Lords Sitting of 15 April 1886

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Private Bills (Standing Order No. 128), nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Copyhold Enfranchisement* (76); Drowned Persons (Discovery and Interment)* (77); Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment (78).
Second Reading—Bankruptcy (Agricultural Labourers' Wages) (70).
Committee—Report—Cape Race Lighthouse* (60).
Report—Tree* (Ireland)* (72–79); Poor Relief (Ireland)* (74).
Third Reading—Lunacy Acts Amendment (64); Lunacy (Vacating of Scats)* (47–80); Burgh Police and Health (Scotland)* (69); Marriages (Hours of Solemnization)* (73); Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland)* (36), and passed.

PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER NO. 128).
Moved, That the following Lords be named of the Select Committee:—

L. Chancellor.

L. Houghton.

M. Salisbury.

L. Watson.

E. Morley.

L. Bramwell.

E. Northbrook.

L. Hillingdon.

E. Redesdale

L. Grimthorpe.

Agreed to (The Lord Houghton).

LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 64.) THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order).
  On Motion, "That the Bill do pass,"
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that objection had been taken, in a Petition presented from the Corporation of Newcastle, to the clause which empowered the building or creation of private asylums. In his opinion, the clause was not one which was likely to involve the Local Authorities in any any pecuniary obligation or loss. He
  1614
  thought that, on the whole, the power which was given would be found advantageous rather than the reverse, from a pecuniary point of view. He felt however, that there might be some reasonable grounds for the objoction taken, that whereas power was given to the Justices to determine whether such buildings should be erected, or whether they should take part in such erection, the administration of the funds in towns was vested in the Town Councils. He proposed to move an Amendment, to provide that where these asylums were to be erected for paying patients as well as non-paying patients, the powers of the Bill should not be exercised in municipal boroughs, except with the consent of the Town Council. There were some other Amendments to be proposed, which, however, were merely formal.
  Amendments made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

BANKRUPTCY (AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS' WAGES) BILL.
(The Earl of Harrowby.)
BANKRUPTCY (AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS' WAGES) BILL.

  (No. 70.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to remedy a defect in the Bankruptcy Act of 1883, by enabling agricultural labourers who received a portion of their wages yearly, to have, in the event of the bankruptcy of the master, a prior claim upon the estate to the extent of one-third of the sum due to them.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Harrowby.)
  LORD HOUGHTON (on behalf of the Government)said, he would accept the Bill.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

IRELAND—SPECIAL PROTECTIVE AND REPRESSIVE CRIMINAL LEGISLATION.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE moved—

  1615
  "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty for a Return, from 1830 to the present time, of all special protective and repressive criminal legislation applicable to Ireland (by whatever name called), with the dates and names of proposers: Also a Return (so far as may be practicable) of all crimes, specifying conspiracy, sedition, murder, offences against the person, agrarian offences, arson, intimidation, &c, committed 12 months next before, and next after, the passing of the Act."
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he objected to the issue of the proposed Return, on the ground that it would be practically worthless in substance, wholly objectionable, and that it would involve the country in great expense, and give an infinity of trouble to the officials in the Irish Department.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he had never heard a more extraordinary objection raised than that of his noble and learned Friend. On the eve of legislative proposals of the utmost importance for Ireland, which must colour its whole future, it might be important that all such information bearing on the question should be furnished. The Prime Minister, in introducing his Home Rule Bill, had made it a part of the substantial ground upon which he justified that measure that so many Coercion Acts, as he nailed them, or as his (Lord Ash-bourne's) noble Friend (Lord Oranmore and Browne) and many people preferred to call repressive or protective measures, had been passed since the date mentioned in the Motion without avail. It might be interesting, therefore, that they should have, in an authoritative way, a list of these Acts, with their titles and the years when they were passed. He ridiculed the notion that the information should be withheld because it would cost some little trouble and expense to obtain it. Such considerations, in view of the importance of the issues which would shortly come before them, were out of place. The materials for the substance of the Return which his noble Friend asked for were already in the Irish Office, as the Lord President had stated that Mr. Forster had presented a Return going over a great many years, and a smart and intelligent clerk could, if the matter was thought desirable, soon put the details together, from the information which had already been collected, at very little trouble and expense. He was sure his noble Friend would agree to modify the terms of his Motion in any reasonable
  1616
  manner, so as to suit the convenience of the Government. Perhaps his noble Friend would not object to the Motion standing over till after Easter, in order to its being more fully considered, and possibly being put into a more practical and definite shape.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)said, that he wished to clear the Government from any possible imputation that they might wish to withhold the information. He was clearly of opinion that Parliament was entitled to any information it might desire on such a subject. He objected, however, to the Motion as it stood as being unintelligible, and to the requirement of this particular information. It was not possible to draw up a Return such as was described in the Motion of the noble Lord, and he must say it was not the duty of the Government to draw up a practicable form of Motion for him. But he would point out that, with regard to the chief part of it, the difficulty of obtaining this information was remarkably small, for any one of their Lordships who would go into the Library and ask the Librarian for files of the Statutes for the period named would at once obtain the dates of the Acts in question, with which all who were acquainted with the subject of Irish legislation were thoroughly familiar. He did not see that because his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government had referred to these facts, which were accessible to everybody, it was necessary to give them to the House. Indeed, he saw most of the information asked for by the noble Lord published in a newspaper only a few days ago. It was certainly one of the most extraordinary Motions he ever saw, to ask for a Return in that House of what the House itself had done. What struck him was, that the Return which was moved for by Mr. Forster was a very valuable Report. It gave, up to the year 1880, the information which was required, and probably it would only be necessary to continue that Return to the present time. He quite accepted the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Ashbourne), as he thought it would be far better for the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne) to confer with the Lord President of the Council, in order to see what information would be really wanted by the House.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that, after the discussion, he would postpone the subject until after Easter.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.