Lords Sitting of 24 June 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Report—Committee—Third Reading—Peterhead Harbour of Refuge * (166), and passed.
Select Committee—Report—Hyde Park Corner (New Streets).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL—Committee—Report—Third Reading—Local Government (No. 4) * (171), and passed.

CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT—REDUNDANT COLLECTORS.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether the whole of the redundant collectors of Customs were provided for; and whether the promotion of the collectors generally would now go on in the regular course?
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (Lord THURLOW), in reply, said, that the matter, involving conflicting claims of long standing, was a highly technical one, and had been very fully gone into both by the Customs Department and the Treasury with the view of endeavouring to satisfy all those who were affected by it. It had been found impossible to lay down any general rule, and it was therefore necessary to deal with each individual case upon its own merits; but he hoped that in a short time provisions would be made which would be satisfactory to all parties concerned.

CALSHOT CASTLE.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTONasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether, as reported, it was proposed to mutilate or destroy Calshot Castle; and, if so, whether the evidence upon which the destruction of so ancient a monument had been decided upon could be laid before this House previous to carrying out so unnecessary an act?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST)said, he could give the noble Viscount the assurance that no alteration whatever in regard to Calshot Castle was in contemplation.

PRISONS (SCOTLAND)—STIRLING PRISON.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIEasked the Secretary for Scotland, Whether it was the intention of the Prison Commissioners for Scotland to close the prison at Stirling on the 30th instant; and, if so, whether this step could be delayed until the opinion of the Local Authorities had been expressed on the subject?
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Earl of DALHOUSIE)said, the Local Authorities had, perhaps, some reason to complain in this case. Representations had been made to the Government on the subject; but he was not in a position to say anything further than that the prison would not be closed before the end of next month.
LORD BALFOURmaintained that in respect of the policy of the Act of 1877 the closing of this prison was a wholly new departure. It was the case of a prison being closed which was situated in a town where certain Courts were held. Stirling was the headquarters of

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a Circuit, and it might be necessary to have a prison in Stirling. On no occasion had a prison been closed in a town where Circuit Courts were held. He wished to ask the noble Earl whether he was sure that the course he was taking in this matter was legal? He, for his part, held that it was illegal. The only section in the Act which provided for the closing of the prison was the 14th section, and it stated that after a prison had been closed, and after the £120 for each prisoner had been paid to the Government in respect of contributions it might make to the prison, the surplus should be handed over to the public authorities. The prison should be put up to auction, and the price obtained handed over to the county authorities. The noble Earl and the Secretary of State for War had arranged to hand over the prison to the War Office for the use of the nation, thereby depriving the county of Stirling of about £6,000. The value of the prison was about £12,000; and, in addition to the confiscation of this sum of £6,000, the burden of the local ratepayer would be increased, because the locality would have to provide two or three constables in order to make up for the abstraction of the constables engaged in conveying the prisoners backwards and forwards to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Besides, this journeying on the part of the prisoners was an unfair addition to the punishment of the prisoners. This new departure of the Government was a high-handed and unfair proceeding, and he hoped the noble Earl would say that he would not close the prison until at least the end of the present year. He thought the action also of the Prison Commissioners was authoritative and most unjust, and would result in great injury to Stirling, Clackmannan, and Perthshire.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he was afraid that he could not assent to the suggestion of the noble Lord. The doubts which the noble Lord had expressed as to the closing of the prison had already been represented to him, and the Scottish Department were engaged in taking legal opinion on the matter. He assured the noble Lord that the Scottish Department would not act in the matter without clear grounds for doing so. Stirling Prison was on the list of prisons intended to be closed, as it was originally made out shortly after
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the Act was passed. Therefore, he denied that the Government were following any new policy in regard to this question.

METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS— HYDE PARK CORNER.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  Moved, "That the House do adjourn during pleasure."—(The Earl Spencer.)
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he rose to call attention to the improvements at Hyde Park Corner. He complained that the beauty of Hyde Park Corner had been marred by the hasty manner in which a late First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) had carried out the work. He directed the attention of their Lordships especially to the practical inconvenience which arose from leaving Piccadilly so narrow opposite the entrance to Hamilton Place. If an additional 18 feet of width had been left at that spot the inconvenient blocking of the traffic would have been avoided. The traffic in that neighbourhood was increasing year by year, and he thought it was highly desirable that something should be done to obviate the continual blocks which were occurring.

PARLIAMENT—THE DISSOLUTION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD DENMANsaid, he had to complain that Parliament, six months after the General Election, should be dissolved. If a different step had been taken by the present Government they might have avoided a Winter Session. It had been said that this Dissolution was inevitable; but his late noble and learned Relative used to say—"If a thing be declared impossible it will happen in a fortnight." What was declared "inevitable" was quite avoidable. A Dissolution would not only interfere with the harvest, but also with the London season, and with everything that had to be discussed. The Women's Suffrage Bill stood in "another place" for June 30, and the Bill in this House for July 8. The Butter Substitutes (Regulation of Sale) Bill was also delayed, and it was meant to alleviate a competition by which farmers were almost ruined. He (Lord Denman) believed that if Her Majesty had been advised to allow Parliament to be adjourned

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  instead of "dissolved" the people would have been deeply grateful. The noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) had in 1884 induced above 30 Members of their Lordships' House to promise to stay from the 15th of July till the time needed for the finishing of all Business; but the 10th of July cut all Business short. He (Lord Denman) remarked that letters had been written by Peers naming certain candidates; but in the 3rd Volume of Hatsell's Precedents, page 63, there was the case of the Bishop of Carlisle brought before the House of Commons, and the right rev. Prelate was sharply censured as a Peer for expressing his wish in a letter as to one candidate. He named this, as it might embarass an Election Judge very much to decide what weight should be given to a mere Resolution of one House of Parliament. He had been very anxious to avoid seeming to dictate to the good sense of the electors relied upon by Her Majesty, and had last year written to a noble Lord, a near neighbour of his, not to be chairman of a meeting in Haddington.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Who?
  LORD DENMANsaid, the Marquess of Tweeddale advertised to hear a speech by a right hon. Gentleman, a candidate for a division of Edinburgh. That was supposed by the noble Marquess not to be irregular; but in his speech the right hon. Gentleman attacked Lord Elcho, then a candidate for Haddingtonshire, without being called to Order. He (Lord Denman) hoped that this interference would be very rare at any future Election.
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAMsaid, he joined in the protest of the noble Lord. He observed that some remarks had been made as to the interference by Peers in a Parliamentary Election constituting a breach of the Privileges of the other House; but it seemed to have been overlooked that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had himself set an example, by taking a prominent part in the election of the Prime Minister for Mid Lothian in 1880. He wished to call their Lordships' attention to the unusual state of affairs. The Marquess of Hartington in his address called this a "premature Dissolution." It was a premature Dissolution; and he ventured to say that no precedent could be adduced for dissolving a Parliament within six months of a General
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  Election under circumstances like the present. The people of the country were appealed to by the Prime Minister, and yet he had placed no tangible and accurate statement of policy before them. He considered the Dissolution might be regarded in the light of a personal plébiscite. It was a dangerous, he would almost say an unconstitutional, precedent. There was no necessity for it. The Government might have tendered their resignation, and Her Majesty might have had an opportunity of calling other Advisers to her councils. There was a large section represented by Lord Hartington and others of the Liberal Party who might have been expected to take Office. At all events, the various Parties in the State had not been exhausted as regarded the formation of a Government.
  Motion agreed to: House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed by The LORD CHANCELLOR.

  LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with several of amendments agreed to, and several disagreed to, together with a reason for such disagreement: The said reason considered (on Motion): Moved not to insist on the amendments to which the Commons have disagreed; on question, resolved in the affirmative.

  SEA FISHING BOATS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons with the amendments to which the Lords have disagreed not insisted on, and the amendments made by the Lords to the amendments made by the Commons agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow a quarter past Ten o'clock.