Lords Sitting of 26 February 1886

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILL—Committee—Freshwater Fisheries (Eels)* (15–23).
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

COLONIES—IMPERIAL AND COLONIAL DEFENCES.

  ADDRESS FOR RETURNS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in rising to move for—
  "Returns of the number of naval and military officers now employed in the service of the Colonies by the permission of the beard of Admiralty and of the War Office; of officers who have, in addition to the above, applied for permission so to serve; of assistance given to the Colonial Governments in ships, guns, or other military stores;"
  and to ask, whether Her Majesty's Government intend to propose to the Colonial Governments any scheme by which the Naval and Military Forces of this country and of the Colonies may be made interchangeable for the purposes of Imperial or Colonial defence, or by which, if deemed preferable, the services of officers and men may become available for the protection of the Colonies and their commerce without detriment to their prospects in the Imperial Navy and Army? pointed out that this Motion had been some considerable time before their Lordships and the public. Growing importance had been attached to the subject every year, and the desirableness of associating ourselves with the Colonies and they with us for the purposes not only of Colonial, but of mutual defence had been gradually recognized. Any scheme of this kind was calculated to be beneficial, not only to this country and the Colonies, but to the officers of both Services and the taxpayers as well. He had recently made inquiries as to the number of officers in both Services who were compulsorily retired, and who had expressed their willingness to serve in the Colonies. After a close investigation he had found that a very large number of military and naval officers had applied, in most in-
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  stances in vain, for employment in different branches of the Public Service. The majority of these officers were men who were still capable of doing good service to the country or to the Colonies, though they had been obliged to resign their appointments in consequence of the Rules of the Service. Out of 114 officers who had applied for some kind of work, the average age was 50; among those who had been compulsorily retired in the Army alone there were 280 officers of various ages, ranging from 41 to 60. When the country considered the amount of useful public work which could be got out of men in other professions between those ages, it must seem absurd that the taxpayers should be willing to pay these men, in the shape of pensions, for doing nothing—for living in compulsory idleness. At the present time it was almost impossible for officers of the rank of Major General, Colonel, Admiral, or Captain of the Navy, to obtain employment in the Civil Services; but there was a large field of employment open to them in the Colonies, and there they were very largely needed. The men were only willing to obtain employment; but when they applied at the different Offices for an engagement they were told that they could not be employed because it was against public feeling to employ men of their rank, even although they were competent to do the work required. In that connection, he would refer to the fact that Sir Cooper Key had been retired in the prime of life; that Admiral Sir John Hay was retired 10 years ago—and, since his retirement, had served his country in Parliament, when he was well able to serve it in another way — both men being in the full vigour of mind and body; that Sir R. Stopford conducted operations with great success at the age of 73; and that Sir W. Parker was employed in China after he had attained the age of 60. At a time when the House of Commons was carefully scrutinizing the Pension List, it was advisable, he thought, to point out that the Pension List of the officers on retired pay in the Army alone amounted to £1,300,000. Before the abolition of purchase that Pension List did not cost the country more than £60,000. While they were clearing the list in order to promote young officers they were removing able men, some of

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  whom were more fitted by experience to discharge the duties required than those who received promotion. He, therefore, asked the Government whether the time had not come when, considering the strong opinion expressed in many quarters out-of-doors, they might form some real and tangible scheme which the Colonists could accept, and which would be for the advantage of all? The opinions he had expressed were not the vague opinions of the public outside, but such men as Mr. Forster and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (the Earl of Rosebery) had expressed views to a similar effect. He did not think a more patriotic object could be urged on the attention of the country, or that there was one more deserving the attention of any Government which did not seek popularity, but which was desirous of strengthening the military and naval defences of the Empire.
  Address for—
  "Returns of the number of naval and military officers now employed in the service of the Colonies by the permission of the beard of Admiralty and of the War Office; of officers who have, in addition to the above, applied for permission so to serve; of assistance given to the Colonial Governments in ships, guns, or other military stores."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE): I entirely agree with the noble Viscount as to the great interest of the subject on which he has put Questions. The subject is one which applies to other Departments besides that of the Colonial Department; but I can give an answer to the Questions he has put. The Return of the number of naval and military officers now employed in the service of the Colonies by the permission of the beard of Admiralty can be given. The number of officers who have, in addition to the above, applied for permission so to serve cannot be given. No record is kept of the unsuccessful applications for particular vacancies. With regard to the assistance given to the Colonial Governments in ships, guns, or other military stores, the noble Viscount has specified no time. It would be useless to go into ancient history on this subject—e.g., as to what was left in New Zealand when the Imperial troops were finally withdrawn many years ago. The Parliamentary Return issued by the War Office last year (Army, Colonies, No. 69 of 1885) gives
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  a general statement showing the Army Expenditure under certain heads in the Colonies. With some limit of date the War Office and the Admiralty could supply a Return of the amount of ships, guns, and stores supplied to the largo responsible Colonies, distinguishing what were given and were paid for. They are accustomed to pay for what they want, and the large Colonial Governments would object to applications in formâ pauperis. The High Commissioner for Canada and the Agent General for Victoria have drawn the attention of the Secretary of State to some of the arrangements under which officers of the Army and Navy are lent to Colonial Governments. A Committee was accordingly appointed to consider the subject, in conference with the Agents General. The Report of the Committee has been received, and Her Majesty's Government hope shortly to communicate their view to the Governments interested in the question.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: I am glad this subject has been brought forward, and I am pleased to hear the answer given by the noble Earl (Earl Granville), for there is no subject of more importance to the general interests of the Empire. There has been a recent opportunity of seeing what the Colonies could do. They came forward in a most handsome and proper manner, and evinced not only an excellent spirit, but also produced a very good result in placing their forces at the disposal of the Crown. I cannot help thinking, therefore, that in the opinion of your Lordships every facility should be given for improvement in that direction; and depend upon it this is not only a very valuable object in sentiment, but it will also be of immense importance to us to know that the distant parts of our great Empire have reliable forces to enable them to take care of themselves. If we have large Possessions to defend, we must have large forces to undertake that defence, and the possession of such a Colonial Force is, besides, of great economical value. In order to facilitate that state of matters there is no doubt of the importance of the view urged by the noble Viscount (Viscount Sidmouth). It so happens that there is considerable difficulty in finding employment for compulsorily retired officers. What the Colonies want is officers. The Colonial

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  Forces provide a good field for their employment. The Colonies have an abundance of material for junior officers; but they want tried and experienced officers. We have a considerable number of retired officers here who are very efficient, but who according to the Rules of the Service, have been obliged to re tire. These officers, I think, should be encouraged to serve the State in the Colonies. It is said that officers so employed ought not to retain their retired pay. This is a mistake, I think, because they have earned it. You do not stop the retired pay of officers who go into civil occupations or professions, and I do not think it would be fair to stop it in cases where they go into the Colonial Service. This is a small matter, but still it is an important one; and I am sure the Government will feel the force of the observations of the noble Viscount. I think the more intimacy there is between all our Services, and the more the Colonies are supported and encouraged in that way, the better it will be for the interests of the Empire at large.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he should be quite content to accept the Return in its amended form.
  Return amended, and agreed to.

SALE OF POISONS—LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether, considering that a Bill upon the subject was read a second time in this House last Session and referred to a Select Committee, it is their intention to introduce this Session a Bill for regulating the sale of poisons? The noble Earl said, that a feeling of very considerable uneasiness had existed in the public mind for some time in consequence of the great laxity of the regulations prevailing with regard to the sale of poisons. This laxity gave not only great facilities for the committal of crime—murder and suicide—but also, in many cases, led to accidental death. His feeling in the matter had been considerably intensified of late by a case of a very remarkable nature now before the public. All he intended to say about that case was, that it disclosed the extraordinary facility which persons, who were absolutely unknown to the vendors, had for obtaining the most deadly poisons. His noble Friend (Lord Car-
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  lingford) introduced a Bill on this subject last Session, and after Petitions had been received from nearly every town in England praying their Lordships either to reject the measure or refer it to a Select Committee ho agreed to adopt the latter course. For some reason or other the Committee was not appointed, and the Bill was allowed to drop. He ventured to hope that the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council (Earl Spencer) would re-introduce either the Bill of last Session, or a similar Bill, which would contain provisions regulating the sale of poisons by apothecaries, general practitioners, and veterinary surgeons, as well as by chemists.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER)said, he must confess that he was relieved by the speech of the noble Earl of a difficulty in which he found himself placed when he took up the newspapers that morning and read that the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown) had last night introduced a Bill dealing with poisons, and that it had been read a first time. He felt as if he were to blame personally for not having, while sitting on the Front Ministerial Bench, heard the noble Earl's speech, nor the announcement that he introduced such a Bill. With regard to the Question of the noble Earl, he might say that the Government were now considering the subject; and in a very few days he hoped to be able to inform him whether they intended to introduce a Bill. He would undertake, if they did introduce the Bill, to give a convenient time for its consideration.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that the Bill which he ventured to present to their Lordships yesterday evening and which was read a first time had nothing to do with poisons. Quito the reverse; it was a Bill for the prevention of the sale for building purposes of the sites of City churches. No doubt he had been indistinctly heard in the Reporters' Gallery.

OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PAR- LIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.

  APPOINTMENT AND NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEmoved the appointment of the Select Com-

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  mittee on the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod; and that the Lords following be named of the Committee:—

  Ld. Chancellor.

  E. Camperdown.

  Ld. President.

  E. Granville.

  D. Richmond.

  E. Kimberley.

  D. Saint Albans.

  E. Redesdale.

  D. Bedford.

  E. Lathom.

  M. Salisbury.

  V. Hawarden.

  M. Bath.

  V. Hardinge.

  Ld. Steward.

  V. Eversley.

  E. Devon.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  E. Tankerville.

  L. Monson.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Ker.

  E. Harrowby.

  L. Aveland.

  E. Bradford.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he hoped that the Committee that would be appointed would pay some attention to the ventilation of the House. Before their Lordships entered the House this evening not only was the atmosphere bad, but it was foul and fetid. The system by which the House was ventilated was so extremely scientific that no one could understand it. The mode of ventilation was by pumping up cold air under their Lordships' feet, while their heads were swimming in an atmosphere of a very disagreeable character. That was a state of things which he did not think could be beneficial to anyone but their Lordships' sons; but, in his opinion, changes in the constitution of the House ought to be made gradually. He hoped, therefore, it would be part of the duty of the Committee to take some steps to improve the ventilation.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, he observed that he was proposed as one of the Members of the Committee. If he found that the subject came within the jurisdiction of the Committee, nothing would give him more satisfaction than to press on the attention of the Committee, or of any other authority, the question to which the noble Earl had called attention. It would be his lot to sit in that House for many hours of the day besides those during which their Lordships were present. He had had some experience of that atmosphere, for he had spent many hours and many days, year after year, at one end of the Chamber, and he never spent a day there without returning home with a headache which he had never felt when he had been
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  before any other tribunal. Therefore, the question of the ventilation of the House to which the noble Earl had called attention was deeply impressed upon his mind. So far as he had any say in the matter, attention would be paid to it.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.