Lords Sitting of 2 April 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Army (Annual) * (55).
PARLIAMENT—PRIVATE BILLS— STANDING ORDER, No. 128.

  RESOLUTION.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES) laid on the Table a Memorandum respecting Standing Order, No. 128. (No interest out of capital to be paid on calls), and moved that the same be printed. He thought it desirable that this Memorandum should be printed and circulated before several Bills came up to this House from the other House of Parliament, in order that their Lordships might be fully aware of the real difficulties of the case, and know what reasons there were for the payment of interest out of capital.
  Motion agreed to.
  Memorandum laid on the Table, and to be printed. (No. 56.)

HARBOURS OF REFUGE (GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND).

  ADDRESS FOR RETURNS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH, in rising to move for—
  "Returns of monies advanced on loan within the last five years towards the construction and improvement of large and small harbours of refuge in Great Britain and Ireland;"
  and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they had decided to what amount they were now prepared to advance money on loans with that object; and in the event of their being so prepared, in what localities they would recommend that the monies should be first applied? said, he must complain that, although this object of great national importance had received the sanction of different Committees of Parliament, from the Report of the Committee which sat in 1859 down to that of the Marjoribanks Committee of a few years ago, and their Reports had been accepted with approbation by Ministers of successive Governments, scarcely anything, if anything, had been done. Mr. Chamberlain, indeed, was reported to have told a deputation which waited upon him that harbours of refuge would be of very little good although constructed; but had Mr. Chamberlain made such a statement as a candidate before a seafaring constituency he probably would have lost his election, and the remark was not received with anything like approbation by those present. The best of sailors were at all times glad to know that they had harbours to which they could conveniently run if necessity arose. The infrequency of them, he believed, had a prejudicial effect upon a most important industry. At one part of the Coast, he observed, the amount of fish landed annually represented something like £3,000,000 sterling. That was an important matter of national interest; and it demonstrated to him that if these harbours were established the fishing trade would be increased, as would also be the number of those who volunteered for a seafaring life, which were matters of such enormous importance to this country. Now, what he wanted to know was whether the Government, having given their approbation to this measure, would really carry it out, and whether they had formed any plan for the construction of harbours? It had been recently stated, on

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  behalf of the Government, that no money could be expended on this object except in the way of loans. He would like to know what security the Government would accept for advancing such loans, and to ask whether they would send duly qualified persons around the Coasts to inspect suitable localities? It was vain, he submitted, to expect adequate security from local rates in poor and thinly-populated localities; and it would not be fair that these rates should be extended to localities not immediately connected with the sea. He denied, however, that this was a question of local interest only; the great loss of life around our Coasts, and care of the men engaged in the coasting trade, in boating, and in mercantile ships, who in number might be put down at 300,000 men, were matters of vast Imperial consequence. When it was stated that other Governments had done less than the English Government in providing harbours of refuge, he could only say that that was not a strong argument, because a large amount of what had been expended had been for strategic purposes; and, moreover, the interests of this country in this regard were tenfold greater than those of any other. France had expended for mercantile purposes no less than £5,000,000 within nine or 10 years, while, as regards Spain, whose Government was not usually very forward in public enterprizes, he had been perfectly amazed to see the enormous improvements effected in the harbours of that country.
  Address for—
  "Returns of monies advanced on loan within the last five years towards the construction and improvement of large and small harbours of refuge in Great Britain and Ireland."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (Lord THURLOW)said, the important subject which the noble Viscount had brought forward was one which had for a considerable time been receiving the attention of Her Majesty's Government. He was glad to be able to state on behalf of the Treasury that there was no objection whatever to the production of the Return moved for, and it would be prepared with all due despatch. As regards the general question, it might be, perhaps, convenient that he should explain very shortly how the matter stood. The question of the construction of harbours
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  of refuge had to be considered jointly with the Board of Trade and the Treasury. In the first instance, the recommendations as regards certain localities were made by the Board of Trade, and forwarded by that Department to the Treasury. By the latter they were considered and sent for examination and report to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, and it was their duty to go into each case in considerable detail, and to judge each case according to its merits. When that Report had been received the recommendations were embodied in an Estimate, and that Estimate was entered in the Public Works Loan Bill for that year. The ultimate decision in that way rested with the other House of Parliament, as having charge of financial legislation. There never had been, so far as he understood, any curtailment, or any desire to curtail any expense on this account that had been so recommended. The recommendations had been inserted in each case in full, and as such had gone to the other House of Parliament and been decided by it. There were various points referred to by the noble Lord. There was, first, locality, then the cost of construction, then it had to be considered whether the expense to be incurred would in each case be unmitigated loss, or would in the course of years bring in a revenue, so that the works would be reproductive. In the latter case, the whole or part of the cost of such harbour works ought to be borne by the locality, and especially by those whose property had been increased in value. Much consideration, therefore, ought to be given to each proposal on its own merits, and no general rule could be laid down. Then, as regarded the employment of labour, it should be remembered that, in the first instance, skilled workmen only would be required, and they ought to be careful how far they made a call upon such labour, as it would be unwise to undertake a very large quantity of such harbour work at any given time. But he could assure the noble Viscount that the matter should receive the attention of the Treasury and of the Board of Trade. There was no objection to the Return, which should be prepared with all despatch.
  THE EARL OF RAVENSWORTHsaid, he thought it desirable to remove a common misapprehension. It was commonly supposed that nothing had been done;

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  but the Local Taxation Returns would show that immense sums of money had already been expended in harbour works. On the Mersey, by the last Return, for 1883–4 the outstanding loans were about £16,000,000, and on the Tyne £3,800,000. At Swansea the loan amounted to about £240,000. Thirty years ago he had been appointed to inquire into the subject, and he found that nothing was so popular or plausible as to recommend extensive harbour construction. Everywhere there was anxiety to get public money. But he was perfectly convinced that if it was desired effectively to save human life, it could not be done better than by deepening existing harbours. He would suggest to his noble Friend that there should be added to his Motion, after the word "amount," the words "at what rate of interest and for what term of years," as that would give important information to the public.
  LORD THURLOWsaid, he would inquire whether the Return could be made out in the form, suggested by the noble Earl; but it would be more convenient to agree with the Motion in its original form. He would take care to acquaint the Treasury with the noble Earl's suggestion. He did not think there would be any difficulty in acceding to the noble Earl's request; and if it could be done it should be done.
  Address agreed to.

COLONIES.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in rising to move for—
  "All Papers addressed to the Colonial Office during the last twelve months in favour of State-directed colonization, as well as for any papers addressed to the Colonial Office requesting that official information for those who desired to become colonists should be supplied to the post offices and local authorities throughout the country;"
  and to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, How far Her Majesty's Government would be able to meet the wishes of the important deputations which had brought those subjects before the Colonial Office? said, he was quite sure that any means of relieving the present distressed condition of the labour market would be welcomed by their Lordships. In 1883 his noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) brought the subject before the House in great detail, and
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  the noble Earl who was then at the Colonial Office made a very interesting reply. The Colonial Secretary then said that there was nothing wrong in principle in the State's promoting colonization. He did not wish to bind himself or anyone else, but simply desired their Lordships to face the dangerous state of things which now existed. In reading the Reports of the Royal Commission on the Depression of Trade, he could not but be struck with the terrific increase of population in these Islands. In the course of 10 years, from 1871 to 1881, about 3,250,000, or nearly the population of London, had been added to England and Wales alone, and since the last Census nearly 1,500,000 more must have come into existence. London itself increased at the rate of 45,000 annually. This was surely a very serious matter, and it explained, to a great extent, some of the difficulties under which we now laboured, and that fact alone ought to lead us to seek a remedy for the evils which threatened us in the future. Then they had to consider the change which was being effected in agriculture. There was every reason to fear that agriculture must provide less and less occupation every year. Between 1871 and 1881 1,000,000 acres had been converted from arable to pasture, and in 1881 the number of proprietors and attendants on agricultural machines had increased to 4,200 from 2,100 in 1871, which explained, to a great extent, the displacement of manual labour that was going on in the country. As proving still further the falling movement in the country districts, they had only to look to the dwellers in the towns. In 1861 there were 172 dwellers in towns to every 100 in the country; but in 1871 the proportion had risen to 192, and in 1881 to 212. These figures told the tale of the failure of employment in the agricultural districts, and he feared this must go on more and more. There was no reason to hope that the extension of small holdings and allotments, desirable as this was, could furnish anything like an effective counteraction to this tendency. All his life he had been conversant with the system of small holdings and allotments; but he had always found that while it did good work as a supplement to wages, it could never succeed where wages fell. Nor was there any reasonable expectation that manu-

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  facturing industry would absorb our present surplus population, for it was proved that the number of hands required was constantly diminishing, although there was an increased output of manufactured goods of from 10 to 25 per cent as compared with a few years ago. The fact that there was not yet apparent much suffering among the highest class of our operatives was only evidence of the reluctance of this class to make its privations known. Every official Report which had lately been presented to the public alluded to this fact. If their Lordships studied the evidence which the Royal Commissioners laid before them, he feared that there again they would see that the prospects of our manufactures were very gloomy. Indeed, it was impossible to read the answers which were sent to the Commissioners by the Chambers of Commerce without being very anxious as to the future of our manufactures. Then there was a keen competition with foreign immigrants, who worked longer hours, were content with worse fare and poorer accommodation, and who were competing more and more with our own artizans. The prospect of our manufactures being able to supply means for this growing population was anything but promising. Then he looked to see how far emigration was affording the relief required at the present time. The figures were very curious and surprising. The English-emigrants numbered 63,000 persons in 1877, 183,000 persons in 1883, 147,000 persons in 1884, and 126,000 persons in 1885. The figures relating to Scotch and Irish emigration told exactly the same tale. The number of Scotch emigrants was 8,000 in 1877, 32,000 in 1883, and 21,000 in 1885; while the number of Irish, emigrants was 22,000 in 1877, 105,000 in 1883, and 60,000 in 1885. The diminished number of emigrants last year might be accounted for partly by the state of the labour market abroad and in the Colonies; but, however that might be, he contended that emigration had not afforded that relief which the state of our labour market so much required. The Returns relating to net emigration were still worse than those to which he had just referred Taking British and Irish emigration only, after deducting immigrants from emigrants, the numbers were 31,000 persons in 1877, 246,000 persons in 1883
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  and 122,000 persons in 1885. These were the numbers of persons who had been actually deducted from the labour market of this country. He feared that instead of voluntary emigration being in our hour of need a great resource it was more and more ceasing to supply our need. So that we were left face to face with this very serious difficulty—that our agriculture and our manufactures were less and less able to supply our people with employment; while emigration was less and less supplying a safety valve for the population. The minds of all thinking men, whether amongst the operative classes or amongst those who sat in that House, must, in these circumstances, be turned to the Colonies. It was impossible that they should not feel that there were parts of those Colonies to which they ought to look more vigorously to utilize our surplus population. Some people spoke as if the advocates of emigration were urging the banishment of some of our best working men; but the truth was that we had got beyond the stage of thinking that settlement in the Colonies was equivalent to banishment. Probably there was hardly any noble Lord who had not some member of his family settled in one of our Colonies. He was not speaking of the "ne'er-do-well," but was referring to the change of the last 25 years, which had led to members of almost every family going to the Colonies, not as banishment, but as passing to a second home. He knew of nothing more touching than the emigrants' letters, in which they spoke of new hopes and feelings of enjoyment, and expressed their delight at the prospect of certain and regular work. This question had been brought forward on two occasions within the last 12 months. An important meeting was held at the Mansion House, and since then the noble Earl who presided over the Colonial Office received in February an important deputation headed by Lord Brabazon. That deputation represented 170,000 workmen at Manchester, Sheffield, and other places, and they made two requests. The first was for State-directed emigration—namely, State-planned new settlements, with special arrangements, and State loans to enable settlers to go out. He believed that Boards of Guardians were now empowered to use the rates for emigration. But this was a very grave

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  and serious matter, and he would like to know more about the details of it before he gave a decided opinion in favour of it. At all events, the subject was clearly worthy of careful consideration. The second great point pressed upon the Government was that information should be given to every part of the country as to the Colonial openings—that was to say, that the Colonial Office should get the best information together, and forward it to many centres throughout the country. He believed a great deal of good would be done if that suggestion were acted upon. The noble Earl the Colonial Secretary, in replying to the deputation, said that—
  "Communications had taken place between Lord Derby and Sir F. Stanley, the Crown Agents, and the Treasury, with regard to appointing some Government Office, by which all the information bearing upon colonization and emigration should be more rapidly and universally spread in the country. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer had been for some time favourable to the establishment of such a Department."
  He trusted that some decision would shortly be arrived at with regard to the formation of this new Colonization Department. The two conditions to a loan which we should have to insist upon if we pressed this colonization further were—first, that there should be an agreement with the Colonies as to whatever we did; and, secondly, that we should be careful not to send out any worthless emigrants. With these conditions he thought we might consider this larger colonization scheme with a view to action. He hoped that no fear that we might get rid of cheap labour at home would induce anybody to hold their hands on the subject. For the future we must not think of placing our prosperity on cheap labour. For any civilized country to base its prosperity on cheap labour would be to base its future on a very uncertain and unsafe ground.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for All papers addressed to the Colonial Office during the last twelve months in favour of State-directed colonization, as well as any papers addressed to the Colonial Office requesting that official information for those who desire to become colonists should be supplied to the post offices and local authorities throughout the country."—(The Earl of Harrowby.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE): The noble Earl has made an interesting
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  speech on a question of great importance, especially at the present time. He has given us some remarkable facts and figures; but I do not propose to follow him in all his statements, though I shall guard myself against being supposed to agree with all the inferences which he drew from those facts and figures. The principal point on which he dwelt was the importance of emigration and colonization. I have no doubt these two things, if properly conducted, can be made of great use both at home and in the Colonies. In regard to State-aided emigration and State-aided colonization, the matter is one of great difficulty and some complication. My noble Friend has alluded to Lord Carnarvon's speech a few years ago; but the late Government took no steps themselves in the matter, and the noble Earl himself most sensibly and judiciously refrained from giving any express opinion of his own as to any particular form of State-aided emigration. The noble Earl is quite right in stating that the matter was under the notice of the Colonial Office. Very lately I have had a great number of schemes submitted to me, especially the one alluded to by the noble Lord from the National Association for Promoting Colonial State-aided Emigration. The Government at once thought it their duty to give their careful consideration to the proposal made with such authority. We, therefore, communicated at once with the Local Government Board on the matter, and they are now carefully considering the subject. We were bound also to communicate with the Treasury on the subject, and with the aid of the Local Government Board we framed a set of questions which we have addressed to the Representatives of the Colonies in this country, in order that they may give us information that may be useful in our deliberations. With regard to what the noble Lord said as to the Papers, if he will be good enough to withdraw his present Motion I will take care at no distant period to obtain, by command of Her Majesty, Papers relating to the whole subject. With reference to one point on which the noble Lord laid great stress, and which he considered had a most practical bearing—namely, that we should give the country all the information he mentioned—I may say that we entirely adopt that view. That is the view favoured by our

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  Predecessors. When we first went into the question we thought it would be better for persons in this country that the machinery should be connected with the Local Government Board; but subsequently Mr. Chamberlain gave it as his opinion—in which view Iconcurred—that, looking to the advantages and disadvantages, it would be better to connect it with the Colonial Office. At this very moment there are Representatives of the Colonial Office and the Treasury meeting in order to settle the details of a pecuniary character which it is absolutely necessary should be settled before I can appoint anyone to take the situation. Practically, I am not taking too much upon myself to say that a very short time indeed will elapse before we shall be able to inform the noble Earl that the thing itself is done.
  LORD NORTONsaid, he begged to express his satisfaction at what had fallen from the Colonial Secretary. They ought to treat the Colonies as extensions of this country. People were talking of allotments—of three acres and a cow—when there were 3,000,000 acres at their disposal across the sea. He could not help thinking that what was wanted was a little more concert with the Governments of the Colonies in order to facilitate the use of the enterprize which was ready for colonization. The boarding out of young homeless children in Canada—acclimatizing them as Colonists—should meet the double demand of the country wanting labourers, and the labourers wanting country.
  THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: I wish to express my own great gratification at the manner in which the noble Earl opposite has met the question which has been raised by my noble Friend. The course which he is about to adopt is, in my opinion, a sound and prudent course. I only interpose for a few moments to say a word as to what has been brought under notice in connection with the inquiries of the Royal Commission on Depression of Trade. I am satisfied that there is a great deal to be done for the benefit of the country, not only by propagating information to the public, and especially to working men, with regard to the condition of particular Colonies, but in the way of generally improving the technical education given to our people in this country. We are very much behind some
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  other nations in that respect. It is of the greatest importance that we should take measures not only to make known openings in the Colonies to working men, but also to make known to merchants and manufacturers the capabilities and the capacities of our Colonies and of foreign countries. Such information would enable our merchants and manufacturers to direct their energies in the best and most profitable way for the conduct of their business. I believe that a great deal is being done by Germany and other countries to give a better knowledge of what may be called commercial geography than is afforded in this country. The people should be taught where they should direct their efforts, what kind of efforts should be made, in what direction trade was capable of being improved, and what kind of industry was most likely to be successful. I hope that the inquiries we have heard of to be made by the Colonial Office in conjunction with other Departments will not be limited to the prospects of working men or emigrants going out of this country, but that they will lead to the furnishing of information likely to be useful, bringing before the manufacturers and people of this country the position and prospects of the Colonies themselves. I am sure a great deal is to be done in that way.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies he should be glad to withdraw his Motion. He trusted that the noble Earl would lay all the Papers possible on the subject before Parliament. His great object had been gained, the Government having virtually promised to establish a Colonization Department at the Colonial Office.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I do not know that that will be the name for it.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY: NO; but it will be that virtually.
  Motion (by leave of the House; withdrawn.

POOR LAW—DEATH FROM OVER- FEEDING.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTONsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord representing the Local Government Board a Question of which he had given him private Notice. The following report,

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headed, "Death of a child from overfeeding," had recently appeared in the Press:—
"At an inquest on the body of a child held at Totnes Workhouse the medical officer stated that the deceased had died from being over-fed, and he strongly condemned the system of giving infants solid food. The matron said unless the orders of the Local Government Board were to the contrary she was compelled, even if a child were born to-morrow, to allow it 3 oz. of bread each day. The Coroner remarked that a child so young could not digest the food, and the doctor said that he was utterly surprised at the Local Government Board's orders."
Experience showed him that the Local Government Board was incapable of giving so absurd an order; but he hoped that further inquiry would be made by that Department into this case.
LORD SUDELEY(for the Local Government Board): The general consolidated order issued by the Poor Law shall be dieted with the food set forth in the dietary table prescribed for the use of the workhouse. But the dietary table at Totnes directs that children under two years of age shall be dieted at discretion. Moreover, the order provides that the medical officer shall be consulted by the matron as to the nature of the food of the infants, and makes it his duty to give all necessary instructions as to the diet or treatment of children. The Local Government Board will cause further inquiries to be made at Totnes into this special case.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.