Lords Sitting of 7 May 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension * (89); Municipal Corporations (Scheme Confirmation) * (90); Highways Acts Amendment* (91).
Second Reading—Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order* (71).

ROYAL NAVAL VOLUNTEER CORPS.

  RESOLUTION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he is prepared to supply gun-boats for the use of the different brigades of the Royal Naval Volunteer Corps, and to move for any further correspondence respecting the above corps from naval officers or other officials who have been instructed to inquire into, or to report upon, the subject? said, that the Naval Volunteer movement had been spreading largely of late, and that it had already gained great popularity. A brigade had recently been formed on the Clyde, and it was intended to raise similar corps at Yarmouth and on the Tyne. He hoped the Admiralty would do their utmost to render this Service as popular and as efficient as the Rifle Volunteers had long been. At present, a member of the corps was not adjudged efficient unless he could prove his competency at gun, rifle, pistol, and cutlass drills. Now, it was almost impossible for a sailor to become efficient at gun drill on shore. To handle a gun well on board ship a man must first acquire his sea legs, and he could only do that at sea. He hoped, therefore, that a gun-boat would be placed at the disposal of

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  each corps for a period of four or five months annually. There existed 10 or 12 which were more or less obsolete, but which would serve admirably the purpose which he had in mind. A frequent complaint made by Naval Volunteers was that an efficient man was removed from the list of efficients if he could not be present at the official inspection. That was a very hard rule, and he held that men certified as unavoidably absent by their Commanding Officer should be allowed to remain among the efficients. Volunteers who had obtained commissions after passing the severe examination now prescribed by the Admiralty Regulations were entitled to aspire to higher ranks than were at present accessible to them. The last suggestion he had to make was that officers should be permitted to wear gold instead of silver lace. The latter tarnished very quickly at sea, but gold was not affected by salt water.
  Moved, "That there he laid before this House any further correspondence respecting the Royal Naval Volunteer Corps from naval officers or other officials who have been instructed to inquire into or to report upon the subject."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The MARQUESS of RIPON)could assure the noble Viscount that he naturally took a great interest in the Royal Naval Volunteer Force, and that he was anxious to do everything in his power to give it reasonable and legitimate encouragement. The noble Viscount might have a little confidence in him upon this point, because he was connected with the Military Volunteer Force when it was first started. He regretted that he could not produce the Papers which the noble Viscount wished to have. The Report of Sir Robert Molyneux had been received at the Admiralty, where it was still the subject of discussion. That being the case, it would not be in accordance with the usual practice or convenient to lay it on the Table of the House. Besides, it was more or less confidential. Another Report connected with this subject which the noble Viscount desired to have was a Report which was made to the War Office, and he could not undertake to produce it without the concurrence of the Secretary of State for War. With reference to the noble Viscount's suggestions, he might say that of late years it had been
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  the practice of the Admiralty to place a gunboat at the disposal of the Corps of Volunteers, and it was the intention of the present Board to continue the practice. The Avon had been set apart for the London District, and the Tay had been commissioned as a tender to the Hotspur, with the object of making her available for corps at Bristol and Liverpool. As to the corps on the Clyde, it had been formed only a short time, and was not yet in a condition to embark on a gunboat for sea practice. Hereafter, the same course would be pursued in the case of that corps as in the case of the others. He was obliged to the noble Viscount for his suggestions, and would carefully consider them. Most of them related to points which were referred to in the Reports of Admiral Hamilton and Sir Robert Molyneux, and which would be taken into consideration by the Admiralty.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked the noble Marquess to take into consideration the position and pay of the instructors of these corps, with a view to their improvement.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

NAVY—EXPLOSION ON BOARD H.M.S. "COLLINGWOOD."

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether an official Report has been received of the circumstances that attended the bursting of a gun on board H.M.S. Collingwood; and, if no Report has reached the Admiralty, by what process the First Lord intends that an inquiry shall be conducted? pointed out that the bursting of a gun of that kind was a matter of very great importance, because there were only eight or ten such guns on board a vessel; and it was a very different matter as compared with the time when there were a much larger number of guns of a lesser calibre. It was not the first time that accidents of this serious character had occurred. The opinions as to the cause were exceedingly diverse, and it was very necessary that a full investigation and inquiry should take place.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON): I am not at all surprised that a Question

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  has been put to me on this subject, and I quite agree with the noble Viscount in thinking that the accident was a very serious one indeed, and deserves, as it will most assuredly receive so far as I am concerned, the most careful consideration of the Government. There ought certainly to be a full and ample investigation into all the circumstances which attended it. This occurrence took place last Tuesday, the gun bursting with a charge of 221¼lb. of powder, being about three-fourths of the proper charge. As the House is aware, the gun burst about 8 feet from the muzzle. That, no doubt, was a very serious matter indeed, for the Admiralty had, at the time of this accident, 11 of these particular 43-ton guns, and this accident, of course, throws great doubt on the security of the other 10 guns on board the Collingwood and two other ships, the Colossus and the Conqueror. A full Report on the accident was received at the Admiralty yesterday from Captain Fisher, who was in command of the Excellent; but I did not wait until this Report had been received to take action in the matter. I immediately placed myself in communication with the Ordnance Department of the War Office as to what steps should be taken with regard to the remaining 10 43-ton guns. I conferred with Colonel Maitland, Superintendent of the Royal Gun Factories, Captain Noble, the manager of the Elswick Company, who happened to be in town, and with the Director of Naval Ordnance; and the result of our discussion was that these three officers were of opinion that it was desirable—they did not go so far as to say it was necessary—they said it was desirable to strengthen these 10 remaining guns by hooping them near the muzzle. I communicated the result of this conversation to my Colleagues on the Board of Admiralty, and yesterday we wrote to the War Office to request that they would proceed as rapidly as they could to strengthen these 10 guns. I fear that this will be a matter requiring some time; but Colonel Maitland is of opinion that the work can be done in a month, and that it will not be necessary to interfere with the gun carriages. Even if it is an under-estimate, and it takes two or three months to carry it out, it will still be very much less time than many have been led to suppose.
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  All that will be necessary will be to send the guns to Woolwich Factory—not all at the same time, but two or three at a time. We must all be agreed that this question requires a searching inquiry; and I understand it is the intention of the War Department to call on the Ordnance Select Committee, with certain associate members, men of great distinction, to report upon this accident. I have not been able to enter into communication with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman)on this question, as he has been absent from London; but he will return to-day or to-morrow, and I shall place myself in communication with him. I will suggest to him that inquiry shall not end with the Report of the Ordnance Committee, but that a further and subsequent inquiry shall take place into the whole of the circumstances connected with this unfortunate accident. I quite agree with the noble Viscount that this is a very serious matter indeed, and I can assure him that it will not be my fault if it is not thoroughly examined into, and if steps are not taken to prevent, so far as possible, the recurrence of such accidents. It must, however, be remembered that steel is a very uncertain material, and accidents of this sort must, unhappily, be expected from time to time.
  THE EARL OF RAVENSWORTHobserved, that the supply of ordnance was one of the most important questions of the day. Ships were delayed in their construction not only for months, but for years, because the question of the guns which the ship was to carry had not been settled. Unless the constructor of a ship knew what the size and power of the guns were to be which she was to carry it was perfectly impossible for him to design a ship properly. With regard to the question of the 43-ton guns, he wished to know whether he was correct in the idea that the very important Ordnance Committee, which had sat for at least a year, and which had reported last July or August, had recommended the 43-ton gun, but had joined that recommendation with another distinct recommendation that the full charge should not be used? If that was the case, that recommendation was surely very negative praise of that ordnance, and looked very much as if there was a suspicion concerning it in the minds of those experts who had examined into the ques-

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  tion. Now that slow burning powder was used the pressure upon the gun was very great where the hooping ceased, and this caused the danger. He had only a short time before been speaking to one who was a thorough judge both of ships and guns—Lord Charles Beresford—who had said that it was better to lose three ships than burst one gun, because if men distrusted the weapon with which they had to work it inevitably had a demoralizing effect upon them. That showed the immense importance of the question; and it was one also which affected the whole question of our home defences. Considerable progress had been made lately by the engineers upon some of our defences; but until they knew what the gun was to be they were altogether in the dark. He earnestly hoped that the work of strengthening the guns would be rapidly proceeded with, and also that this question, as affecting the manufacture of heavy ordnance, would be thoroughly sifted to the very bottom. He also trusted that the Government would carefully consider the possibility of making the Admiralty itself responsible for the supply of guns to the Navy.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that with respect to the large and important question alluded to by the noble Earl in the latter part of his remarks he fully recognized its importance, and both before and since the accident it had been occupyiug his attention, and would continue to do so. With respect to what had fallen from the noble Earl with regard to the recommendation of the Committee which had reported last year, the noble Earl was very nearly right, but not quite. This question did not touch all the 43-ton guns or those now being manufactured, which were made stronger towards the muzzle; and there were also several other 43-ton guns which were of stronger make. The question affected only 11 guns; and with respect to these 11 guns the Committee had reported that no alteration was required, but recommended that the full charge of 295lb. of cocoa powder should not be exceeded. He quite admitted that this direction that the full charge should not be exceeded might seem to express some doubt as to the gun, unless they bore in mind that in spite of this the Committee had reported that the gun should not be altered.

GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND.

  OBSERVATION. QUESTION.
  LORD ASHBOURNEremarked, that the Government had placed on the Table of the other House an interesting Return of the addresses of various Bodies in Ireland in reply to the invitation of the Prime Minister for the expression of opinion regarding the government of Ireland. He thought that it would be convenient if this Return were also circulated in their Lordships' House; and he would ask the Lord President whether he would lay it on the Table?
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER)said, that he would be perfectly willing to do so.

  INCUMBENTS OF BENEFICES LOANS EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to extend the time for the repayment of loans granted by the Governors of the Bounty of Queen Anne for the Augmentation of the Maintenance of the Poor Clergy to incumbents of Benefices—Was presented by The Duke of Buckingham and Chandos; read 1a. (No. 89.)

  MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (SCHEME CONFIRMATION) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm a scheme made by a Committee of the Lords of Her Majesty's Privy Council under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, relating to Higham Ferrers—Was presented by The Lord President; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 90.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.