Lords Sitting of 5 May 1885

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Westminster Hall Restoration [No. 99].
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Barristers Admission (Ireland) * (100); Metropolitan Streets Act (1867) Extension* (101); Sea Fisheries (Scotland) Amendment* (102).
Third Reading —Water Companies (Regulation of Powers) * (87), and passed.

CENTRAL ASIA—RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN —THE NEGOTIATIONS.

  QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARR: I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given him private Notice—Whether the proposal of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the Afghan Frontier question is to be understood as one of mediation or of arbitration—that is, whether it is one inviting the good offices of a friendly Power, or one placing the question at issue in the hands of an irresponsible umpire, whose decision would be final?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, there are one or two Peers on the other side of the House who, I think, have not not such a strong conviction as I have that no one is capable of putting Questions with greater authority or clearness than the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I entirely disagree with you.
  EARL GRANVILLE: Therefore, I do not think it necessary, when the noble Marquess has put a Question one day, that some of his Friends should come to the rescue with another Question on the following day. To make it clear, at the same time I must say that I have nothing to add to what I stated yesterday; but as there is in the Question of the noble Earl something in the nature of censure upon what has been done, I should like to say that what has been done appears to me a very simple and honourable proceeding on the part of the States concerned. In private life I can conceive nothing better than that if two individuals have pressing matters of great practical importance to them-
  1622
  selves, and supposing that a very disagreeable and regrettable incident has occurred which, to a certain degree, affects their honour, and on which they make counter statements and contentions—I think your Lordships will agree with me that it would be better to refer that question to the judgment of some friend in whom they may have perfect confidence to enable the matter to be closed with honour to both sides. That appears to me to be exactly what has been done in this case. The two nations were discussing a question of great importance—namely, the delimitations of the Frontier of Afghanistan—and a regrettable incident occurred which, rightly or wrongly, seems to affect the honour and interest of the parties concerned; and, instead of going to the ultima ratio, I think it is an honourable proceeding on our part to propose that reference should be made to the judgment of the Head of a friendly State, and I think it equally creditable and honourable to Russia that she should have concurred in that offer.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I must decline the office of universal Questioner which the noble Earl would confer on me; and after this competition between my noble Friend (Earl De La Warr) and myself, I confess that he has entirely carried off the palm. But I cannot for a moment attempt any competition with him, for he has got a longer speech out of the noble Earl than I ever succeeded in doing. He has not only done that, but he has obtained a revelation from the noble Earl of the fact which we have never heard before—that there are not only counter contentions but counter statements to be referred to the arbitrator. That throws new light on the matter. The only statements are those of General Komaroff on the one side, and Captain Yate on the other; and it appears that the truth or falsehood of those statements is to be referred to the arbitrator. I am exceedingly obliged to my noble Friend for having extracted that statement.

RAILWAY BRAKES-LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it was their intention to take any steps this

  1623
  Session to make it compulsory upon Railway Companies to adopt efficient brakes in accordance with the regulations of the Board of Trade? He should not, he said, enter into details on this matter, as it had already, on more than one occasion, been discussed in this House. Two years ago, in consequence of the President of the Board of Trade undertaking to introduce a Bill dealing with the matter of brakes, he withdrew a Bill he had brought in dealing with that matter. Since then no steps had been taken by Her Majesty's Government to enforce the recommendations of the Board of Trade, which were accordingly, at the present time, disregarded by some of the most important Railway Companies in the country.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that the answer which he had to give the noble Earl was that the Board of Trade could not undertake to promote any legislation during this Session in regard to railways.

PUBLIC HEALTH—CREMATION.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  The EARL of ONSLOW, in rising to call attention to the erection of a public crematorium at Woking and the cremation of a body there on the 26th March last, and to inquire Whether Her Majesty's Government will carry out their expressed intention of using the powers which they possess in the matter for the discouragement of the practice; and what those powers are? said, that in 1874 the Cremation Society commenced to erect a crematorium at Woking. A Memorial, influentially and largely signed, was sent to the Home Secretary (Sir B. Assheton Cross) as a protest, and he intimated to the Cremation Society that any action on their part would be followed immediately by an attempt to test the legality of their proceedings. The Cremation Society then consented to defer any operations until the pleasure of the Home Secretary was signified. In the following year the present Home Secretary gave a very similar answer. But a case occurred in Wales some months ago, in which a Dr. Price cremated the body of a child, and legal proceedings being instituted against him, Mr. Justice Stephen expressed an opinion which
  1624
  was assumed to be in favour of the legality of cremation; but he laid it down that, even supposing cremation to be legal, it was only legal if so conducted as not to be a nuisance in the neighbourhood. In consequence of this decision a Question was again addressed to the Home Secretary, and he stated that it was still the intention of Her Majesty's Government to use the powers which they possessed in the matter for the discouragement of the practice. Since then the Cremation Society had so far completed their building at Woking that on the 26th of March they duly cremated the body of a lady. At present there were stringent regulations as to the burial of the dead; but inasmuch as the law never contemplated the burning of the dead, there were no laws whatever to regulate cremation. Their Lordships would feel that this was fraught with great danger, for cremation might annihilate all proof of foul play. The Cremation Society had, no doubt, certain regulations drawn up with a view to avoiding this, but these regulations had no binding force, and might be altered or abolished at any time. A Bill was brought in last year which proposed to make cremation a misdemeanour if done without the sanction of the Home Secretary; but it was not passed into law, and consequently there were no regulations whatever. There were 500 acres of ground at Woking devoted to the purposes of a cemetery, and not one-twentieth part of it had been so used, so that there was no necessity for cremation in that place. The inhabitants of Woking had been alarmed at the perfect immunity with which the cremation on March 26 last had been carried out, and still more so at a recent statement of Sir Spencer Wells, in which he intimated that the Society were now satisfied as to their legal position and were ready to receive bodies for cremation. This crematorium was one mile and a-half from any station and seven miles from any large town, and in a rather scattered portion of the parish of Woking, but it was surrounded by large public institutions. The unfortunate clergyman of the parish could see from his windows into the crematorium itself. There were other gentlemen in the neighbourhood to whom it was a great annoyance, and the feeling on

  1625
  the subject in the locality was very-strong indeed. If the Government were anxious to encourage cremation, they had, not far from this place, a large portion of moorland which they might devote to the experiments of the Society. In answer to the Question he put the other day, the noble Earl said that the practice of cremation was so uncommon as not to require any legislation. He believed, however, that the time had now come when the Government ought to make up their minds. The inhabitants of Woking looked with aversion and disgust upon the erection of this crematorium, and they called upon the Home Secretary and Parliament to deliver them from the annoyance. He trusted that the Government would say under what restrictions cremation should be carried on, or give the inhabitants of Woking an opportunity of stating their objections to this crematorium. He begged to ask the Question which stood in his name?
  The EARL of DALHOUSIEsaid, that he did not take any exception to the noble Earl's interesting speech; but, in answer to his Question, should have to repeat, in very much the same language, what he stated the other day, that Her Majesty's Government did not consider it any part of their duty to encourage or discourage the practice of cremation. As to the power which the Government had for dealing with the matter, the noble Earl had himself answered that question when he referred to the judgment given the other day by Mr. Justice Stephen. The Government had no power to interfere, and until the practice became so common as to be obnoxious to the people of this country, and they showed a more general desire to have legislation on the subject, it was not the intention of the Government to deal with it.

  SEA FISHERIES (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to Scottish sea fisheries, and for other purposes relating thereto—Was presented by The Earl of DALHOUSIE; read 1a. (No. 102.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.