Lords Sitting of 1 April 1886

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3) (48); Trees (Ireland) (42).
Referred to a Select Committee—Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 1) (25); Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 2) (40); Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3) (48).
Third Reading—Justices Jurisdiction* (43); Law of Evidence Amendment (44), and passed.

NEW PEERS.
The Right Honourable Richard de Aquila Grosvenor (commonly called Lord Richard de Aquila Grosvenor), having been created Lord Stalbridge of Stalbridge in the county of Dorset—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Right Honourable William Baron Kensington in that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, having been created Baron Kensington of Kensington in the county of Middlesex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE—GREECE AND TURKEY—THE RUSSIAN FLEET.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he had anything to communicate to the House with respect to the reported departure of the Russian Fleet from Suda Bay?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (The Earl of ROSEBERY): I understand that orders will be at once given, if they have not been already given, for the Russian Fleet to return to Suda Bay. I also understand that the Russian Fleet only left the Bay for the purpose of re-victualling. I may add that Her Majesty's Government have received the most cordial assurances of co-operation from the Russian Government in this matter.

LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 44.)
(The Lord Bramwell.)
LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 44.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord Bramwell.)
  LORD DENMANsaid, he had a Notice on the Paper to move the rejection of the Bill. He hoped it was not unseemly in him to oppose a Bill which had been so often carried in their Lordships' House, and which was nearly being referred to a Grand Committee in "another place." Such Committees, however, were devices of the last Parliament. He had great respect for the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell), who was not called to the Bar till he was 30 years of age; and before 1838, for six years he (Lord Denman) had the advantage of hearing Sir James Scarlett and Sir John Campbell; two Sir Fredericks—Pollock and Thesiger—one grave, the other gay; and two Sir Williams—Erle and Follett—and they were often on different sides, and one must have been wrong. The Bill was faulty in every way—notwithstanding the amelioration by the Amendment reported. He believed the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition opposed the principle of the Bill, when he said, in this House, that he should attach no importance whatever to evidence extorted by interrogations by police officers. He thought it might amuse their Lordships to quote from The Critic; or, A Tragedy Rehearsed (by Sheridan), the significancy of the mode of entrance of the ancestor of the noble Marquess——
  "Puff—I only hope the Lord High Treasurer is perfect—if he is but perfect.
  "(Enter Lord BURLEIGH, goes slowly to a chair and sits.)
  "Sneer—Mr. Puff.
  "Puff—Hush! vastly well, Sir! vastly well! a most interesting gravity.
  "Dangle—What, isn't he to speak at all?
  "Puff—Egad, I thought you'd ask me that! Yes, it is a very likely thing—that a Minister in his situation, with the whole affairs of the nation on his head, should have time to talk! But hush! or you'll put him out.
  "Sneer—Put him out; how the plague can that be if he is not going to say anything.
  "Puff—There's the reason! Why, his part is to think; and how the plague do you imagine he can think if you keep talking.
  "Dangle—That's very true, upon my word.
  (Lord BURLEIGH comes forward, shakes his head, and exit.)
  "Sneer—He is very perfect indeed! Now, pray what did he mean by that?
  "Puff—You don't take it?
  "Sneer—No, I don't, upon my soul.
  "Puff—Why, by that shake of the head, he gave you to understand that even though they had more justice in their cause, and wisdom in their measures—yet, if there was not a greater spirit shown on the part of the people, the country would at last fall a sacrifice to hostile ambition.
  "Sneer—The devil! did he mean all that by shaking his head?
  "Puff—Every word of it—if he shook his head as I taught him."
  He (Lord Denman) did not presume that he could teach the noble Marquess; but in his protest against a Bill for admitting wives as witnesses against their husbands he mentioned the present Bill which had passed this House, and deprecated the interrogation of persons on their acts by magistrates before, and by counsel on, their trials. He, perhaps, had better been silent himself; but he could not refrain from quoting the last verse of a sonnet, written in 1531, by Lord Vaux, commending silence—
  "Wherefore for virtue's sake
  I can be well content;
  The sweetest time in all my life
  To deem in thinking spent."
  He would not make the Motion, which stood in his name.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 3) BILL.—(No. 48.)
(The Lord Houghton.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 3) BILL.—(No. 48.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HOUGHTON (for the Board of Trade), in moving that the Bill be read the second time, said, that when the two previous Bills on this subject were before the House he had stated that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill of their own. The Bill only consisted of one clause. By the present law the ordinary course was for a Company to apply to the Board of Trade for a Provisional Order, which was given for a term of 21 years, at the end of which, or at the end of any subsequent period of seven years, the Local Authority was empowered to buy the undertaking on certain terms. The present Bill proposed to extend the period of 21 years to 30 years, and it provided that if the consent of the Local Autho-
  420
  rities was obtained at the time of applying for the Order the term might be increased to 42 years. Then, at the end of every 10 years, the purchasing powers of the Local Authority might be exercised. He should, however, be willing to add a clause leaving it to the discretion of the Board of Trade to increase the term to 40 years. In case the Local Authorities declined to assent to the longer term, they would be required to state the grounds of their refusal in writing. It was the firm belief of the Government that this Bill would satisfy those who desired to promote electric light undertakings. He might mention that a Company at Chelsea had offered to undertake electric lighting in that district if they were permitted to take advantage of any legislation which the Government might pass.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Houghton.)
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that the Bill was in the right direction, and he would offer no objection to the second reading.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he had no objection to the second reading, as, no doubt, some modification of the existing law was required. But the Board of Trade were thoroughly justified in taking every precaution that the public should not be exposed to losses in respect of electric lighting similar to those which they had incurred with respect to gas and water. The compensation to be given to Companies at the end of the terms should be of a fixed amount. Whilst the Government extended the period to 30 years, they did not deal with that part of the principle of the Act of 1882 which enacted that no extra compensation should be given on account of the compulsory purchase. He doubted very much whether the method proposed by the Government was the best one, or the only one which could be adopted.
  LORD RAYLEIGHsaid, he had no objection to the second reading, as the Bill was some improvement on the existing law. But no mere extension of time would meet the requirements of the case if the very stringent terms of purchase now imposed were not modified, and if no compensation were to be allowed in respect of goodwill or profit. During the last years of the term the enterprize would suffer greatly

  421
  from the difficulty of carrying out improvements and maintaining the plant in order.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 1) BILL.
(No. 25.) (The Lord Rayleigh.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
(No. 40.) (The Viscount Bury.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 3) BTLL.
(No. 48.) (The Lord Houghton.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT (No. 3) BTLL.

  BILLS REFERRED TO A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  VISCOUNT BURY, in rising to move that these three Bills be referred to a Select Committee, said, that the Act of 1882 had been found to be insufficient. But no mere extension of time would be sufficient. He understood that the Government would not be averse to extend the period of 30 years to 40 years; but the mere extension of time was not sufficient for the equitable dealing with the matter. At the end of the period, whatever it was, the plant of the undertakings would be sold as old iron. He did not believe anyone would invest their money under such circumstances. At all events, the best course would clearly be to refer the three Bills to a Select Committee. He belonged to a society which comprised distinguished men of science like Sir W. Thompson and men who were acquainted with the practical application of science like Mr. Preece, of the Post Office, and which, might, in distinction from the purely scientific and commercial aspects of the question, be fairly said to represent educated public opinion on the subject. It was most important that the evidence of such persons should be taken, and clearly the best way of dealing with the question was to refer the three Bills to a Select Committee. He thought that the Bill which he had the honour to introduce dealt with the subject in a much simpler manner. It provided that electricity should be supplied by meter, and that the Company should not interfere with the manner in which the user of electricity chose to use the electric energy placed at his disposal. There was hardly any limit, he might observe, to the ways in which electricity might be used, and more than one meter had been found
  422
  which was accepted by electricians as efficient. These were matters, however, for expert evidence, and they could be discussed far better before a Committee than by talking about a Bill over their Lordships' Table. This was one reason why he thought all these Bills should be referred to a Select Committee. If his noble Friend's Bill, as it stood, became law, it would be impossible to get capitalists to embark a sufficient amount of money in the undertaking with any fair prospect of success. His noble Friend opposite stated that there were some purveyors of electricity who were willing to come under the terms of his Bill. It might be so; but he would venture to express his belief that the terms would not be sufficiently attractive. His own Bill differed in one respect from that of his noble Friend behind him, who proposed that electricity should be put upon the same footing as gas, and that there should be no fixed date at which the concerns should be handed over to the Local Authority, but that, like Gas Companies, they should be perpetual, and that only their dividends should be restricted. His scheme was that at the end of 40 years the Local Authorities should, if they so desired, have a power of coming in and buying the concern at a fair price as a going concern. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the three Bills be referred to a Select Committee.
  Moved, "That the Bills be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Viscount Bury.)
  LORD GRIMTHORPEsaid, that the question was whether Municipal Bodies were to be authorized, at the end of some period which was only to be determined by the Government Bill, to buy the undertakings of Electric Light Companies for something less than they were worth. Was the Corporation of any town to be allowed to buy a going concern for something less than it was worth from those who had had the risk of starting it and keeping it going? In support of that proposition he had heard nothing, except that the Corporations would like it. No doubt they would like to have the same power with regard to railways and gas and water. It was entirely uncertain whether Electric Lighting Companies would be financially successful or not; but

  423
  although, their success was uncertain, and hitherto none had succeeded, the House was asked to give Corporations the opportunity of playing the game of "Heads I win, tails you loose." If the Companies paid and became prosperous the Corporations would buy them; if not, they would leave them alone. He would admit that the Companies ought not to receive the extra price allowed by surveyors for compulsory purchase, usually 10 to 20 per cent. The noble Lord had mentioned offering to light Chelsea on whatever might turn out to be the final terms of the Government Bill. He should like to know what they could not get an offer for? In his experience he generally found that the highest offer was the worst bargain; and he was convinced that if they hampered undertakings in the manner proposed that it would only tend to bring financially weak, incompetent Companies into existence; that these Companies would do their work badly, especially during the latter years over which the order extended; and that they would be giving Local Bodies a right which not even the State had ever before enjoyed, even over Companies whose success was certain if they were properly managed, and he was convinced that such a power ought not to be granted.
  LORD HOUGHTON (for the Board of Trade)said, that the question whether the Bills should be referred to a Select Committee rested entirely with their Lordships' House. If he were right in supposing that the Government Bill would be satisfactory to the promoters of electric light undertakings, it did not seem to him, under those circumstances, that there was any reason for sending it to a Select Committee. The whole of this subject was threshed out thoroughly before a Select Committee of the other House in 1882, and a most voluminous Report was made. All the technical questions to which the noble Viscount had referred were then thoroughly gone into, and if another Committee were appointed the same evidence would have to be taken. He did not think that the result would be to place the Committee in possession of any new scientific or commercial fact upon the subject. Moreover, to send the Bills before a Select Committee would be practically to prevent any legislation taking place before the end of next Session.
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that in his opinion these Bills ought to be referred to a Select Committee. He did not wish to find the least fault with those who were responsible for the original Act, by which the Electric Light Companies were given a lease for 21 years. No doubt the authors of that Act were actuated by the best possible motives, and were solely desirous of making the best bargain for the public with the people who embarked their capital in these undertakings. In attempting to make a good bargain for the public in 1882 the Government offered such terms as positively no one would accept. He believed that there had been one application only—he was not quite certain that there had been even one—for a Provisional Order under the Act of 1882. That this was the case was not surprising. If at the end of 21 years the undertakers were bound to sell their property, not, perhaps, at the price of old iron, but for its value as it stood, capitalists would not embark their money in the undertaking. It might very well be that after struggling against difficulties for many years, just as a Company had overcome them and were but beginning to be able to pay a reasonable dividend upon their shares their terms of concession would expire, and the Local Authority would step in, and, being able to borrow money at 4 per cent. would buy them out. The proposal contained in this Bill was that the term of concession should be 30 years, or, with the consent of the Local Authority, 40 years.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, that in the event of the Local Authority objecting to an extension of the term the Board of Trade would be empowered to extend it to 40 years, or longer, with the approval of Parliament.
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that in 1882 the Government had only offered half the advantages to a Company that they did now; but he was positively assured that even the terms now offered were so bad that even under the new Bill, as under the old Act, there would be no electric lighting. Confessedly 20 years was too short a time; 30 were now offered, or 40. On what information would their Lordships hold that 30 or 40 years were enough, and not too much? He did not think that their Lordships would, without further information, arrive at the conclusion that 40 years was

  425
  a sufficiently long term; and, therefore, without the slightest desire to oppose their Bill, or to throw difficulties in the way of the Government, he held that it should be referred to a Select Committee.
  LORD RAYLEIGHpointed out that the history of the Act of 1882 showed that the original proposal of the Board of Trade was that the term should be seven years only. That term was extended to 14 years in the House of Commons, and to 21 years by that House. Under these circumstances, it was impossible to feel much confidence that the Board of Trade had hit the exact length of term necessary for those undertakings in the present measure. The stringency of the provisions of this Bill would probably prevent the public from obtaining the benefit of electric lighting at all.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he hoped that the Government would consent to their Bill being sent to the Select Committee. So many points and details had been raised during the debate that it was quite clear they could only be thus properly considered. But even a Select Committee would find it difficult to form a correct estimate of the length of the term necessary from the evidence of professional witnesses who were likely to appear upon both sides and to give evidence opposite ways with equal positiveness.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE)remarked that the arguments which had been put forward in favour of sending this measure before a Select Committee were of a very different character. He could not, however, but perceive that the feeling of the House was in favour of a Select Committee. At the same time, both individually and on behalf of the Board of Trade, he must enter his protest. The Board of Trade were extremely anxious that this important question should be settled at once. The delay which had already occurred had been very injurious to one of the most useful inventions of late years. He entirely agreed that it would be an almost hopeless task for a Select Committee to attempt to settle the number of years' term that would induce capitalists to invest money in these undertakings. He felt convinced that if the Bill came out of the Select Committee, and was approved by
  426
  their Lordships' House on the principle which had been very generally advocated that night, there was not the slightest chance of its passing through the other House of Parliament, and that the question would be indefinitely delayed. He quite admitted that it was a matter for the House itself to decide; and, as the opinion of the House seemed to be in favour of referring the Bill to a Select Committee, he could only join in the hope expressed by the noble Earl who spoke last that a conclusion might be arrived at by the Committee as soon as possible.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he must express his gratification that the noble Earl opposite had assented to the reference of the Bill to a Select Committee. Their Lordships could have but one feeling—namely, that the question should be dealt with as speedily, and at the same time as soundly, as possible. At present there was practically a paralysis of public electric lighting. What they desired was that some means should be found by which the public of this country would more largely enjoy the benefits of that invention. While full protection was secured to the public interest, they did not wish capitalists to be deterred, as they were at present, by the conditions of the existing law.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of REDESDALE)said, he would suggest that the Select Committee should be a small one.
  Motion agreed to: Bills referred to a Select Committee accordingly.

TREES (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 42.)
(The Lord President.)
TREES (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 42.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER), in moving that the Bill be read the second time, said, he would not delay their Lordships by explaining at any length the provisions of this measure, which had received the assent of both Parties in the other House. The Bill was not a Government measure; but as no one objected to it in the other House it was thought by the Irish Executive that, as it was a useful Bill, it was one which might very well be taken charge of by them, and he had

  427
  accordingly been asked to take it in hand in their Lordships' House. The measure was for the purpose of extending the statutory powers in regard to trees which now existed in Ireland. Under an old Act of Parliament tenants for life or tenants for more than 30 years were entitled to register all trees planted by them after having first given notice to the owners of the land of their intention to do so. This Bill would extend this provision to other classes of tenants, and it also contained certain modifications of the old law. One of these was to enable the tenant ejected for the non-payment of rent to sell the trees he might have planted on the land or to get compensation for them, just in the same way as he would get compensation for certain other valuable improvements which were dealt with by the Acts of 1871 and 1881. There were also certain other modifications of the old statutes enabling the tenant acting bonâ fide to cut down trees himself, if he did so either before or just after receiving notice to quit. But, under certain circumstances, the landlord would have the same rights which he now enjoyed under the old Irish Acts. He did not think that he need say more on that occasion, and would content himself with moving the second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNsaid, he did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but remarked that certain parts of its provisions wore a somewhat suspicious aspect; and unless they could be satisfactorily explained he should feel disposed to move their rejection in Committee. It was somewhat remarkable that, on the eve of some great measure for the expropriation of the Irish landlords, the Government should take under their wing a Bill of this kind, which certainly did not seem to contemplate their being got rid of altogether. He quite thought that some improvement might be effected in the planting of trees in Ireland; but he certainly could not see why a tenant ejected for non-payment of rent should be placed on the same footing as the men who paid their rent, and that he also should be allowed to go on the land for twelve months after he had been ejected for the purpose of cutting the trees down. There
  428
  were other portions of the Bill which he did not quite understand.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of REDESDALE)said, he would point out that the Bill would require a considerable amount of attention from their Lordships in Committee, especially in regard to the permission to be given to the tenants to cut down trees—a power which needed very careful guarding. As their Lordships were aware, if these trees were of considerable growth the mere cutting down would not suffice. The roots might be left in the ground, and the undergrowth which would in a short time appear would be of considerable injury to the land, which, so far as farming purposes were concerned, might, until great expense had been incurred, be practically valueless for agricultural purposes.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he hoped that some interval would be allowed to take place before the Committee stage was taken. In common with his noble Friend (the Earl of Courtown) he did not quite understand the exact bearing of the 3rd sub-section of Clause 3 or Clause 4, and they ought to have the opportunity of consulting with gentlemen in Ireland on the effect of those clauses. The question was one of some importance, considering that each tenant was to be allowed to plant as he liked, and that his planting was to be considered as improvements to the land. Trees, as a rule, were many years in arriving at maturity; and, although compensation was to be given, they might be rather a detriment to the land than an improvement.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 12 th of April next.

POST OFFICE—THE METROPOLITAN POLICE—THE TELEGRAPHS.

  QUESTION.
  EARL FORTESCUEasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government had made any arrangements for giving officers of the Metropolitan Police authority, on their responsibility, to order the telegraphists at postal telegraphic offices to clear the line at once for urgent messages to Scotland Yard, as recommended by the Committee of Inquiry into the Metropolitan disturbances on the 8th of February last?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Lord WOLVERTON): In conjunction with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, I arranged some weeks ago for the provision of direct wires from the Central Telegraph Office into Scotland Yard. All the telegraph offices in the Metropolitan district, numbering about 400, have direct communication with the Central Telegraph Office, and by means of the wires to Scotland Yard a message handed in by the police at any one of these 400 offices would secure very prompt transmission to headquarters. Instructions have also been issued authorizing the acceptance of the police messages without prepayment, and every care will be taken that no time is lost in dealing with the messages.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.