by some Peers on the Opposition
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side. Their Lordships were aware how far the promise of the Earl of Morley's great distinction at Oxford had been fulfilled in that House during the 21 years he had had a seat. Their Lordships might have remarked the way in which he took part in the debates of the House; the authority with which he conducted the business of the Public Department which he represented, and the faculty he had of getting hold of the favourable attention of the House whenever he addressed it. Many of their Lordships were better acquainted than he was with the part which the Earl of Morley had taken in the Private Business of the House during the 18 years he had been a Member of Standing Committees of the House. Good service of a most useful character in that way brought very little credit to the person who did it, as he was very little known to the public, but gave a fair promise of success in the Office for which he was now nominated. In great Departments of State he (Earl Granville) was better acquainted than many of their Lordships, and he was sure he would be confirmed by his present and late Colleagues that the Earl of Morley had obtained an especially high character in various Departments of the State for industry. His ability, his judgment, his tact, and his celerity, combined with accuracy, was a thing in conducting business not altogether to be despised at the present day. The Earl of Morley was 43 years old, which was some eight years beyond the physical, but not much, some of them hoped, beyond the intellectual prime of a man's life. He had never been connected with any of the great Companies which came so often before their Lordships' House, and, in fact, he had never been connected with any Companies at all. He was perfectly well aware, though he regretted to say it, that he did not at this moment possess the Party influence in that House which he might have possessed last year; and he was also aware that late events had very much diminished any claim that the Earl of Morley might have had upon him when exercising that Party influence; but he (Earl Granville) could assure their Lordships that last year just as much as now he would have been anxious that this question should not be treated as a Party question. He was glad to see so large an attendance of Peers, because he believed that they

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would vote according to their own personal views as to what Peer was the most likely to perform the Business of the House in a manner satisfactory to their Lordships, and likely to maintain the high reputation they enjoyed with the public as to the conduct of their Private Business.
Moved, "That the Earl of Morley be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session."—(The Earl Granville.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in moving, as an Amendment—
"To leave out the name of the Earl of Morley and to insert that of the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos,"
said, that in moving this Amendment he thought he would best perform his duty if he did not attempt to controvert any part of the eulogy passed upon the Earl of Morley by the noble Earl opposite. He had a high opinion of the Earl of Morley, and he hoped that nothing he should do would be held inconsistent with that opinion. This was to be looked upon as a friendly conflict; and if, in the end, they did not succeed in obtaining the verdict of the House, they should with the greatest heartiness support the Chairman whom the House should select. The noble Earl opposite had alluded to the fact that the Earl of Morley had never been connected with Public Companies; but if the fact of having at one period of his life been connected with a great Company like the London and North-Western Railway Company was to strike a man as permanently incapable of taking an impartial part in the proceedings of their Lordships' House, he admitted that he was out of court at once. He would not believe that. On the contrary, he thought a connection with the very difficult circumstances which constituted the railway business of this country was a preparation and a qualification for taking a judicial part in the discharge of the Private Business of this House, and was not to be held as a disqualification. On what principle were the Judges appointed in this country? Their principle had always been that the best advocates made the best Judges, and that the knowledge they acquired in the performance of their duties as advocates was an invaluable qualification for the performance of their duties on the Judicial
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Bench. He himself had been a Railway Director; and he was bound to say that he was very much struck with the extent to which the experience obtained inside a Railway Company's offices enabled one to consider, and consider with knowledge of details, all the conflicting business which our railway legislation brought before Parliamentary Committees; and he should be sorry—not merely because it might disqualify himself, but on public grounds—if their Lordships did not recognize that the fact that a man had taken part in these great industrial enterprizes was a qualification for a Chairman of Committees in that House, the decisions of which so largely affected enterprizes of this character. The qualifications of the Duke of Buckingham were, however, not confined to his services in connection with any Railway Company. He had held subordinate Office on more than one occasion. Twenty years ago he was President of the Council, and shortly after that he was appointed Secretary of State for the Colonies, and both these were Offices in which a large acquaintance was acquired with the commercial and industrial business of this country. After that he was for five years Governor of the Province of Madras; and any of their Lordships acquainted with Indian Business must know how largely the duties of any Indian Ruler were concerned with works of public improvement, which constituted a considerable portion of the Private Business brought before the Chairman of Committees of that House. The Duke of Buckingham had, in addition, exercised—and he believed with great general satisfaction—the duties of Chairman of Quarter Sessions in his own county. The great qualification that was wanted in a Chairman of Committees was that he should have been accustomed to preside and rule, so as to be able to deal with a class of persons who were very able, but not very easily brought under control. For this a man of strong, and he might say of stern, character was required. Parliamentary agents were probably the most difficult people to have one's way with that could possibly be found. They would give way to persons of authority and firmness and resolution, and who knew their business; but with a person who did not sufficiently know his business, who had not the authority attaching

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to high employment, and whose amiability of character was in a preponderating degree a portion of his temperament, the Parliamentary agents would have their way, and by him they would not be properly governed. In appointing to this post, they should be considerate, not only for the fact that they wanted a man who had experience and resolution of character, but a man who was known by the public to have qualities which fitted him for the post, because his decisions would often be exposed to criticism and comment; and it was of great importance that sufficient authority should be attached to the decisions which he gave, and that he should be a person of that age and experience and past service which imposed his judgment and his opinion upon others. While paying all respect to the candidate of the noble Earl opposite, it appeared to him that the Duke of Buckingham would be the fittest person to succeed the great Chairman of Committees, whose loss they all deplored.
Amendment moved, to leave out ("Earl of Morley,") and insert ("Duke of Buckingham and Chandos.")—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he should certainly be prepared to loyally support the Chairman of Committees, whoever he might be; but he thought some of the noble Marquess's arguments were not quite conclusive. The noble Marquess was surprised at the assertion that non-connection with Companies coming before the House was an advantage in their Chairman of Committees. But, ceteris paribus, he certainly did not think it an advantage that the Chairman should be entirely independent of Companies. No one would for a moment believe that a man of high character, such as the Duke of Buckingham, would be too favourable to the London and North-Western Railway Company because of his connection with it—that connection would rather have the reverse effect; but still several of the best men of business in the House considered that their present or recent connection with railways was an absolute disqualification. The noble Marquess had referred to the fact that the Duke of Buckingham was Chairman of Quarter Sessions, but so was the Earl of Morley. The noble Marquess also detailed to the
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House the high Offices that the Duke of Buckingham had held, and the great experience he had had in India. These were arguments which would have been more applicable in favour of including the noble Duke in the noble Marquess's late Cabinet than in support of a proposal to put him into an entirely new line of business, which, owing to his being occupied in another way, the noble Duke had entirely neglected in that House.
On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Motion? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 103; Not-Contents 122: Majority 19.
Resolved in the negative.
Then it was moved to resolve,
"That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session:
"That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole House unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House:
"That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House."
Agreed to; and resolved accordingly.

REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND.
Ordered, That there be laid before this House a nominal return, in tabular form, of the Lords Temporal at present elected to serve in Parliament for Ireland, arranged according to date of election, with the number of years of service, and showing the naval, military, or civil rank in public service (if any) of each Peer, and also the naval or military commands or civil public offices he may have held.—(The Earl of Belmore.)
NAVY—DISCIPLINE, &c.—IRREGULARITIES IN BARRACKS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETON,in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether his attention has been called to the evidence taken at the inquest held upon the death of an officer in the Royal Marine Barracks at Chatham; and whether any and what steps have been taken to prevent the irregularities disclosed by the evidence? said, he thought that their Lordships would remember the case in question, which had happened a short time ago, in which a

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  young officer had committed suicide in the Marine Barracks at Chatham. An inquest had been held on the body, and it had transpired at the inquest that a young woman of improper character had been present in the officer's quarters at the time. The Queen's Regulations were very strict on this subject, Commanding Officers being charged to maintain order and prevent the admission of disorderly characters into barracks. The instance in question was, unfortunately, not a solitary one, a case having been brought to notice at Aldershot some time ago; and, on inquiry, he found that such occurrences were not infrequent. It was said that there was great difficulty in stopping the practice. The example was a very bad one for the soldiers; and he could not help thinking that there were ways and means of putting a stop to these objectionable practices.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON)said, that he was not surprised that the noble Viscount had called attention to the unhappy circumstances which had been made public in the course of the inquest held at Chatham the other day. He could assure him that he entirely sympathized with the opinions he had expressed with regard to the importance of putting a stop to such practices as he had alluded to. The existence, however, of these practices was not the fault of the Board of Admiralty, a definite and distinct Order having been issued on the subject, dated the 4th of June, 1869, to the effect that Commanding Officers should strictly prohibit the admission of improper characters at any time and under any circumstances. As soon as the attention of the Board of Admiralty was called to the case full inquiry was ordered to be made into the whole circumstances; but it was found that unfortunately the order had fallen into desuetude, and the present Commanding Officer at Chatham, who had only been there for a year, was quite unaware of its existence. Since the occurrence at Chatham the attention of all Commanding Officers had been directed to the Order, and they had been instructed to enforce it with the greatest strictness. The matter was still under the consideration of the Admiralty, with a view of seeing if anything further could be done to prevent such scandals in future.

METROPOLITAN POLICE STATIONS BILL.—(No. 87.)
(The Lord Thurlow.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (Lord THURLOW),in moving that the Bill be read a second time, explained that it was to enable a sum of £200,000 to be raised upon the security of the rates of the Metropolis for the purpose of erecting new central police offices, new police stations where required, and also for enabling the authorities to improve the existing stations.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Thurlow.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

NAVY—THE ESTIMATES, 1886–7.

  RESOLUTION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in moving—
  "That the Navy Estimates for the present year he laid on the Table of this House,"
  complained of the manner in which his Motion had been treated by the Government when he brought it forward a short time ago, and contended that inasmuch as naval discussions frequently arose in this House, it was essential that the Estimates should be laid on the Table.
  Moved, "That the Navy Estimates for this year be laid on the Table of this House."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON)said, it had not been the practice hitherto to lay these Estimates before their Lordships, and he thought it was very undesirable that either the Army or the Navy Estimates should be so introduced. At the same time, he should be most happy at all times to answer any Question which related to the Navy which the noble Viscount or any other Member of their Lordships' House might address to him.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he did not agree that the present state of things was perfectly satisfactory. The Navy Estimates gave a picture of policy, and one on which they could pass an opinion; and it appeared to him that

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  the fact of the First Lord of the Admiralty having a seat in that House necessarily meant that he should defend himself if he was attacked there. Two years ago he made some observations on the subject of the Navy. The noble Earl then at the head of the Admiralty (the Earl of Northbrook) thought those observations were unfounded, and took him to task for introducing the subject in that House. The discussion of the question could only be adequately carried on by their Lordships when they had the Estimates before them, and it was most inconvenient that their Lordships should have to run to the Library for the information they required for the purpose. On the occasion to which he referred, moreover, it was the noble Earl (the Earl of Northbrook) himself who brought the subject forward, and gave them a long dissertation on ships and torpedoes. It was not a question of encroachment on the rights of the other House; and he would suggest that it would be consistent with precedent if, on the Motion of any noble Lord, a message might be sent to the House of Commons asking them that the Estimates might be presented to their Lordships. That course, he thought, could not cause any jealousy as to privilege.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)said, he thought the suggestion of the noble Marquess would go rather a long way, because it would apply equally to other Estimates besides those of the Navy. There was the Education Department, and the Vice President was in the other House. Would they have the Education Estimate presented in that House because the Lord President sat there? Then there was the Board of Works. It would hardly be contended that the Estimates of that Department should be laid before their Lordships. It could not be made dependent on the accident that the Representative of a Department was in that House. It must be a general practice or not at all.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHwithdrew the Motion on the understanding that the noble Marquess would consent to consider the subject.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONdid not like it to go forth to the public that his noble Friend the Lord President (Earl Spencer) was subordinate
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  to any official in the Education Department.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONpromised to communicate with the Leader of the House (Earl Granville), and to consider the suggestion of the noble Marquess.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he did not wish that it should be always done; but that it should be competent for any Member of that House to move for these Estimates.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.