Lords Sitting of 12 April 1886

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Private Bills (Standing Order No. 128. No interest out of capital to be paid on calls under Railway Bills), appointed.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Bankruptcy (Agricultural Labourers' Wages)* (70); Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order* (71).
Second Reading—Cape Race Lighthouse* (60); Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment (51).
Select Committee—Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 1) (25); Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 2) (40); Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3) (48), nominated.
Committee—Trees (Ireland) (42–72); Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) (52–73); Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland) (36); Poor Relief (Ireland)* (66–74).
Committee—Report—Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal (No. 2)* (58); Bankruptcy (Office Accommodation) Act (1885) Amendment* (67).
Third, Reading—Army (Annual) (55); Idiots* (65); Prison Officers' Superannuation* (61).

TREES (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 42.)
(The Lord President.)
TREES (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 42.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked that certain modifications should be considered.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER)said, that if the noble Earl wished to have the matter still further considered, it could be done on the Report stage of the Report.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, that, with the indulgence of the House, he would suggest that some provision should be made for the consideration of the landlord's interest in cases in which the Act was put in force. He thought that awkward precedents might be raised unless some provision was made to meet cases of indiscriminate tree planting.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 72.)

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
(The Lord Sandhurst.)
ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.

  (NO. 55.) THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a"—(The Lord Sandhurst.)
  In reply to Viscount BURY, to a Question respecting the Volunteers and the Capitation Grant,
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST)said, there was a great deal of information of different kinds on the subject at the War Office, and the way the Secretary of State intended to obtain his additional information was somewhat similar to that employed by the noble Viscount in 1879. A form had been issued, with columns for all the different items of expenditure that could be incurred. There were also three columns, with no headings, for expenses which might possibly have been overlooked. There were, of course, also columns for receipts, such as Capitation Grant and subscriptions, so that the Government might be able to judge how far income and expenditure

  1285
  balanced. The difference between the noble Viscount's plan and that of the Government was, that in the former Return, certain expenses were classified as necessary, and the remainder as unnecessary. In the present Return the Government had made no such distinction. The Returns were to be sent in to the Secretary of State, and he would then consider what were necessary expenses in proportion to the growths of the requirements of the Volunteer Force, and how far they were met by the existing Capitation Grant. He might add that a Paper of Questions, desiring all sorts of information, suggestions, and reasons of difficulties, financial and otherwise, accompanied those Returns. One of the Questions related to the difficulties in obtaining officers, and if there were such difficulties, to what cause they might be attributed. The Return would be for the last five years. It was as full an inquiry into details of expenditure as could be made. It was the earnest wish of the Secretary of State to look into the question in all its bearings; and he had every hope that this Return and the answers to the Questions would enable him to come to a right conclusion as regarded the increase of the Capitation Grant.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a, and passed.

MARRIAGES (HOURS OF SOLEMNIZATION) BILL.
(The Lord Monk Bretton.)
MARRIAGES (HOURS OF SOLEMNIZATION) BILL.

  (NO. 52.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 (Hours for solemnization of marriages).
  LORD MONK BRETTONsaid, that in order to meet a suggestion made by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Halsbury) on the second reading of the Bill, he would move, as an Amendment, to insert words providing that no person in Holy Orders should be subject to penalty or censure for solemnizing marriage beyond the canonical hours.
  Amendment moved,
  At end of the clause, add ("and no minister in holy orders of the Church of England shall be subject to any censure or penalty for solemnizing matrimony between the aforesaid hours of eight in the forenoon, and three in the afternoon.")—(The Lord Monk Bretton.)
  LORD HALSBURYsuggested the more general word "proceedings" in place of "censure."
  Amendment moved,
  To said proposed Amendment, to leave out from ("minister") to ("penalty"), and insert ("person shall be subject to any proceedings in any court, ecclesiastical or temporal") instead thereof.—(The Lord Halsbury.)
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsupported the Amendment.
  LORD GRIMTHORPEsaid, the Amendment, as amended, was greatly improved, and he therefore hoped his noble Friend would accept it.
  LORD MONK BRETTONsaid, he was quite willing to do so.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendment to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 73.)

GREAT BRITAIN—CULTIVATION OF TOBACCO.—QUESTION.
LORD HARRISasked Her Majesty's Government, If they are now prepared to state what facilities will be given this year for the cultivation and preparation of tobacco in the United Kingdom? When he asked the Question the other day, the noble Lord opposite (Lord Sudeley) mentioned that the Government was waiting for the Report of the Royal Agricultural Society. He (Lord Harris) believed there were one or two Societies which were quite willing to make experiments, and he trusted that the noble Lord would be able to give such an answer as would encourage attempts to be made.
LORD SUDELEY (for the Treasury): The Government are willing to facilitate experiments in the growth of tobacco in the hands of responsible persons; but they are bound to guard the exercise of the power with certain restrictions, so that the experiments may be made without risk to the Revenue. The Government had hoped that before now the Royal Agricultural Society or some other kindred body or person interested in agriculture might have undertaken the experiments themselves, or have ascertained the names of fitting and responsible persons to carry out such experiments. In the event of that being done, the Authorities of the Inland Revenue will be prepared to give facilities to such persons under

1287
proper conditions. It would be impossible at present to give general licences to all the world; though, if the experiments should prove successful, the expediency of establishing a general system hereafter might be considered. The Government regret that the subject was not brought earlier under their consideration, as it is feared that the period of the season we have arrived at is somewhat late for this year; for whatever experiments might be made, in order to their thorough success, they ought to have been carried out somewhat earlier.
THE EARL OF RAVENSWORTHsaid, he wished to say one word in justification of the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society. They had arrived at the decision which they did arrive at, because the experience of tobacco growth in Belgium which their Secretary was able to bring before them did not, in their judgment, justify them in applying any part of their funds to experiments of a like description at the present moment.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 1) BILL.
(No. 25.) (The Lord Rayleigh.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
(No. 40.) (The Viscount Bury.)

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 3) BILL.
(No. 48.) (The Lord Houghton.)
Moved, "That the following Lords be named of the Select Committee:—

E. Cowper.

L. Wigan.

E. Camperdown.

L. Methuen.

L. Ashford.

L. Houghton.

L. Balfour of Burley.

L. Lingen.

L. Rayleigh.

agreed to (The Lord Monson).
Moved, "That the Lord Bramwell be named of the said Select Committee;" agreed to (The Lord Wemyss).
Moved, "That the Lord Wolverton be named of the said Select Committee;" agreed to (The Lord Houghton).
LORD GRIMTHORPE, in rising to move—
"That all petitions presented before the 15th instant against these Bills be referred to the said Select Committee, and that the petitioners have leave to be heard before the Committee by their counsel, agents, and witnesses in support of the allegations of their petitions,"
said, he hoped that the Committee
1288
would not only be authorized, but instructed to adopt the course which he recommended. In 1882, no Committee of their Lordships had sat; but in the other House a Committee was appointed, and did all its work in eight days. It could hardly, therefore, be said that, if his Motion were adopted, the Bills would be much delayed. Witnesses were examined and counsel appeared before the Committee of the other House; and in all his long experience he had never known a case in which the evidence was so entirely in one direction, and the conclusion at which the Committee arrived in the other. Of course, all the Town Clerks were in favour of the claims of Corporations, and against those of the Companies; but he did not know what qualifications they had to give evidence on the subject. But men like Sir John Lubbock, the late Sir William Siemens, Mr. Spottiswoode, late President of the Royal Society, Sir Frederick Bramwell, and other eminent men gave evidence unanimously against the Compulsory Purchase Clause, as certain to be fatal to the development of electric lighting, and their evidence might as well have been given at Jerusalem. Four years' experience had proved that they were right, and that until new regulations were laid down there would practically be no public electric lighting. The noble and learned Lord concluded by making the Motion of which he had given Notice.
Moved, "That all petitions presented before the 15th instant against the said Bills be referred to the Committee, and that the petitioners have leave to be heard before the Committee by their counsel, agents, and witnesses in support of the allegations of their petitions."—(The Lord Grimthorpe.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that the proposal of the noble and learned Lord to give all Petitioners against the Bills an absolute right to appear before the Committee by themselves or their counsel or agents would entirely place the Committee in the hands of such Petitioners. He felt bound to oppose it on the ground of the waste of time which would be caused if it were carried. He would suggest instead, that the Petitioners be left in the hands of the Committee, and for that purpose he would move to strike out all the words in the noble and learned Lord's Motion after the word "Committee," and to add in place thereof—

1289
"And that the said Committee have leave to hear such petitioners as they may think fit by themselves, their counsel, agents, or witnesses, in support of the allegations of their petitions."
Amendment moved,
To leave out all the words after the first "Committee") and insert ("and that the Committee have leave to hear such of the petitioners us they think fit by their counsel, agents, and witnesses.")—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he thought that the scope of the inquiry ought to be limited in some way; but, at the same time, it was indispensable, in his opinion, that the Petitioners heard ought to have the assistance of counsel, for their Lordships would not be as fit as professional men to grapple with expert witnesses. The Government had so nominated the Committee as to have a majority on it; and he hoped the House would not leave them in the unfortunate position they would occupy, if counsel were not present to examine and cross-examine witnesses. Above all, they must take care to prevent the proceedings before the Committee degenerating into a Gas fight, when Gas Companies had no locus standi.
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he agreed with the noble Earl who had moved the Amendment (the Earl of Camperdown) that, as the Motion stood, the Committee would be obliged to hear any Petitioners against the Bill, whether they had any locus standi or not. For instance, the Gas Companies might insist on calling witnesses, to show that it would be a hard thing for their shareholders if the Electric Light Bill passed. He, therefore, supported the Amendment, considering that, otherwise, the inquiry could not be satisfactorily conducted by the Committee.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he thought that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Camperdown) had made out his case, that the words of the Motion were somewhat too stringent and peremptory for the purpose in view. On the other hand, the noble and learned Lord behind him (Lord Grimthorpe) had fairly shown that a thorough inquiry was necessary; because, otherwise, justice could not be done to the public in a matter where expectations had been disappointed. He thought that what was required was a form of words to signify that the House desired full scope for all bonâ fide Petitioners being heard, without depriving the Committee of some
1290
discretion in the matter, without which they would be placed in a most undignified position.
LORD GRIMTHORPEsaid, he was quite willing to amend his Motion in the manner suggested.
LORD HOUGHTONsuggested, as a further Amendment, that the time for presenting Petitions against the Bills mentioned in the Motion should be the first day after the Easter Recess, instead of the 15th instant.
Amendment moved,
To leave out ("before the 15th instant") and insert ("on or before the first sitting day after the recess at Easter.")
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE)said, he would remind their Lordships that the Government had been, originally, against the appointment of any Committee whatever upon the matter. However, a strong Committee had been appointed; and, while there had been an understanding that the Committee should not resort to a course of proceeding which would lead to a great delay, full discretion should, he thought, be left with them as to whom they should hear by counsel and witnesses. He, therefore, supported the Amendment. If the discretion was left them in one matter, surely it might be left in all.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that the Bill was not one affecting individual rights; and, while his old prejudices and predilections would prevent him desiring unduly to limit the hearing of counsel, he did certainly think that it would not be well to pass a Resolution compelling the Committee to hear by counsel and witnesses everyone who petitioned against the Bill. It would be best to leave to the Committee discretion in the matter. There was no alternative between leaving a full discretion to the Committee as to the parties and the witnesses they should hear, or compelling them to receive whatever evidence should be tendered to them by persons whose only claim to be heard was that they had petitioned against the Bill. The latter course would lead to great waste of time, and be very unsatisfactory. If their Lordships had not sufficient confidence in the Committee for that purpose, they would do well to appoint another in which they had.
LORD HALSBURYsupported the Amendment.
On Question, agreed, to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
Ordered, That all petitions presented on or before the first sitting day after the recess at Easter against the said Bills be referred to the Committee, and that the Committee have leave to hear such of the petitioners as they think fit, by their counsel, agents, aud witnesses.

PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER No. 128.)

  (No INTEREST OUT OF CAPITAL TO BE PAID ON CALLS UNDER RAILWAY BILLS.)
  LORD HOUGHTON (for the Board of Trade), in rising to move—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire whether it is expedient to amend Standing Order No. 128 (which prohibits payment of interest during the construction of works), and that no Bill containing provision for payment of interest out of capital during construction of works he read a second time before the Report of the said Committee has been laid upon the Table,"
  said, he would call their Lordships' attention to the fact that the Standing Order of the House of Commons had been altered so as to allow a Select Committee to give consent to the payment of interest in certain cases, and therefore it was desirable that there should be uniformity in the Standing Orders of the two Houses. It was a debateable question as to the policy of allowing interest to be paid, and he hoped that their Lordships would agree to its going to a Select Committee.
  Moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire whether it is expedient to amend Standing Order No. 128, and, if so, in what respect; and That no Bill containing provision for payment of interest out of capital during construction of works be read a second time before the Report of the said Committee has been laid upon the Table."—(The Lord Houghton.)
  Motion agreed to; and ordered accordingly.

SPORTING LANDS RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(The Earl of Elgin.)
SPORTING LANDS RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  (NO. 36.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSasked, whether the Bill would put the law with regard to sporting rating in the same position in Scotland as that which existed in England?
  THE EARL OF ELGIN, in reply, said, that he did not profess to be an authority upon the subject; but he had made inquiries with regard to this before moving the second reading, and he understood that in England sporting lands were rated whether they were let or not.
  An Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received To-morrow.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 51.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD FITZGERALD, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it had already passed the other House. The points of objection to it seemed to him to be rather matters for consideration in Committee than on the second reading, and if it would meet the views of their Lordships, he would post that stage until after the Recess.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he should not oppose the Bill, for he thought the position of the Irish labourer deserved their sympathy. He wished to point out that remedial legislation in Ireland had divorced the labourers from the land—that was, the Land Laws had been beneficial to the tenants, and not to the labourers. But, as regards the principle of the Bill, he wished their Lordships to look narrowly into it, for it had such names as those of Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Mr. Mayne, Mr. Sexton, and Mr. Sheehy on its back; and, therefore, in Committee, he hoped they would carefully examine its provisions. In principle, the Bill was one of those Socialistic measures which enabled Local Authorities to purchase land at the expense of the ratepayers for the benefit of third parties, in this instance, to make largess of it to the labourers. It was an Irish Bill; but if passed for Ireland it would soon be extended

  1293
  to the rest of the United Kingdom. What was the Crofters Bill but an extension of the principle of exceptional legislation? Therefore, do not lot them imagine, in dealing with this Bill, that it concerned Ireland only. Under the Acts of 1883 and 1885, everything was done by agreement; but, under this Bill, it would be compulsion. Not only that, but it also went a stop in advance of the original Acts by proposing to grant as much as half-an-acre to each labourer. In Committee, he should move certain Amendments to the measure.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he did not wish to enter in detail into the provisions of the measure, neither did he intend to oppose the second reading, because any Bill for the benefit of the labourer, or to improve his condition, would always receive the sympathetic attention of their Lordships. No doubt, as had been urged by his noble Friend (the Earl of Wemyss), in Committee, the Bill would receive full and careful attention. He could have wished, however, that the noble and learned Lord who had introduced it (Lord Fitzgerald) had entered more into detail, and it would have been well to point out that the Labourers Act had only been in operation for seven months. He (Lord Ashbourne) could well see that some of the provisions of the Bill would have to be scanned closely. There was, for instance, the definition of an agricultural labourer." That was capable of very wide extension in Ireland, and care would have to be taken on the point. It would not be enough, for instance, that a farmer's son, after working one day as a labourer, should be in a position to go to the Sanitary Authority. He wished to point out that, in Ireland, where the people were very domestic, and there were very many families, there would be a tendency for the children of labourers to demand that farms all about them should be cut up into small plots or holdings for them, although some would, only, perhaps, have gained one day's wages for agricultural labour in the year. The clause with regard to "home farms" would also require some safeguards of restriction. These should not be interfered with, except under the pressure of great necessity; and there were some home farms
  1294
  so small—not exceeding 25 acres—which should not be interfered with at all. This was a point as to which the Bill required great amendment. As to allotments, he would remind the House that the first Act upon the subject was only passed in 1883, and the second—the Amendment Act—last August, and both were stated to be liberal and generous measures. Now, why was this Bill necessary only seven months after the Act of 1885, seeing there was not a suggestion yet that that Act had had a fair trial, or that it had not worked successfully? The Bill was so drawn that a Board of Guardians could apply the compulsory powers in the way of giving allotments to labourers with no house at all. He was as anxious as anyone to improve the condition of the labourer; but he would remind the House that there was no proof whatever that existing legislation for the purposes named in the Bill had failed, and that labourers had been generally met with refusals by their landlords to grant them land. Moreover, if land were granted in the manner proposed in the Bill to labourers having no resources, it might be managed in such a way as seriously to lessen the value of the property of other people. As, however, he was in favour of legislation having for its object to improve the status and surroundings of labourers, and to make their lives more happy and comfortable, he should be sorry to refuse to read a second time a Bill which avowed that object; only, having regard to the possible bearing of the stupendous legislation in reference to Ireland now being considered in "another place," he would suggest that the stage of Committee should be fixed for some date in May, say, the 15th.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he would call their Lordships' attention to Section 14, which gave power to let any allotment on which a cottage was to be built temporarily while waiting for the erection of that cottage. In the previous Acts there was a limit of two years to the time within which houses might be built. There was no such limit in the present Bill, and he appealed to the Government to introduce one.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONsaid, that, in his opinion, there were some enactments

  1295
  in the Bill which would be a fertile source of bad blood in Ireland. For instance, if it were passed, as it stood, it would be the easiest thing possible for any persons having grudges against landholders to take advantage of its provisions. He therefore thought that care should be taken to provide against any such contingency, by introducing safeguards requiring sites appropriated for the purposes of allotments to be placed conveniently, and so as not to interfere with the rights of other people. It would further be necessary, in his opinion, to introduce some limitation and definition of the word "labourer." The Bill had been carried through the House of Commons, for the most part, in the small hours of the morning; and some objections then taken to certain details were not fully considered.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he wished further to point out that, while the Bill laid down half-an-acre, allotments in England generally consisted of a quarter of an acre; and Sir John Lawes, an expert in these matters, maintained that a quarter of an acre was too much.
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he begged to thank his noble Friends opposite for their assistance. He would give their objections the most serious consideration between then and the Committee stage, which he would fix for as late a date as possible.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly.

PARLIAMENT—ADJOURNMENT—THE EASTER HOLIDAYS.

  OBSERVATION.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE): It may be convenient to your Lordships to know that, on Friday, subject to your consideration, I shall move the adjournment from that day to Thursday, 6th May, unless anything requiring the presence of a Royal Commission should arise.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.