Lords Sitting of 8 June 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—International and Colonial Copyright* (144).
Committee—Patents Amendment* (133).
Committee—Report—Patriotic Fund* (131).
Committee—Report—Third Reading—Sea Fishing Boats (Scotland) (140), and passed.
Third Rending—Contagious Diseases (Animals) (153), and passed.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—Second Redding—Gas and Water* (136); Water* (137).
Third Reading—Elementary Education Confirmation (Birmingham)* (96); Elementary Education Confirmation (London)* (97), and passed.

NAVY—UNARMOUR-ENDED SHIPS.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he wished to make a personal explanation. The noble Marquess the First Lord of the Admiralty (the Marquess of Ripon) the other night seemed to be under misapprehension that the letter to which his Question had referred was written by the late Chief Constructor, Mr. Barnaby, and consequently the answer of the noble Marquees had not exactly applied to the Question. The letter to which he referred was that of Mr. White, the present Chief Constructor, who, in his letter, clearly intended that water should be introduced into unarmour-ended ships of the Admiral, class as a means not only of correcting the trim, but also as a protection in time of action; and he further gave them to understand that the loss of speed from the consequent immersion of the vessel to a depth of 15 or 18 inches would be very trifling. For himself, he thought that naval officers could not be expected to take their ships into action on untried systems; for they all knew that scientific inventions, although they might be exceedingly clever and ingenious, often failed when brought to the test of a practical trial because of the existence of conditions which were not and could not be foreseen by the inventor. When naval officers were let ashore sometimes for two or three years without being employed in the command of vessels, and when invention went on at the rate at which it progressed at present, it was impossible to expect the officers to keep abreast of those new in-

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  ventions, or when the hour of trial came that they should be required to make use of those inventions on the spur of the moment.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON)said, it was a somewhat inconvenient practice that a Question which was not on the Paper should be asked and then afterwards supplemented by a lengthened statement. He would not follow the noble Viscount in this respect. In answer to the Question he had to say that he was afraid there was no hope of the noble Viscount and himself coming to a conclusion with respect to Mr. White's letter, because he had copied out the very extracts from that letter which the noble Viscount had used in order to prove exactly the opposite of that which the noble Viscount argued he had established. He still held to the statement which he made the other day. He admitted, however, that he had made a mistake in supposing that the letter referred to was from Mr. Barnaby. He had been led into that mistake because he had had a long conversation with Mr. White on the subject, and that gentleman had stated to him those views with respect to the purposes and intentions of the Admiralty as to those vessels which he had mentioned to their Lordships the other evening.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE— THE MINISTERIAL CRISIS.
  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): It may be convenient that I should state to your Lordships that in consequence of what took place in the other House last night that House has adjourned until Thursday. I think it will be convenient that we should meet again on Thursday, and then I hope to be able to state to the House how long we propose to adjourn for the holidays.
  SEA FISHING BOATS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 140.)
  (The Earl of Dalhousie.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Earl of DALHOUSIE)said he hoped
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  the House would agree to the Motion standing in his name—namely, to suspend the Standing Orders, so as to pass the Bill through its remaining stages. He was aware that that was a very unusual course; but the circumstances were very unusual. He was not referring to what took place in the other House early in the morning, but he was referring entirely to the Crofters Bill, which had just passed their Lordships' House. Their Lordships would remember that that Bill contained a provision for the Fishery Board to advance money to fishermen in the crofting parishes on the security of their boats. The Government had been in constant communication with the Fishery Board in Edinburgh, with reference to the matter, and it appeared on examination that, as the law at present stood, there would be very great difficulty in the way of carrying out that provision as their Lordships intended it should be carried out. It therefore became necessary to pass a measure to facilitate the operation of registering and mortgaging fishing boats. The effect, if this Bill were not passed, would be to render inoperative one of the most valuable provisions of the Crofters Bill. There was also to be considered the uncertainty of Public Business; and he was, therefore, extremely anxious that the Standing Orders should be suspended, and that the Bill should pass through its remaining stages without delay.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill."—(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
  LORD BALFOURasked, whether it was not the fact that this Bill applied to other fishing boats than those used by the crofting population; whether this Bill gave the same powers as to mortgaging to the owners of these fishing boats as were given by the Act of Parliament to owners of ships of a larger size in return for compliance with certain requirements of the Board of Trade as to security and safety; whether it was not the fact that in this Bill no such corresponding obligations were proposed; and whether it was desirable to extend the privileges conferred on owners of these vessels to owners of fishing boats without getting a corresponding return?
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEwas understood to say that the Bill did apply

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  to boats other than those belonging to crofters. The Board of Trade had put no obstacle in the way of the Bill, and the same conditions as to manning and security would be applied to these boats as were applied in the case of other vessels.
  Motion agreed to: House in Committee; Bill reported without Amendment: Then Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL.
  (The Lord Denman.)

  (NO. 10.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD DENMANsaid, there had been no Notice of opposition to it; but the question was one which would be much better argued in Committee than on the second reading. The only objection to it had been that the subject required discussion. As their Lordships were all anxious to consider other things, he would content himself with simply moving the second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Denman.)
  THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGHsaid, that this subject was of great importance, and it was desirable to thoroughly consider it before arriving at a decision. He doubted very much whether, in present circumstances, the Bill could receive all the consideration to which it was entitled. It would, in his opinion, be an unfortunate circumstance if any vote should be taken on a matter which he believed to be one of great value. He would ask the noble Lord to let the Bill stand over, in order to see what the opposition to the measure was before they went into Committee on it.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)said, that whatever might be their opinion as to the measure, everyone would admit that it was a subject of great importance. It was not, therefore, desirable that it should be treated in a light or off-hand manner. He hoped the noble Lord would withdraw the Bill on that occasion.
  LORD DENMANsaid that, looking at the state of Public Business, he would postpone the second reading until the 1st [subsequently altered to 8th] of July.
  Second Reading put off to Thursday the 8th of July next.

  INTERNATIONAL AND COLONIAL COPYRIGHT BILL.—(No. 144.)
  (The Lord Chancellor.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of the Bill was to enable this country to come into the Union proposed at a conference held at Berne some four or five years ago. Under that Union, so far as International Copyright was concerned, copyright in one country would give copyright in all the countries who had joined the Union. The proposal was that where a term of copyright existed in two or more countries the International copyright should not endure in any country longer than the shortest time for which it existed, either according to the law of the country where the publication took place, or of that where the question was raised. If a work was published in this country under the Imperial Copyright Acts copyright was given to the whole of Her Majesty's Dominions. If, on the other hand, a work was published in any one of the Colonies which formed part of those Dominions that work enjoyed copyright only according to the law of that Colony. It had been felt that this was not a satisfactory state of the law; and, therefore, it was proposed that a work published in any one of the Colonies should, under the Imperial Copyright Acts, obtain copyright protection throughout Her Majesty's Dominions, just as, in the same way, copyright obtained by publication in the United Kingdom applied to all Her Majesty's Dominions. He thought it desirable that this legislation should be carried through this Session. With regard to the views of the Colonies, so far as the answers received at present showed, they were all favourable to the proposal. Not one unfavourable answer had been received; but some of the answers of the Colonies had not yet arrived. Before the Bill passed into Committee, and if those answers had not arrived, he should ask their Lordships to accept a clause excepting from the operation of the Bill the Colonies which did not wish to be included.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  PATENTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  (The Lord Chancellor.)

  (NO. 133.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Title.
  On Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, the following Amendment made:—In Title, after ("accompanied") insert ("and as respects exhibitions").
  Moved, After Clause 2, to insert as new clause—
  (Protection of patents and designs exhibited at international exhibitions.)
  "Whereas by section thirty-nine of the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks Act, 1883, as respects patents, and by section fifty-seven of the same Act as respects designs, provision is made that the exhibition of an invention or design at an industrial or international exhibition, certified as such by the Board of Trade, shall not prejudice the rights of the inventor or proprietor thereof, subject to the conditions therein mentioned, one of which is that the exhibitor must, before exhibiting the invention, design, or article, or publishing a description of the design, give the Controller the prescribed notice of his intention to do so.
  "And whereas it is expedient to provide for the extension of the said sections to industrial and international exhibitions held out of the United Kingdom, be it therefore enacted as follows:
  "It shall be lawful for Her Majesty, by Order in Council, from time to time to declare that sections thirty-nine and fifty-seven of the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks Act, 1883, or either of those sections shall apply to any exhibition mentioned in the Order in like manner as if it were an industrial or international exhibition certified by the Board of Trade, and to provide that the exhibitor shall be relieved from the conditions, specified in the said sections, of giving notice to the Controller of his intention to exhibit, and shall be so relieved either absolutely or upon such terms and conditions as to Her Majesty in Council may seem fit."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to; Clause inserted accordingly.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next.

  TRAMWAYS ORDER IN COUNCIL (IRELAND) BILL.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREasked the Lord President of the Council, If it is
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  the case, as stated by the opponents of the Tramways Order in Council (Ireland) Bill, that—
  "An application was made by the promoters to the Irish Government to introduce a Confirming Act this Session, and the matter having been submitted to the Law Officers, they advised the Government that, having regard to the provisions of the General Tramways Acts, the Order in Council in this matter must be deemed to have lapsed, and that it was not now competent to introduce a Confirming Bill;"
  and, whether the solicitor for the opponents to the Bill was informed by the Attorney General for Ireland and the Assistant Under Secretary (Sir William B. Kaye), so recently as 25th May, that the Government had determined not to introduce another Bill for confirming the said Order in Council?
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER): It is not usual to make public the opinion of Law Officers given to the Government as matter of advice. I may state, however, that the action of the Government in declining to act under the particular powers and obligations created by Section 14 of the Tramways Act, 1860, and introduce a second Bill there under, was owing to advice received from the Law Officers. The Law Officers did not advise that it was not competent for the Government under their general powers to introduce such a Bill.
  LORD HALSBURYsaid, that when the matter came on for discussion he thought it could be shown that the action which had been taken by the Government was open to question.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that he had not offered a decided opinion; but admitted that the matter was open to very grave doubt. He felt that it was a scheme which it was desirable should be carried out, and that as it had been made a subject of local inquiry it would not be wise to reject the measure on the second reading.

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)— MURDER OF PATRICK TANGNEY, NEAR KILLARNEY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWN, in rising to ask, Whether the police have succeeded in arresting the murderers of Patrick Tangney; if not, whether they entertain any reasonable hope of being

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  able to do so; and, whether the Law Officers consider that, in the event of their capture, there is any probability, in the present state of the county of Kerry, of their being prosecuted to conviction before a common jury of that county? The noble Earl commented on the circumstances attending this horrible atrocity, and said the Government seemed to think sufficient had been done by sending police patrols and an Inspector to report upon the matter. As a matter of fact, there was a police patrol within a short distance from the spot where the murder was committed, and it did not appear to have interfered in the slightest degree with the commission of the crime. The fact was that these patrols were carefully watched by the spies of the brigands who committed these murders, and he was told by persons who had the misfortune to live in those parts of Ireland that the police made these patrols on cars. Consequently the sound of the wheels was heard for miles around. The noble Earl yesterday suggested that the state of Kerry had only been unsatisfactory since August last; but, as a matter of fact, the state of certain districts of Kerry had been for years past a scandal to Christendom. He was told by a noble Lord four years ago that the neighbourhood of Castleisland was the worst in all Ireland. Trial before a common jury was a mere farce, and he believed such was the terrorism exercised by the National League that neither the wife nor the daughter of this poor man would dare to give evidence against the perpetrators of the crime. Even if they did so a common jury would not dare to convict. After all, a Government existed in Ireland and was maintained by the taxpayers for the purpose of protecting life and property; but in many parts of Ireland Her Majesty's Government actually neglected both. They took steps to improve the condition of the labouring poor. Was it too much to ask them to protect their lives? To his mind, the piteous cry of these poor women calling upon the Virgin for assistance, and other scenes which had occurred of the same kind, were quite as horrible as those murders in the Phœnix Park, which alone could arouse the Gladstone Government of that day to a sense of their duty.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER): In answer to the noble Earl's Question, I have to say that no arrest has yet been made for the murder of Patrick Tangney. I do not think it advisable in the interests of justice to state the information in the possession of the Government. The last paragraph of the Question of the noble Earl is entirely a contingent Question, and I do not think I am called upon to express an opinion upon it.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.