(NO. 77.) SECOND BEADING. (Hansard, 7 May 1885)

§ LORD GREVILLE
, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to prevent the existence of bogus and swindling Friendly Societies, which at the present time many people were induced to join under the misapprehension that because a Society was stated to be "registered under the Act of Parliament" it must be a sound and honest one. The Bill would not be retrospective, but would apply to all Friendly Societies to be henceforward formed; and he thought that in proportion as those Societies were made sound undertakings they would inspire confidence among the working classes, who would be thereby encouraged in habits of thrift, and induced to invest their savings. He had received letters from working men expressing a hope that the law would be amended as this Bill proposed; and the Rev. Canon Blackley, who had very great experience on this subject, wrote— I hope and trust that this Bill may pass into law; I think it most highly desirable in order to protect the interests of those young men who may desire to join Friendly Societies. The object of the Bill was to amend the Act of 1875 with regard to the registration of these Societies. There were at present two kinds of Societies, those registered and those not registered; but under Ms Bill it would be requisite for those who formed a Society to obtain an actuarial certificate as to the tables of contributions and subscriptions and the rates of payments for relief before they were admitted to registration. If the Bill passed into law he thought it probable that many of the Societies against whom it was directed would become affiliated with the great Societies 1816 —such as the Foresters, the Odd Fellows, the Shepherds, &c.—some of which had over 500,000 members. He thought the Bill would be welcomed by the thoughtful and prudent working men of the country, who would look to their Lordships' House with feelings of gratitude for introducing a measure which would greatly conduce to their comfort and prosperity.

LORD THURLOW
said, he was sorry he was not able, on the part of the Treasury, to support the Bill. He thought the House would appreciate the motive of the noble Lord in bringing it forward. The object aimed at was undoubtedly a most excellent one. It was the diminution of insolvency among Friendly Societies, which, it was stated—he did not know with how much accuracy—was assuming considerable and increasing proportions. There could be no question of greater importance, because nearly every working man in the country was connected with them in some form or other. But, at the same time, this was a question on which legislation ought not to be rashly and inopportunely pressed forward. The Act of 1875, which the noble Lord sought to amend, was very carefully drawn and considered, and was the result of, and embodied, most, if not all, the recommendations of more than one Select Committee which considered the subject. The Treasury had recently considered the subject with great care, and with the assistance of those most entitled to speak with authority on the matter—namely, the Chief Registrar and Actuary of Friendly Societies—and both those gentlemen concurred that to take the step contemplated by the noble Lord's Bill would be to take a retrograde step, and to return to the course which was abandoned in the Bill of 1875. It would practically re-enact Section 13 of the Act of 1846, which, in like manner, made the certificate of an actuary the absolute condition of registration. The Act of 1846 was repealed four years after it was passed, as experience showed that it drove the Societies from seeking registration. Immediately before the Act of 1846, 2,101 Societies applied for registration, and of them 1,683 were admitted; but during the two years immediately following that 1817 Act 1,780 Societies sought registration, and only 423 were actually enrolled. This falling off was, according to the high authority of Mr. Tidd Pratt, entirely owing to that Act, which, it would be seen, had had a decidedly deterrent effect. The Chief Registrar opposed the Bill, because it would practically have the effect of undoing what had now been going on very satisfactorily since the passage of the last Act in 1875. Compulsory actuarial certificates did not insure the safety of Societies, but rather created a false sense of security, and the only effect of the Bill would be to reduce registration to a minimum. The existing Act was sometimes considered a weak one; but it was really a stringent one. The result of the Bill would be to throw on the State the moral responsibility for the well-being and solvency of these countless Societies; while, as a matter of fact, the provisions of the existing law as to making Valuation Returns to the Registrar practically achieved the object of the proposed measure. Under the circumstances, he ventured to assure their Lordships that this was not a question to be hastily or rashly approached by Parliament without much further evidence of the desirability of amending the Act of 1875. Probably their Lordships would concur in the view taken by the Treasury, that it would be unwise to attempt new legislation on this subject except after due consideration by a Committee of equal weight to the one on whose recommendations the existing law was mainly based. He therefore ventured to appeal to the noble Lord not to press the second reading of the Bill.

THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE
said, he had had the privilege of knowing Mr. Tidd Pratt very well, and it was a curious circumstance that that gentleman had once pointed out to him the very blot which the noble Lord's Bill was intended to cure. He said there were a large number of Societies throughout the country supposed to be perfectly sound, and which were joined because they were registered; but which were, in reality, perfectly unsound, and he also said the fact of registration was no guarantee of the soundness of a Society. This Bill was intended to cure that defect, and to give some real guarantee that a Society, when registered, was a sound and well-constructed Society. That purpose was a very important one; 1818 and he rejoiced to hear that it would be taken into careful consideration by Her Majesty's Government, and that the purpose of this Bill would therefore probably, somehow or other, be carried into effect.

§ LORD NORTON
submitted that without a proper certificate of the tables there was no guarantee for the soundness of these Friendly Societies, many of which were admittedly unsound. Registration became a snare and a delusion to the people in the most essential concerns of thrift and savings. Without a guarantee of scientific calculation there was no use of registration at all, and it was simply a publication of names, not worth the cost of a Registrar. He suggested that if the Bill were rejected the subject should be referred to a Committee of Inquiry.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON
said, he had not looked very closely into the Bill; but the subject was a most important one. There was great force in the proposal of his noble Friend who had just sat down, that the Government should assent to its being referred to a Committee of Inquiry, as it was a matter on which there was a very serious and real grievance. A large number of the Societies which it would affect were insolvent, and yet poor subscribers were induced to join them. He failed, however, to see why the Bill was to be thrown out.