Lords Sitting of 23 February 1886

NEW PEER.
Sir Edmund Beckett, Baronet, having been created Baron Grimthorpe of Grimthorpe in the East Riding of the county of York—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

NAVY—COAST DEFENCES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he will lay on the Table the reports of Admiral Hamilton on Coast Defences and on the Royal Naval Volunteer Artillery Corps; also reports from any other officer commissioned to inquire into either or both of the above matters? said, the question was a very important one, and he was anxious about it, and thought it most desirable to know what the action of the Admiralty was likely to be in this matter. Their Lordships were no doubt aware that, before the close of last Session, the Admiralty had taken steps to inquire into this matter;

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  and the late Administration had appointed Admiral Hamilton to inquire into the Coast Defences of the country, and to specially report upon the condition of, and the probable services likely to be rendered by, the Naval Volunteer Corps. Admiral Hamilton, however, shortly after had gone to China to assume the command of the Fleet there; but he (Viscount Sidmouth) believed that his Report was in the hands of the Government. He would, therefore, ask the noble Marquess to give the House some information with respect to it, as soon as he had made himself master of its contents. He would remind the House that the late Government, before leaving Office, announced their intention of granting what was greatly required—namely, a capitation grant to the members of the corps in the same manner as the grant was given to military Volunteers. He desired to know whether the Government were prepared to continue and to extend that practice? He should like to point out to their Lordships that the present condition of the Naval Volunteer Corps was not such, either in numbers or in position, as would be naturally expected from a great naval nation like Britain. He understood that the late First Lord of the Admiralty (the Earl of Northbrook) had had his attention called to the subject, and he believed that the noble Earl was favourable to the capitation grant which had been subsequently given. From that grant, however, there had been deducted a sum of money for raising an additional corps at Greenock, at the mouth of the Clyde. He could not understand how it was that out of a naval and fishing population around our coasts numbering, he thought, 150,000 men, a Volunteer Force of only 2,000 men had been enrolled for the defence of the coasts, while in the military Volunteer system there was a force of 200,000 men in a very high state of efficiency. He believed, if the truth were known, this was caused by the Admiralty. Some years ago Sir Thomas Brassey said that at least 10,000 to 15,000 men ought to be and would be readily enrolled among the Naval Volunteers. He was very enthusiastic on the subject at that time; but somehow or other after the right hon. Gentleman had got into the Admiralty his ardour cooled, eventually dying away altogether. He wished to
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  impress upon their Lordships that the gentlemen who were employed in this service at this moment spared neither time nor money to make themselves efficient to discharge those duties which were imposed upon them by Act of Parliament. Those duties were not light, involving as they did training, gun, rifle, and cutlass drill, rowing in boats, splicing, &c, and many gentlemen had done a great deal more than was required of them. He did not know why the Admiralty should wish to throw cold water on this naval corps; but he understood that there was a feeling that there would be some jealousy on the part of the military force. He did not for himself, however, believe that such a feeling existed. At the time the movement was originated, that feeling might have existed; but now, if military men were asked what they thought of the drill and the practice of the Naval Volunteer Corps, he thought they would find that their opinion was that those men and regiments were ready, should the occasion arise, to undertake a leading part in the defence of the country. It was, in his opinion, desirable to foster the naval spirit, and to place the defence of our coasts in the hands of those who were on the spot. All that the Admiralty appeared to have done before the establishment of the capitation grant was to supply a few boats, to give a gun or two, and to give permission to drill, at the same time allowing a ship or so to be used when a suitable vessel happened to be in the neighbourhood of the seaport town where the force existed; but the restrictions which they placed upon those who enrolled themselves and the requirements which they exacted were very severe indeed. He impressed on their Lordships how important it was for our naval interests that those forces should be encouraged, and that our coasts should be defended by trained men. He hoped the noble Marquess would be kind enough to lay the Reports he had referred to on the Table as soon as he possibly could.
  Moved, "That there be laid before this House Reports of Admiral Hamilton or of any other officer commissioned to inquire into Coast Defences and the Royal Naval Volunteer Artillery Corps."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Marquess of RIPON),in reply, said, he would not follow the

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  noble Viscount into the details which he had brought under the notice of their Lordships. The noble Viscount was, of course, aware that he (the Marquess of Ripon) had been but a very short time at the head of the Admiralty. He entirely admitted the importance of the subject to which attention had been called; but just on account of its importance and of certain complications connected with it, it required much attention and careful examination from the Board of Admiralty before they came to any final decision with respect to it. He was certain that their Lordships would not expect him to offer any opinion on the question before he had had an opportunity of discussing it with his Colleagues at the Board of Admiralty. His noble Friend the late First Lord of the Admiralty (the Earl of Northbrook) entrusted Admiral Hamilton with the duty of making a careful inquiry into the matters to which the Question of the noble Viscount related. Admiral Hamilton set to work to examine carefully into the subject, and he visited various ports with the object of reporting upon their defences. Not long after he had begun his inquiry Admiral Hamilton was appointed to a command in the China Seas, and had to leave this country. Before he did so, however, he sent into the Admiralty an interim Report, not by any means dealing exhaustively with the subject, but stating the results of his inquiry and the views which he had been led to form so far as he had had time and opportunity. The late Board of Admiralty appointed as his successor Sir Robert Molyneux, and he had been engaged in completing the investigation. Admiral Hamilton's Report was sent in to the Admiralty in the course of last autumn; but it was not complete, and the late Board thought it better to wait for the further Report of Sir Robert Molyneux. He believed that Report was ready; but it had not been printed, and had not yet been before the Board; and in those circumstances he would ask the noble Viscount not at present to press for these Reports. It would be for the public interest that the matter should not come before the public in an incomplete form. The late Board of Admiralty took certain steps in regard to the matter before they left Office, and the present Board had no intention to interfere with them; but they
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  were only of a partial nature, because Lord George Hamilton thought the Board should have the whole question before them before coming to any final decision. He agreed in that opinion, and he should reserve his own judgment until the Reports were complete and had been considered, and then he would lay them on the Table.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked, whether the Government intended to continue the capitation grant?
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON assented.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

THE METROPOLITAN POLICE FORCE— DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE OE 1879.

  QUESTIONS. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD,in rising to ask, Whether in the year 1879 a departmental committee was appointed by the then Secretary of State for the Home Department to inquire and report as to the constitution and condition of the Metropolitan Police Force; and, if such a report were made, whether there will be any objection to present the same to Parliament? said, that he believed the inquiry to which he referred was conducted by Sir Matthew White Ridley and Mr. Maule, an eminent Queen's counsel, and that their Report was presented to the Home Office. Whether they alluded to the efficiency or non-efficiency of the force he did not know; but, considering the events of the past fortnight, and the excitement existing in the public mind on the subject, it would be satisfactory and acceptable to Parliament and the public generally, when they had reason to believe that there was an exhaustive and very able Report of an inquiry by two gentlemen fully acquainted with the subject in tho archives of the Home Office, that it should be presented to Parliament, and he hoped that the Government would see their way to lay it on the Table.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONsaid, he wished to ask whether any and what communication had passed between the chief officers of police and the Home Office in former years, upon the subject of the danger of permitting such demonstrations as took place on Monday, the 8th of February, and on Sunday last, and of the difficulty of controlling

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  them? It would be a great satisfaction if his noble Friend who represented the Home Office found himself in a position to lay any such Paper upon the Table without injury to the Public Service.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, it was quite true that a Departmental Inquiry was made in 1879, and he remembered also that another Departmental Inquiry was made in 1868 by his Predecessor (Viscount Cranbrook) into the constitution of the police. Two of the Members of that Committee were Sir Henry Thring and Sir James Fergusson. They made an important Report, and he (Lord Abordare), having succeeded to the Office of Home Secretary, had great pleasure in adopting some of their recommendations. One of the principal recommendations was that London should be divided into four districts, with a Superintendent for each, one of whom was Colonel Pearson. Shortly after that Report Sir Richard Mayne resigned the office of Chief Commissioner, and it became his (Lord Aberdare's) duty to select a successor, and he selected Sir Edmund Henderson. That being the case, their Lordships might like to hear a few words from him with respect to the manner in which Sir Edmund Henderson had performed his duties. The career of Colonel Henderson had already been a distinguished one, and the circumstances which led to his introduction into the Public Service were rather remarkable. He had been employed as a young officer of Engineers in settling the boundaries between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Having performed that duty with considerable personal risk and severe suffering, he was subsequently employed by the Government in laying out the line between St. John's and Canada. The impression produced by his capacity shown in these tasks upon Earl Grey, the then Colonial Minister, was such that he appointed him to superintend the last of our penal Colonies in Western Australia; and he was there for 13 years, when he returned home. In 1863 a Royal Commission, consisting of some of the ablest men in the country, was appointed to inquire into secondary punishment. It was presided over by Earl Grey. While the Commission was sitting, Sir Joshua Jebb, who was at the head of the Convict Department, died suddenly; and then a step was taken which was, perhaps, unique in our administrative
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  history. The Members of the Royal Commission sent to Sir George Grey, who was then Home Secretary, a sort of round-robin, in which they mentioned to him the very great impression which Sir Edmund Henderson had produced upon them by the knowledge of the subject, and by the ability, sagacity, and energy he had shown, and by the success he had achieved in the difficult department he had so long managed, and they recommended the serious consideration of his claim to be appointed successor to Sir Joshua Jebb. The recommendation was recognized, and for six years afterwards Sir Edmund Henderson was at the head of the Convict Department. In 1869 he (Lord Abordare) had to choose a successor to Sir Richard Mayne, and he selected Sir Edmund Henderson, who for 17 years since had been at the head of the police. During that time he (Lord Aberdare) was in Office for upwards of four years as Home Secretary, and in that time very important changes were made, which he should have no difficulty in showing conduced to a speedy diminution of crime in London. These changes were made quietly and without any flourish of trumpets by Sir Edmund Henderson, and with the approval of the Home Office. He would mention one of the changes for the improvement of the efficiency of the police. At the time he had named the number of the detective police employed in the Metropolis was 17; but Colonel Henderson recommended a change, which had led to very important results and to great advantage to the public. To each of the departmental divisions of the police a force of detectives, to about the number of 20, was added. They were selected from the main body of the police, and if they proved efficient they were retained, but if inefficient they were returned to the ordinary police, and so a supply of efficient men was maintained. Now, he (Lord Aberdare) had heard with deep regret of the resignation of Sir Edmund Henderson; and while the Press, on the whole, had been very fair as to the conduct of that gentleman, he observed it had been said that the police had fallen off very much since the days of Sir Richard Mayne in 1868, and that the force was not now, as then, an object of pride and congratulation. Whether that was so or not he thought would be decided by a very few

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  figures, which he would give. The population of the Metropolitan district in the year Colonel Henderson entered upon his office was over 3,563,000. In 1884 the population was 5,147,000, showing an increase of 1,584,000, which by itself exceeded the population of any three other cities of the Empire. What had been the state of serious crime in those years? In 1869 the number of felonies committed and reported in the Metropolitan police district was 21,529. After the lapse of 15 years, and notwithstanding the increase of the population by 1,500,000, the number of serious crimes committed in London was fewer by 218, the number being 21,311. To attribute that result wholly to the increased vigilance of the police would be ridiculous, for they knew that a good many causes had contributed to bring it about. He would put the question of the efficiency of the police to another test—namely, the number of apprehensions of criminals. The number of apprehensions in 1869 with reference to these 21,500 felonies was 10,088. In 1884 the number of apprehensions on the smaller number of felonies was 12,995, being an increase of 2,967. The proportion of felonies to the population in 1869 was 6 042. In 1884 it was 4·140, or a decrease of about 30 per cent. Not only was this the case, but Sir Edmund Henderson had had the management of a larger population and a larger force. The annual addition from one year to another to the population of this larger Metropolis was about 70,000. The streets added every year were 50 miles in length, and the Police Force had increased from about 9,000 to very nearly 13,000. Judged by any test they pleased, the position of the force at this moment was better and sounder than it had been at any previous time. Whether with regard to the number or the quality of those who offered themselves for employment, the number of punishments for misconduct, or the number of those who retired from causes of dissatisfaction, in every one of these respects there had been a very considerable improvement in the status and condition of the police. In 1884 the number of voluntary resignations was only 167, being the smallest number ever known. During the last 17 years, moreover, there had been circumstances of great anxiety. In 1870
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  there was a great increase of wages all over the country, and the police naturally looked for a share of the increase. But there was some delay in the matter; for a Public Department could not increase the salaries of its employés on the occasion of every increase of wages in the country, for the simple reason that it was impossible to decrease them when wages fell. The consequence of the delay was misconduct, recklessly supported by persons of some position unconnected with the force. The mutiny was, however, suppressed, and a fresh arrangement of salaries was made. A careful inquiry was made at the time, and in consequence of the action then taken there had been no dissatisfaction since. There had also been in these 17 years many great public manifestations under circumstances of considerable anxiety; and, with the one recent exception, none of those great displays of material forces, which were intended, in many cases, to alarm the population, and especially what they termed the aristocratic population, had led to any serious disturbance. In all this time there had been no disturbance of the peace, except in cases so insignificant as not to be worthy of notice. He could fully enter into the feelings of those who objected to have the order of the streets disturbed by such immense crowds; but it was to be remembered that up to the other day no evil consequence had happened. He was not going to ask why, after so signal a success of 17 years, there had been so signal a failure in dealing with the late riotous outbreak. He quite admitted that if it could be shown that the personal safety of individuals or of property had been endangered by any want of vigilance on the part of the police some signal example ought to be made; but what he did ask their Lordships, and through them the public, was to remember that this officer, who was now retiring in circumstances most painful to himself, had, since the year 1850, filled public employments with remarkable success; that under his administration the conduct of the police had been such as to assist other causes in producing an extraordinary reduction of crime; and that, at the same time, increased vigilance and efficiency had been shown by a larger number of apprehensions and of punishments, which were a means of

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  preventing crime. He awaited with confidence the result of the inquiry, which was being conducted by men of high integrity and intelligence. Whatever that result might be, they must accept it as the final statement as to this most lamentable affair. Whatever it might be, whether it reflected severely or not upon the individual action of Sir Edmund Henderson on that occasion, he did not think it ought to make them insensible to a career of long public utility, which, up to this time, had secured the respect of his fellow-citizens and of the various emiment men who had presided over the Department.
  LORD THURLOW,replying for the Home Department, said: My Lords, I have to say, in reply to the Question of the noble Viscount (Viscount Enfield), that he is perfectly accurate in saying that in the year 1879 a Departmental Committee was appointed by the then Home Secretary (Sir R Assheton Cross) to inquire into and report as to the situation and condition of the Metropolitan Police Force. That Committee was, however, a purely Departmental Committee; and its Report, as is usual in such cases, partakes very largely of the nature of a confidential document. Under these circumstances, I am instructed to say that it would not be possible for the Home Office to lay the whole of that Report upon the Table of your Lordships' House. I am further instructed to say that, in the opinion of the Home Secretary, pending the extensive inquiry about to be made in the matter, the exact scope of which he will explain very shortly to Parliament, it would not be expedient or in the interests of the Public Service to lay this Report, at the present moment at all events, on your Lordships' Table. With regard to the remarks made by the noble Lord who has just sat down, and who was himself Home Secretary for some time, I trust he will not consider me wanting in respect if I am not able to follow, at the present moment, the current of his observations. But I will confine myself to assuring him that I feel perfectly confident that his observations will receive the very careful consideration of the Home Secretary.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow half past Ten o'clock.