Lords Sitting of 4 May 1885

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Fourth Report— Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. [No. 97.]
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Highways * (98).
Report—Water Companies (Regulation of Powers) * (87).
Third Reading— Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Public Health Act) (No.1) * (63), and passed.

CENTRAL ASIA—RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN —THE RUSSO-AFGHAN FRONTIER—THE NEGOTIATIONS.
  FRANCE AND EGYPT—SEIZURE OF THE "BOSPHORE EGYPTIEN"—THE NEGOTIATIONS.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Seeing the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs early in his place, I wish to ask him whether he is able to give any information to the House on two important matters which occupy public attention—namely, the negotiations with respect to the Afghan Frontier, and those with reference to the suppression of The Bosphore Egyptien?
    EARL GRANVILLE: In answer to the noble Marquess I shall give all the

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    information in our power as to the two questions to which he refers. It is as follows:—The Bosphore Egyptien was suppressed by a lawful decree of the Egyptian Government, and the British Government gave its sanction to the act. The French Government, while wholly refraining from questioning the suppression of the newspaper (1) declared the seizure of the paper and closing of the printing office, in which other business was carried on, to be illegal; and (2) complained of the forcible removal of the French Consul, who had attended personally to protest against the closure of the office. The French Government demanded—(1) there-opening of the office; and (2) the punishment of the persons concerned in the act. In the meanwhile, Her Majesty's Government had obtained full Reports from Sir Evelyn Baring as to all the circumstances, and had taken advice as to the legal bearings of the case. The conclusion to which Her Majesty's Government came was, that the closure of the office was not warranted by law, and that the technical force used against the French Consular authorities was, therefore, not justifiable. We, therefore, took note of the declaration of the French Government, that there was no desire to shield The Bosphore Egyptien; that they wholly refrained from raising any question as to the suppression of the newspaper; and, further, that they expressed their readiness to withdraw their demand for the punishment of those who acted tinder the orders of the Egyptian Government. Accordingly we stated that Her Majesty's Government, who do not disclaim responsibility for the decision to suppress the newspaper, were ready to associate themselves with the regret which they have advised the Government of the Khedive to express as to the incidents which have attended the suppression. Her Majesty's Government advised Nubar Pasha to re-open the office, and that his Excellency should visit the French acting Agent and Consul General to convey the expression of his regrets for errors committed in the execution of the lawful decree of the Egyptian Government. With regard to the second Question asked by the noble Marquess, I have to slate that Her Majesty's Government, agreeing with the Government of Russia, that they desire to provide means for any
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    settlement which may be needful, of differences between them arising out of the engagement at Ak Tepe, concur with thorn that they do not desire to see gallant officers on either side put upon their trial. For this purpose they are ready to refer to the judgment of the Sovereign of a friendly State any difference which may be found to exist in regard to the interpretation of the agreement between the two Cabinets of the 16th of March, with a view to the settlement of the matter in a manner consistent with the honour of both States. The two Governments trust that no difficulty will occur as to the details of the reference, and are prepared, tinder these circumstances, to resume at once in London the negotiations on the main points of the line, for the delimitation of the Frontier, the details of which only would be examined and traced on the spot under the conditions agreed on in the Commission. This negotiation, of which it is not possible at present to anticipate the result, will be much facilitated, as regards Her Majesty's Government, by the knowledge they now possess of the views of the Ameer and the full topographical information which has reached the India Office. It is further agreed that the district of Penjdeh shall be neutralized during the negotiations, and the Russian Government have intimated their willingness to consider the question of the Russian outposts being removed on the arrival of the Commissions.
    THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should like to ask the noble Earl a Question or two with regard to the statement he has made. First, when he states that the seizure of the offices of The Bosphore was illegal, does he mean illegal under any International instrument which would give the French Government aright, as against the Egyptian Government, to interfere—that is to say, under what are called the Capitulations; or, does he mean merely illegal under the existing decrees and laws of the Egyptian Government? And, secondly, I wish to know, whether the action of the Egyptian Government in closing The Bosphore was due to the initiative and suggestion of the Representative of Her Majesty's Government, or whether it was taken spontaneously? With respect to the announcement which the noble Earl has made as to the Afghan negotiations, I would ask him what is

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    the meaning of the words "Provide means for any settlement which may be needful of the differences?" What is to be referred, and what will the result of the reference be—will it be the punishment of those who have misconducted themselves, or will it be simply an apology from one Government to another?
    EARL GRANVILLE: I made the statement with regard to The Bosphore as full as I could in order to give the general information to your Lordships' House. At the same time, I do not wish to go into very great detail on either of the points in question, inasmuch as the Papers which will soon be produced will give your Lordships a much fuller knowledge of the circumstances than I could in a statement in answer to Questions. With regard to one of the Questions of the noble Marquess, however, I have no difficulty in giving an answer. The illegality of the seizure of The Bosphore arose out of the rights of the French Government under the Capitulations with regard to the Press. As to the Afghan Question, we have agreed to refer to the judgment of a friendly Power the mode of arriving at a settlement closing the incident, and which shall be honourable to both Parties. I think the noble Marquess will and must see that it is impossible for me in this place to anticipate what the result of that judgment will be.
    THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Then it is a general reference without any special indication of the limits within which the jurisdiction is to be exercised, and a general reference of all matters of difference that have arisen with regard to this Penjdeh incident? I would ask another Question, which arises out of the noble Earl's statement—and which I may observe is merely put for the purpose of elucidation. He stated that the Government would be much guided by their knowledge of the wishes of the Ameer with respect to his own Frontier. Were the Government entirely ignorant of the Ameer's wishes on this point before they began these negotiations—that is to say, until quite recently?
    EARL GRANVILLE: It must be perfectly obvious to the noble Marquess that when there has been an interview of several days between the Viceroy of India and the Ameer we have not only
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    more information, but information on which we can better rely, than that which we previously possessed. With regard to the reference to the judgment of a Sovereign of a friendly State, the text of that reference has not yet been absolutely decided upon; and I think it is quite clear that I had better adhere to the words I have already used, and not go further into details.
    THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Are the Capitulations to which the noble Earl has referred to be printed along with the Papers?
    EARL GRANVILLE: The Papers to be presented are under consideration, and I shall do my best to lay all information before the House.
    LORD ELLENBOROUGH: The noble Earl stated that Russia had evacuated, or would consider the evacuation of, Penjdeh when the labours of the Commission commenced. What does he mean? Does he——
    EARL GRANVILLE: No; the noble Lord has quite misapprehended what I said. I said they had agreed to consider it. I really think that I cannot go further than the statement I have made.

EGYPT (AFFAIRS OF THE SOUDAN)— THE EGYPTIAN FRONTIER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, How soon Her Majesty's Government expect to be able to explain what was the limit to the south in Egypt on the Nile which they have pledged themselves to continue to defend, and from what place on the Nile southwards they hold themselves to have perfect freedom in regard to future action; also, whether Dongola is considered to be in Egypt or the Soudan? The reason why he put the Question was that he wished to obtain some explanation of the two statements made by the noble Earl in reference to the Frontier of Egypt, on the introduction of the Egyptian Loan Bill on the 21st of April—one, in which he stated that no provision was made in the Vote of Credit for offensive operations with a view to an early advance on Khartoum; and the other, in which he stated that the Government preserved to themselves full liberty of action in the matter, seeing that they had not at that

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  moment absolutely made up their minds. On the 19th of February, the Government announced a definite policy to the effect that it was their intention to go to Khartoum. The statement made by the noble Earl on the 21st of April was a completely new departure. Their policy at a previous period was defined as one of "rescue and retire." It now appeared to him (the Earl of Galloway) that it might be more aptly described by the two words "bombast and bolt." He did not wish to go into these matters in detail, but simply to remind the House of some of the facts; and he put the Question for the purpose of protesting against any desertion of any of Her Majesty's faithful allies, such as the Mudir of Dongola and some Native tribes. He also wished to know what was meant by the Frontier of Egypt, and what was the limit on the Nile up to which Her Majesty's Government were still ready to announce that they would hold the country? He would ask whether Dongola was within the Frontier; whether that meant Old Dongola or New Dongola, because there was a considerable distance between them? He hoped the noble Earl would be ready to give a plain and civil answer to a plain and civil Question.
  EARL GRANVILLE: The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Galloway) has asked for a plain and civil answer. I can only say that we shall try to make the matter plain, and I hope to give him a civil answer. Your Lordships will remember that at the last Sitting of the House a Question very much of the same class as this Question was put to me by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Bury), who is not now present; and one of the answers which I gave was that at a previous Sitting of the House the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury), speaking with all the authority that belongs to him, had put a somewhat similar Question to me, which I was obliged to meet with a negative. As I have stated, the noble Viscount is not now here, and I should not only be doing something uncivil to the noble Marquess, but also to the noble Viscount, if I gave the noble Earl a different answer to-night. But be that as it may, I must say that with regard to myself it would not be consistent to do so, reserving the hope that I may be able to make a full statement to the House
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  when the Government are prepared to do so.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that while the noble Earl refused to give any answer to the Question of the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway), he (Viscount Cranbrook) thought the House ought to know whether any guarantee would be given to the friendly tribes of Arabs who had assisted the British troops. The Government had been represented in the Soudan by a most distinguished General, to whom they had given the powers almost of a Plenipotentiary, and he had perpetually held out hopes to the tribes that the English people would never forsake them. So late as the 12th of February last, Lord Wolseley had given it out most distinctly that the English would march to Khartoum and capture it, and that those who had put their trust in the English might be certain they would not be deserted. That was not the first time that he had used language in regard to the protection of the Native tribes. There was some danger that what had happened in the Soudan would happen in North Africa. When they read in the papers that morning that the 1,500 Coolies, for instance, who were taken away from the railway between Suakin and Berber had been returned to that country, it naturally aroused a new interest as to whether that railway was going on, or whether, in consequence of what had happened with respect to Russia, new conditions had been brought into consideration with respect to the Soudan, and the Government were reverting to their former policy. This was a question which deeply interested the English people, because it was one which touched their honour and credit; and it was not to be wondered at that they pressed earnestly for an answer to the Question, whether or no the pledges of Lord Wolseley were to be maintained?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he thought the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cranbrook) would see that the Government having come to the conclusion that they ought not at this moment to go into the question of their general policy in Egypt, it was impossible that he (Earl Granville) should be seduced by Questions such as that of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Galloway) entirely to depart from their resolution; and, therefore, he thought that, while ad-

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  hering to a decision which, might be right or might be wrong, he should not be led into partial accounts of particular points connected with Egypt and the Soudan.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not know whether I have judged correctly, or whether the noble Earl can answer me as to a question of fact with regard to the Suakin-Berber Railway; but I should like to ask him if he can tell me whether that railway has been stopped or not?
  [No reply.]
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWN: Can the noble Earl the Secretary of State for India say whether the railway is going on or not?
  [No reply.]
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: If the noble Marquess will give Notice of the Question I will endeavour to answer it; but the question of the Suakin-Berber Railway is not in my Department.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Are not the Coolies in the noble Earl's Department? If not, what has become of them?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: They have passed from my control now.

THE NEW PUBLIC OFFICES—THE WAR OFFICE AND ADMIRALTY— THE STONE FOR BUILDING.

  QUESTION.
  LORD LAMINGTONasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to make further inquiries with the view of finding a durable stone to build with before commencing with the new public buildings? He believed there was a sandstone which was to be found in the neighbourhood of the Metropolis which was most durable and well fitted for the purpose.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY, in reply, said, he could assure the noble Lord that every attention would be paid to the point to which he had directed attention. He was in communication with the architects at that moment on the subject. Of course, the noble Lord was aware that the main difficulty was that of discovering a stone that would resist the effects of the London atmosphere. The last stone that was used in the erection of public buildings was the Portland stone, and he did not know if it was possible to find a stone that would resist the London atmosphere better than the Portland stone.
  In reply to the EARL of WEMYSS,
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he understood that a model of the buildings was being made, and that the particular plan to which the noble Earl had directed his attention, and in relation to which the model was made, was now in Westminster Hall, as no adequate accommodation could be found for it in any other part of the building. He was not quite sure whether it was completed; but he had given orders for its being pressed forward. As to the general question of the plans, the first Vote for the purpose had passed the House of Commons, and therefore might be considered to pledge the House of Commons in some degree to the plan; but, of course, it was open to the other House to raise the question again.

RAILWAYS—LEVEL CROSSINGS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BRAYEasked, Whether the railway companies in the United Kingdom are under any obligation to Parliament to abolish their level crossings; and, if so, during what period of time; and, if this is not the case, whether the Government intend to take any steps towards prohibiting the construction of level crossings for the future, or to compel the railway companies to gradually reduce the number of such crossings with a view to their total abolition; and, if so, during what period of time this gradual reduction is to extend?
  LORD SUDELEY, in reply, said: All level crossings of public roads are specifically authorized by the special Act which sanctions the construction of the railway. Railway Companies are under no obligation to abolish such level crossings unless the special Act contains a provision to that effect. The Railway Clauses Act, 1863, which applies to all railways authorized since that date, empowers the Board of Trade to require a Company to carry any turnpike or public carriage road over or under the railway by means of an arch or bridge, instead of crossing the same on the level, if it appears to them necessary for the public safety. In addition to this, the Board of Trade have since the year 1859, and in compliance with the Standing Orders, reported to Parliament on all level crossings of public roads proposed in the various Railway Bills. There is,

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  however, no compulsion upon Select Committees to adopt these Reports, and the recommendations of the officers of the Board of Trade are occasionally disregarded, and level crossings which they have objected to are sometimes sanctioned.

TURKEY—THE BOSPHORUS AND DARDANELLES— CONVENTION OF

  PARIS, 1856, AND TREATY OF BERLIN, 1878.—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL, who had a Notice to move an humble Address to the Crown for the Protocols or Treaties by which the authority of the Sublime Porte to admit foreign ships of war into the Dardanelles was regulated, said, that in consequence of the statement of the noble Earl (Earl Granville) he would not proceed that evening with the Motion, which was suggested by the prospects of a war with Russia.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.