Lords Sitting of 9 April 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal (No. 2) (58); Poor Relief (Ireland)* (66); Bankruptcy (Office Accommodation) Act (1885) Amendment* (67).
Committee—Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) (28–69).
Committee—Report—Lunacy (Vacating of Seats)* (47); Prison Officers' Superannuation* (61).
Report—Idiots * (65).

BURGH POLICE AND HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(The Earl of Elgin.)
BURGH POLICE AND HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  (NO. 28.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill."—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY, in moving—
  "That it is inexpedient that the House should so resolve itself until such time as the measure promised by Her Majesty's Government for the establishment of county government boards has been presented to Parliament, in view of the possible changes that may thus be effected in the administration of the police force in Scotland,"
  said, that the object of the Bill was to consolidate the whole of the laws in Scotland relating to burgh police, of which one-tenth were general and nine-tenths were local laws. If there was any intention to alter the constitution of the County Government Boards, it seemed to him there might be a difficulty in regard to the police in passing this Bill before the introduction of one for the purpose to which he had just alluded. He thought it would be a wiser course that the Local Government Board Bill should pass pari passu with this Burgh Police Bill. If there was no intention whatsoever on the part of the Government to put the counties under new Authorities, then, of course, his argument fell to the ground. As he had pointed out to their Lordships, on the Motion for the second reading of the Bill, he was of opinion that an attempt should be made to make the police force of Scotland more elastic. The present system of police was somewhat obsolete, and he felt convinced that if they rendered the organization more elastic not only would they increase its efficiency, but they would bring about economy. The force, in his opinion, ought to be more of a general force. He trusted their Lordships would not think from the terms of his Notice that he desired to defeat the Bill. That was far from his desire, and there was, he thought, some reason for his proposal.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Earl of DALHOUSIE)said, he did not think the principle which the noble Earl had set forward was one on which legislation could be conducted at all. His Amendment was quite inopportune at this stage of the Bill; or, if he intended to reject the Bill altogether, it would have been much better to have moved it on the second reading. He asked the noble Earl if it was reasonable

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  to reject a Bill like this, upon which so much labour had been spent, which had been three years before the country, which had been before a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and afterwards before a Select Committee of their Lordships, and to reject it on the ground he had put forward? He believed their Lordships would do well to go into Committee without further delay, and at once set aside the objection of the noble Earl.
  Amendment negatived.
  House in Committee.
  Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.
  Clause 5 (Places to which Act shall apply).
  LORD BALFOUR, in moving, in page 6, line 10, leave out ("and so long as such local Act remains operative and unrepealed;") and at end of clause add—
  ("this Act as regards Part V. (Mitigation and Prevention of Disease) shall not apply in burghs or populous places declared to be burghs under the provisions of this Act with a population not exceeding ten thousand, unless and until the same has been adopted by resolution of the commissioners in the same manner as is provided with reference to Parts II., IV., and VI., and as specified in clause 14 hereof,")
  said, the object of his Amendment was to enable smaller burghs and populous places to elect whether the provisions of the Bill should apply to them. The measure was divided into several parts, some of them being compulsory on all burghs and populous places, and some only permissive. The latter had to be adopted by resolution, according to the machinery provided in the Bill. The object of his Amendment was to take Part 5 from the compulsory category and place it in the permissive category. The section dealt with certain sanitary matters, and he believed that while public opinion would be in favour of its adoption for large towns and cities, yet its machinery was much too cumbrous for the smaller places, even if it would not produce mischief by bringing about a reaction against sanitary legislation of this kind. He therefore thought that each small town and populous place should be enabled to say whether it would have these provisions forced upon it. This was a part of the Bill which had been very much overlooked in Scotland. He did not believe that the in-
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  habitants of urban communities were at all aware of the great changes which it would introduce in the laws affecting them if this part of the Bill was made compulsory, although he did not see that any harm would accrue if it were rendered permissive.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 6, line 10, leave out ("and so long as such local Act remains operative and unrepealed"); and at end of clause add ("this Act as regards Part V. (Mitigation and Prevention of Disease) shall not apply in burghs or populous places declared to be burghs under the provisions of this Act with a population not exceeding ten thousand, unless and until the same has been adopted by resolution of the commissioners in the same manner as is provided with reference to Parts II., IV., and VI., and as specified in clause 14 hereof."—(The Lord Balfour.)
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he hoped the House would not accept the Amendment. He might say, on behalf of the Government, that this was perhaps the most necessary part of the Bill. As to small places, they were the very worst, from a sanitary point of view, in the whole of Scotland. Ignorance abounded in them, there was no organization, and no one was responsible for seeing sanitary matters properly attended to. It was precisely that the inhabitants of these places might become aware of what was necessary for public health that the measure had been framed.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
  Clause 8 (Boundaries of burghs to which this Act does not apply from its commencement. If not adopted within a year, boundaries to be held to be unascertained).
  On the Motion of The Earl of DALHOUSIE, the following sub-section was inserted in line 29, after ("unascertained"):—
  ("8. Where any such populous place shall have resolved not to adopt this Act, the householders thereof may, as often as they shall think proper thereafter, but not sooner than two years from the date of any preceding meeting held for the purpose of considering whether the Act should be adopted, by such and the like proceedings, again take this Act into consideration, and adopt the same or determine not to adopt the same.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 9 to 13 agreed to.
  Clause 14 (Adoption in burghs wholly administered under local Police Acts).
  LORD BALFOURsaid, he begged to move an Amendment to empower the inhabitants to appear before the Sheriff and state objections. As the measure stood, the inhabitants had no knowledge of any application that might be made, except through notice published in the newspapers, and he did not see the use of giving them notice unless they had also a locus standi to object if they desired.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 11, line 11, after ("notice") insert ("in a newspaper published or circulating in the burgh, which notice shall specify the parts and sections of this Act proposed to be adopted and the portions of local police Acts proposed to be repealed"); inline 17, after ("books") add ("but in the event of any ratepayer or ratepayers lodging with the sheriff clerk objections to such resolution, which they shall be entitled to do within fourteen days of first publication of said advertisement, the sheriff shall hear parties thereon and dispose of said objections, and it shall be competent to appeal his decision to either division of the Court of Session, whose decision shall be final.")—(The Lord Balfour.)
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he could not accept the Amendment, as it seemed to be altogether wide of the intentions of the Bill.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, that if the decision to adopt the Act might be come to by the Town Council or representative body by only a majority of one, his desire was that before the Act was fixed for all time upon the inhabitants that they should have the right, under such circumstances, to object. As the Bill was so far-reaching in its provisions, he hoped the matter might still be reconsidered.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, they must either trust the representation principle or they must not. If a Town Council, having decided to adopt the Act, were to have its decision overhauled by the inhabitonts it would be an extraordinary view to take.
  LORD BALFOURobserved, that in case the inhabitants disapproved of the action of the Town Council, and turned out every member of it, yet, as the Bill stood, the town would remain fettered by its provisions for all time, even though the decision had only been arrived at by a majority of one.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYasked if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would consider the question?
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsubmitted that the proper course would be to withdraw the Amendment in the meantime.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, he would accept the suggestion.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Clauses 15 and 16 agreed to.
  Clause 17 (Contracts, &c, under former Acts to be saved. Saving of private contracts).
  On the Motion of The Earl of DALHOUSIE, Amendment made, in page 12, line 43, by adding as a new paragraph—
  ("All complaints and prosecutions raised or pending at the passing of this Act at the instance of the Procurator Fiscal shall continue and be followed forth to a conclusion in the same way and with the same jurisdiction, remedies, penalties, and powers as if the Act had not passed.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 18 to 74 agreed to.
  Clause 75 (Power to detach constables to other places).
  On the Motion of The Earl of DALHOUSIE, Amendment made, in page 35, line 4, after ("respectively"), by adding—
  ("And further, on the requisition or order of the Secretary for Scotland, the head constable of any burgh, or the chief constable of any county, shall have power to supply a certain portion of the police force under his charge for any special or temporary duty or service elsewhere within Scotland, the proportion from any one force not to exceed ten per centum, and the expense to be defrayed by the force requiring the extra police assistance.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 76 to 437 agreed to.
  Clauses 438 to 441 struck out.
  Clauses 442 and 443 agreed to.
  Clause 444 struck out.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 69).

ARMY (EDUCATION)—ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGES, SANDHURST AND WOOLWICH—REPORT OF BOARD OF VISITORS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD, in asking the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether the recommendations of the Board

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  of Visitors, in their Report in the year 1885 upon the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, and the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, have been or are likely to be carried out? said, that these recommendations had reference to various matters relating to the housing and comfort of the cadets. Both at Woolwich and Sandhurst the Visitors had reported that the accommodation required extension, and that baths and other appliances for the convenience of the students were required. He hoped the attention of the Secretary of State for War would be directed to carrying out the very practical recommendations of this Report.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST)in reply, said, that with reference to some of the matters alluded to in the Report the necessary changes and alterations had been made. At the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, the alterations in the lavatory and dressing rooms would shortly be put in hand; but the Secretary of State had at present no funds in hand to meet the outlay required in the racquet court. He quite admitted the shortness of the accommodation for the cadets; but it would be a costly operation to build a new wing, and the pressure on the funds provided in the Army Estimates was at present so great, that the Secretary of State could not, in the exercise of his discretion, at present order it to be done. He might say that on the first occasion that presented itself the Secretary of State would give his favourable consideration to the carrying out of the whole of the recommendations.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS (REPEAL) (No. 2) BILL.
(The Lord Sandhurst.)
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS (REPEAL) (No. 2) BILL.

  (NO. 58.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that he regretted to inflict himself upon the attention of the House a second time, more particularly as this second duty he had to perform was one which in its subject and details was singularly repulsive to all. But while apologizing for asking the indul-
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  gence of their Lordships, he might congratulate them, or at least express a hope, that this debate might not be one of a protracted nature. For when they passed in review the history of the action of the community in regard to these Acts, and considered the action of the House of Commons in regard to these Acts, they found that opposition was emphatically pronounced in regard to them some years ago, and that that opposition had gone on increasing in its course and vigour until he might say practical unanimity of opinion as to these Acts was visible. He might almost say that this question had ceased to be a Party one, and he was encouraged in that belief when he looked at the Division List of the Commons of the other day, and found that many prominent Members of the Tory Party voted in favour of Mr. Stansfeld's Motion, which seemed to him to point to this—that some pledges might have been exacted by Conservative constituencies of opposition to these Acts. In the last two years, since June, 1883, the opposition to these Acts had made giant strides, chiefly, he might say without fear of contradiction, owing to the energy and earnestness of the President of the Local Government Board; and whether their Lordships agreed with him or not, they could not but admire the sincerity and persistency with which he had pursued what he believed to be the right course in regard to these Acts. He carried a Motion in the Commons in 1883 against them; the majority was 72. The opponents of these Acts, gaining courage, persevered in their endeavours under that able leadership; and the other day, on a similar Motion being brought forward, the majority was increased from 72 to 114. But by the majority in 1883 the principle of the Acts was virtually doomed, and compulsory examination was done away with, and an alternative scheme, voluntary examination, was proposed, so that women should be kept in hospital till they were cured of their maladies. But this Bill was never read a second time; and, after all, although the principle of the late Acts was disallowed in this Bill, there would have been a power of compulsory detention, and a knowledge of that power in the hands of those who might abuse it, who might use it in an arbitrary if not in an unjust way, was contrary to the idea of the liberty of

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  the subject. There could be no half-measure; either they must have the matter compulsory or voluntary. The original principle of the measure being abrogated, it seemed of no use to keep such a measure on the Statute Book; and if it was not to be carried out energetically in its entirety, it was unfortunate that such a measure should be on the Book merely to be a dead letter. In asking the House to repeal these particular Acts he did not say that the only method of prevention was abolished. He had great hopes and faith that Local Bodies, now so jealous of Government interference, would undertake the duty, which ought to be their first duty, of providing for the morality of their streets and the health of their inhabitants. In undertaking that duty they had the support of the State, and, what they might consider of more importance, the hospital Votes had been left in this year's Estimates. Good works without number were undertaken by philanthropic bodies and individuals. He saw no reason why they should not extend their good offices in that direction. He might be asked what he thought of the Motion he made in regard to the Army, and whether quâ the Army he thought that it was advantageous to repeal the Acts. He would say frankly that he did not, as matters stood at present; but he did not think that a departmental opinion should carry an official away, but that he should consider the question as a whole and on the broadest views. Besides this, he was bound to say that, considering the smallness of the number of the Army in proportion to the rest of the community, he did not see how Her Majesty's Government could propose and advance legislation in regard to which the bulk of the community was strongly opposed to them, and which on many grounds presented itself as abhorrent to one's feelings and subversive of one of the first principles of our Constitution, more especially as he believed it was well within the power of those localities where soldiers were quartered, and certainly it was their duty, to endeavour to make such regulations as should provide against the evils they acknowledged, seeing how such localities benefited by the presence of the troops. In fact, these Acts existing only by popular consent, and that consent not only having been withdrawn, but expression having been made of
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  severe condemnation, and the House of Commons having endorsed that condemnation twice, he trusted their Lordships would accede to the Motion he now proposed that this Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Sandhurst.)
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, his belief was that the effect of these Acts upon young women and girls had been of a most beneficial character, many hundreds having been rescued from a miserable existence and restored to their families, when discharged, through the influence of the matrons of the hospitals. He quite agreed, however, that when Acts of Parliament ceased to be operative it was better that they should not remain upon the Statute Book; but he could not help feeling that in many cases the repeal of these Acts would have a most deleterious effect, and would tend largely to increase juvenile prostitution, and to cause misery to those not yet in being. It should not be lost sight of that the clergy and the population of those places where these Acts had been put into force had been strongly in favour of them. It was right that he should say these few words on this subject, because while admitting that the character of the Acts was in itself objectionable, yet he felt that their effect was moral. He quite agreed, however, that in the circumstances of the case it would be absurd to offer any opposition to the second reading of the Bill. In his opinion the Local Authorities ought to be required to maintain some form of lock hospital for the reception of the unfortunate creatures dealt with by the Acts now about to be repealed.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 64.) THIRD READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that he was compelled to postpone the Motion which stood upon the Paper in his name for the third reading of this Bill until Monday next, in consequence of the Bill, as amended, not having been reprinted.
  Third Reading put off to Monday next.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 66.)
(The Lord President.)
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 66.)
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE RIGHT HON. W. E. FORSTER.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said: My Lords, I think it was in 1880 that I stood at your Lordships' Table and moved a very similar Bill to that which is now before you. I received that Bill at the hands of a Colleague who was then Chief Secretary for Ireland. To-day it has been my unhappy duty, as it has been that of many of the Colleagues and friends of the late statesman, to follow the coffin which contained his remains through the stately Abbey of Westminster, and to pay the last tribute to one whom we all respected. My Lords, I cannot but say that I feel that in losing Mr. Forster the country has lost a statesman of very high character. He was remarkable from his independence of thought, from his honesty of purpose, from his great love of liberty, and from his endeavours to remove all disabilities from classes in this country and elsewhere. He made his first mark in public life in connection with this distress in Ireland; and in his subsequent career, when he had most difficult—nay, most perilous duties, as it turned out, to discharge, he performed those duties with that courage and unswerving devotion which marked his character in all things. I am sure that your Lordships will join with me in regretting the loss of a statesman so able and so experienced. With reference to the Bill before the House, I may state that its object is to enable outdoor relief to be given in certain districts in Ireland, chiefly in the Western parts of that country. The measure has already passed through the House of Commons. The matter is one that is pressing, and I propose to take the Committee stage on Monday. In conclusion, I beg to move the second reading of this Bill.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I do not propose to say anything with regard to the Bill; but I do ask
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leave to say a single word with reference to the earlier part of the noble Earl's remarks. Having had myself the privilege of sitting in the House of Commons for a quarter of a century with Mr. Forster—during the whole period, indeed, of his Parliamentary life—and having had frequent occasion to deal with him, generally as an opponent, sometimes as a friend, I can say with great truth and sincerity that I never knew a man who was more thoroughly honourable, more thoroughly trustworthy, or a man of higher courage or great fairness in dealing with the cases that came before him than Mr. Forster. He was one who acquired and commanded the respect and regard of every Member, I believe, of the House of Commons—certainly of those who had the most experience of his career. It was a very touching sight which I had the privilege to witness to-day; and I am sure that of those large multitudes who were gathered in and around the Abbey there was not one who did not feel that in the man whom we were following to the grave we were losing one of the noblest specimens of Englishmen, devoting themselves to political life for no selfish personal object, but from a desire to promote what they believe to be the good of their country and the welfare of the Empire to which they belong. Of no man more emphatically than of Mr. Forster might it be said that he looked to the Empire more than to any section of it; there was no man who paid greater attention to questions affecting the outlying portion of our great Colonial system. I was anxious to say one word in order that it might not be supposed that those who were politically opposed to Mr. Forster were insensible to the excellence of his character or the high standard which he held up to those who came in contact with him.
EARL COWPER: My Lords, some few years ago I was in close and intimate connection with the illustrious statesman whom we have just lost; and I must, therefore, join in the few words of tribute which have been paid to his memory. When Mr. Forster went to Ireland nobody knows better than I do that he went there with the purest feelings of benevolence and sympathy, and with a wish to remedy the grievances complained of by the inhabitants of that country. I know what pain it cost him to

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feel that instead of his efforts having been signalized merely by remedial measures and attempts to atone for past injustice, he was compelled, almost from the very first, to ask his Colleagues for measures for the repression of crime. I know well what pain this cost him; but I know, also, the moment that he did see that they were necessary, how vigorously and strenuously he urged those measures, and with what strength he put them in force. It must have been deep pain to him, indeed, to feel that he left the country altogether without conciliating its inhabitants in the way he wished. He must have felt, on the other hand, that he never for one moment lost the respect and admiration of his fellow-countrymen, least of all of those of his adopted county, and of his constituents, who at the time that he was most abused stuck to him staunchly in the closest and most manly manner. It must be a satisfaction to Mr. Forster's relatives and to his friends to feel how very deeply he is regretted by every class in this country. He is mourned by all; and it is felt upon all sides that if he could have recovered his health he would have been of inestimable assistance to us in what are likely to be the very troubled times before us.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNasked, with regard to the Bill, whether the Commissioners proposed by it were to be paid, and, if so, how much?
EARL SPENCERsuggested that these matters would be made clear in Committee.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.