§
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE moved—
1615
That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty for a Return, from 1830 to the present time, of all special protective and repressive criminal legislation applicable to Ireland (by whatever name called), with the dates and names of proposers: Also a Return (so far as may be practicable) of all crimes, specifying conspiracy, sedition, murder, offences against the person, agrarian offences, arson, intimidation, &c, committed 12 months next before, and next after, the passing of the Act.
§ LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he objected to the issue of the proposed Return, on the ground that it would be practically worthless in substance, wholly objectionable, and that it would involve the country in great expense, and give an infinity of trouble to the officials in the Irish Department.
§ LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he had never heard a more extraordinary objection raised than that of his noble and learned Friend. On the eve of legislative proposals of the utmost importance for Ireland, which must colour its whole future, it might be important that all such information bearing on the question should be furnished. The Prime Minister, in introducing his Home Rule Bill, had made it a part of the substantial ground upon which he justified that measure that so many Coercion Acts, as he nailed them, or as his (Lord Ash-bourne's) noble Friend (Lord Oranmore and Browne) and many people preferred to call repressive or protective measures, had been passed since the date mentioned in the Motion without avail. It might be interesting, therefore, that they should have, in an authoritative way, a list of these Acts, with their titles and the years when they were passed. He ridiculed the notion that the information should be withheld because it would cost some little trouble and expense to obtain it. Such considerations, in view of the importance of the issues which would shortly come before them, were out of place. The materials for the substance of the Return which his noble Friend asked for were already in the Irish Office, as the Lord President had stated that Mr. Forster had presented a Return going over a great many years, and a smart and intelligent clerk could, if the matter was thought desirable, soon put the details together, from the information which had already been collected, at very little trouble and expense. He was sure his noble Friend would agree to modify the terms of his Motion in any reasonable 1616 manner, so as to suit the convenience of the Government. Perhaps his noble Friend would not object to the Motion standing over till after Easter, in order to its being more fully considered, and possibly being put into a more practical and definite shape.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)said, that he wished to clear the Government from any possible imputation that they might wish to withhold the information. He was clearly of opinion that Parliament was entitled to any information it might desire on such a subject. He objected, however, to the Motion as it stood as being unintelligible, and to the requirement of this particular information. It was not possible to draw up a Return such as was described in the Motion of the noble Lord, and he must say it was not the duty of the Government to draw up a practicable form of Motion for him. But he would point out that, with regard to the chief part of it, the difficulty of obtaining this information was remarkably small, for any one of their Lordships who would go into the Library and ask the Librarian for files of the Statutes for the period named would at once obtain the dates of the Acts in question, with which all who were acquainted with the subject of Irish legislation were thoroughly familiar. He did not see that because his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government had referred to these facts, which were accessible to everybody, it was necessary to give them to the House. Indeed, he saw most of the information asked for by the noble Lord published in a newspaper only a few days ago. It was certainly one of the most extraordinary Motions he ever saw, to ask for a Return in that House of what the House itself had done. What struck him was, that the Return which was moved for by Mr. Forster was a very valuable Report. It gave, up to the year 1880, the information which was required, and probably it would only be necessary to continue that Return to the present time. He quite accepted the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Ashbourne), as he thought it would be far better for the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne) to confer with the Lord President of the Council, in order to see what information would be really wanted by the House.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that, after the discussion, he would postpone the subject until after Easter.
§ Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.