Lords Sitting of 7 June 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading-County Courts Consolidation* (151); Copyhold Enfranchisement* (152).
Second Reading—Post Office Sites* (130).
Report—Contagious Diseases (Animals) (149–153).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—First Reading—Police and Improvement (Scotland) (Leith)* (150).
Report—Elementary Education Confirmation (Birmingham)* (96); Elementary Education Confirmation (London)* (97).

CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL— APPOINTMENT OF COMMISSIONERS.

  OBSERVATTONS.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, I observe in this morning's journals a statement with regard to representations which have been made to Her Majesty's Government on the subject of the appointment of the members of the Crofters Commission. Those who are interested in the management of landed property
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  in Scotland have, I think, behaved towards the Government in this matter with very great forbearance, because undoubtedly very arbitary powers—powers which might involve the complete forfeiture of all arrears due at the present moment—are dependent upon the personal character and responsibility of the gentlemen who are appointed Commissioners. I am bound to say that I have the greatest confidence in the perfect frankness and good faith of my noble Friend who occupies the Office of Secretary for Scotland. I have also the same confidence in the present Lord Advocate for Scotland; but, having that confidence, I think we have a right to ask, when a report so public as this appears in the morning papers in respect to remonstrances said to have been made by a certain class of Members of the House of Commons in regard to these appointments, whether there is any foundation for it? I therefore beg to put that Question to my noble Friend.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Earl of DALHOUSIE): I have no difficulty whatever in answering the Question put to me by the noble Duke, because, as it happens, I was at the House of Commons on Thursday night shortly after the interview between Dr. Macdonald and the Lord Advocate took place, and I heard from the Lord Advocate at the time an account of what passed. The substance of the statement attributed to Dr. Macdonald, in the letter to which the noble Duke refers as having been made by him to the Lord Advocate on that occasion, although not quite accurate, is fairly correct, I believe, so far as regards his objection to the gentlemen whose appointment has been apparently rumoured in Ross-shire. The alleged reply of the Lord Advocate to Dr. Macdonald is not quite accurate either. The Lord Advocate simply answered that he would communicate to me what Dr. Macdonald had stated, and shortly afterwards, on my arrival at the House of Commons the same evening, he did so. I may perhaps be allowed to add that no understanding exists between the Government and the Crofter Members as to who will or will not be appointed to Commissionerships under the Crofters Bill. No promise has been given, directly or indirectly, on the subject, and no announcement will be made to-day in regard to it. I must decline most distinctly to make any reply to the

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  insinuation contained in the last paragraph of this letter in The Times, because my doing so, either negatively or affirmatively, would imply that certain appointments have been proposed, or at least contemplated, a matter in regard to which, as I have stated, it is not intended to make any announcement today.

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)— MURDER OF PATRICK TANGNEY NEAR KILLARNEY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether he could give the House any information as to the recent murder of Patrick Tangney near Killarney, and whether the Government considered that they had sufficient powers to protect life and property and to bring to justice the instigators and perpetrators of this and similar crimes in Ireland?
  THE LORD PRESIDENT (Earl SPENCER), in reply, said, he was afraid that the general purport of the noble Lord's Question was true. From the report he had received he found that the house of Patrick Tangney, about five miles from Killarney, was entered by armed and disguised men about 12 o'clock on the night of June 3. Tangney was shot in the leg, from the effects of which he had since died. The motive of the outrage was supposed to be owing to the fact that the man was connected with the estate of Mr. Going, and that he was supposed to have taken some steps to allow men outside the estate to get bog. This was supposed to be the motive of the outrage, but of course it was impossible to be certain in regard to it. Her Majesty's Government regretted to say that the state of Kerry in certain parts was not at all satisfactory. Ever since last August the condition of that county had been much in the same condition as it was now, and there had indeed been little or no change since June or July of last year. A large number of additional police had been drafted into the county in order to cope with this particular method of outrage, which was "moonlighting." The only mode in which the Irish Government could deal with disturbance of this kind was to increase the strength of the patrol. Last year the Inspector General of Con-
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  stabulary visited the district to consult with the Local Authorities, and a considerable number of police were sent. He visited the county again in. February, and in certain parts of the county there was then a distinct improvement. A number of extra police were in the county now, and the Government were doing their utmost to keep down these outrages by increasing the patrols. The Inspector General had again been ordered to the county and left for the district last night in order to hold another consultation with the Authorities with the object of putting down these outrages. With regard to some of these outrages there was reason to believe that they had been got up for the purpose of showing that the tenants were under intimidation, and in one case there was reason to believe that the sons of the farmer whose house was attacked took part in the outrage for the purpose of using it as a pretext for not paying his rent to his landlord.
  LORD ASHBOURNEasked if the noble Earl had any reason to doubt the information which the Government received that this was an agrarian murder, and that the sole offence was an honest attempt on the part of the deceased to perform his ordinary civil duties?
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNasked whether, considering the present state of the County Kerry, the Law Officers of the Crown considered, in the very unlikely event of the capture of these murderers, there was any reasonable hope of their being prosecuted and convicted before a common jury? The statement that some of these outrages were prearranged was uncalled for and monstrous, and it was a strange assertion for a responsible Minister of the Crown to make. It was also a strange statement for the noble Earl to say that the condition of Kerry had been unsatisfactory since he left Office last year.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)said, he did not understand his noble Friend (the Lord President of the Council) to say anything so absurd as that this murder had been pre-arranged. What his noble Friend said was that there was reason to believe that some of these moonlight outrages had been pre-arranged.
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, that, in all probability, the Judge before whom the murderers would be taken—if any of

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  them were apprehended—would change the venue from Kerry to Cork, in which county, in such a case as this, there would be no fear of a miscarriage of justice.

SOUTH-EASTERN STATES OF EUROPE— GREECE AND TURKEY—RAISING OF THE BLOCKADE OF THE GRECIAN PORTS.—OBSERVATIONS.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY): I have no doubt your Lordships will hear with pleasure the announcement I am enabled to make. It is that we have received a telegram from the Duke of Edinburgh stating that the blockade of the Greek ports has been raised. The Fleets are now returning to Suda Bay.
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL.—(No. 149.)
(The lord President.)

REPORT.
Amendments reported (according to order).
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER)said, he had two Amendments to propose which he regretted were not in print, and which he had undertaken to bring up when the Bill was in Committee. The first was intended to prevent the confusion which had arisen in certain counties with regard to Orders for the removal of cattle in different Petty Sessional districts; but it would not curtail the powers of the Local Committee, which were so important for dealing with outbreaks of cattle disease. The second Amendment gave to Local Authorities the power of charging upon owners of ships wrecked on the coast the cost of burying cattle that were cast up on the shore. Several cases had occurred in which expense was thrown upon a locality, and in which there was no doubt as to the ship of whose cargo the animals had formed a part.
Further Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 153.)

NAVY—EFFECT OF SHOTS ON IRONCLADS—EXPERIMENTS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ELPHINSTONE, in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty,
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  Whether, in the forthcoming trials of the effect of shots against the armour-clad Resistance, he would test the effect of concussion caused by a shot striking a pilot or conning tower? said, that several years ago he made a similar request, and he was afterwards told—"We have tried your experiment; we put a dog, a cat, and a goat into a turret while we were firing, and we found that the concussion did not have the slightest effect upon them." Now, it so happened that no animals could have been selected that were less susceptible to the effects of concussion, and he, therefore, did not consider the test applied to these animals was any experiment at all. He could have told the Admiralty beforehand that the effect of concussion upon these animals in a turret open to the air would be simply nil Again, he made the request that one of these towers might be fired at. To show the importance of applying such a test he described these turrets. In some cases access was gained by a staircase from below, and in others from the upper deck. Inside there were a large number of speaking tubes communicating with every department of the ship, and these were secured by bolts and nuts. The inside of the turret was practically the eyes and brains of the ship, and in time of emergency the heads of the departments would be in the turret. In one he had counted 80 screw bolts, and the effect of a shot striking a tower would be that 40 of these would be started. He believed the effect of concussion upon the officers inside would be to kill them at once. Thus a ship would be paralyzed at once. A year or two ago certain tests were applied on board the Inflexible. A shot was fired so that the explosion passed along the upper deck and by the conning tower. Inside there had been placed lighted candles, glasses of water, and paper diaphragms. The lights were blown out, the water was upset, and the diaphragms were cracked. The experiment which he suggested had never been tried in this or in any other country; but the general opinion in the Navy was that if a shot struck the conning tower of a vessel the whole thing would be knocked overboard.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON), in reply, said, he did not think it would be

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  possible to make the experiment suggested by the noble Lord on board the Resistance. There was no conning tower on board that vessel, and a very considerable time would necessarily elapse before one could be erected. The only experiment that would be effective would be to fire a shot at a real conning tower constructed like other towers. The experiments on board the Resistance, which would be of very great importance, were now arranged, and under these circumstances he did not think it would be desirable to delay them for several months in order to erect a conning tower. He would, however, take the matter into consideration, and would consult with his Colleagues and the professional advisers at the Admiralty with a view to see whether such experiments as the noble Lord had suggested could be made.

COLONIZATION AND EMIGRATION.
  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, that, in consequence of the absence of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, he would postpone the Question which stood in his name on the Paper as to whether any satisfactory scheme of emigration or of colonization, State-directed or otherwise, had been proposed to the Colonial Office, or whether the Colonial Office, with the concurrence of Colonial Authorities, had formulated any such scheme for the mutual advantage of Home and Colonial interests. He hoped, however, that the Government would be brought to see the urgent necessity of some action on the part of the State in the direction of colonization and emigration. The Blue Book which had just been issued was extremely disappointing.
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—VOLUNTEER INSPECTIONS IN HYDE PARK.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he wished to draw the attention of the Under Secretary of State for War to the inadequate space granted for the inspection of Volunteers in Hyde Park. He went to the Park on Saturday to see his old regiment, the London Scottish, inspected, and he must say that he was somewhat scandalized at the
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  way in which the inspection had to be carried on. Three regiments were being inspected and three others were drilling, and the ground set aside for their accommodation was that narrow slip between Knightsbridge Barracks and Rotten Row, which at the most was only 120 yards wide—no wider than Ascot racecourse. Seeing that when certain gentlemen wanted to get up a demonstration against their Lordships' House they had the use of the best portion of the Park, he desired to know whether better arrangements could be made for such a large and useful body of men as the Volunteers? Surely, when they had a body of men 200,000 strong who gave their time to the Public Service, thorough provision ought to be made for their efficient and satisfactory inspection. He hoped that the War Office would give attention to the matter.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Lord SANDHURST), in reply, said, that in consequence of the short Notice which he had received of the noble Earl's Question, he had hardly been able to inquire into this matter as he would like to have done. He understood that the arrangements for the inspection of Volunteer corps were entirely in the hands of the General Officers commanding the districts, and these arrangements were made, as far as possible, to suit the convenience of the corps. It was a lamentable thing that some confusion should have occurred such as that to which the noble Earl had alluded, and, seeing the great interest that their Lordships' House and the country generally took in the Volunteer Force, it was a great pity that these inspections could not be carried on with greater convenience. He would make further inquiries into the matter.

  COUNTY COURTS CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate the County Courts Acts—Was presented by The Lord Chancellor; read 1a. (No. 151.)

  COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Copyhold Acts, and for the enfranchisement of copyhold and customary lands—Was presented by The Lord Hobhouse; read 1a. (No. 152.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.