SECOND READING. (Hansard, 19 March 1885)

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL),
in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the subject was one of no little difficulty. It was much easier to realize the dangers that arose from the sale of poisons than to devise means for the protection of the public. The present Bill did not profess to provide any complete protection; nor could he say that any amendment of the law, whatever good it might do, would accomplish that object. There had been however, for a long time past a widespread feeling in many quarters that fresh legislation was needed. Many demands had been made on the Government for such legislation, and the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons had addressed them on the subject. Coroners and juries had called the attention of the Home Office to the question. The Home Office had called upon the Privy Council to provide a remedy; hence his appearance in charge of the present Bill. Many of the provisions of the Pharmacy Act, 1868, of the Arsenic Act, and of one or two other Acts, and 1663 also of several Acts relating to Ireland, had been incorporated in the Bill. The Bill took the whole subject of poisons out of the Pharmacy Act, leaving that Act to deal solely with pharmacy properly so-called. It also transferred to the Privy Council certain powers and duties which that Act imposed on the Pharmaceutical Society in England. The Pharmaceutical Society was by that Act empowered to make regulations for the dispensing and sale of poisons by chemists and druggists. But the Society had not seen its way since 1868 to exercise that power. The Bill also imposed on the Privy Council the duty of adding, when necessary, to the list of poisons contained in the Schedules to the Bill, which formed the most important part of it. The power now exercisable by the Pharmaceutical Society, with the consent of the Privy Council, was by the Bill vested in the Privy Council itself. Some of the existing precautions were retained in the Bill, and others were enlarged. The Bill proposed five classes of precautions with respect to the sale of poisons. First, all poisons of every class were to be labelled "Poison," and with the name and address of the seller. Secondly, every seller of poisons of a certain class must be a qualified person—a chemist or druggist, or a qualified medical practitioner. This applied whenever the poison was sold, and whether it had a Government stamp on it or not. Thirdly, as to the purchaser of poisons, a new provision was introduced that poisons of a certain class would not be saleable to young persons under 17 years of age, or to persons unknown to the seller, unless introduced by some person known to him. Fourthly, as to the mode of selling poisons, a record would have to be kept of the sale of poisons of a certain class, and the name and address of the purchaser, and other particulars. And, fifthly, those who dispensed and sold poisons would be subject to regulations made by the Privy Council. All these five precautions would apply to the more virulent, and some only would apply to the less virulent poisons. There was also a special provision with respect to arsenic, which now came under the Arsenic Act. Then there was a clause dealing with substances which were not exactly poisons, but were of a more or less dangerous character. Such substances were to be 1664 labelled not necessarily with the word "Poison," but with words of caution, such as "To be used with caution." That was a useful provision, because the common and indiscriminate use of the word "Poison" might lead to danger. He then came to the Schedules, which were of the essence of the Bill. That which contained the list of poisons had been prepared with great care by the Medical Adviser of the Privy Council Office, who was Medical Officer to the Local Government Board, and who had had the assistance of a distinguished specialist in this subject. This Schedule was divided into three parts, with which the Bill proposed to deal in three different ways. One part contained the less virulent substances; and this part of the Bill was new, as they had never been dealt with by law at all. It related to certain substances of a dangerous character which were in common use in the arts and for domestic purposes—such, for instance, as carbolic acid, which were included under the scientific names in the Schedule. These the provisions of the Bill required to be labelled "Poison," and to have the name and address of the seller printed on the packet. Another class of poisons, of which laudanum might be taken as the type, was only to be saleable by a qualified chemist or druggist, or by a properly qualified medical practitioner; and in any case it was not to be saleable to any young person, or to some others. The sale of another class of poisons, of which prussic acid might be taken as the type, would, in addition to the conditions imposed on other classes of poisons, be subject to the restrictions that the buyer must be known to the seller, or be introduced by someone known to the seller, and that the whole transaction of the sale must be recorded in the manner prescribed in the Schedule. It was not proposed by the Bill to alter the law with regard to the sale of poisons by wholesale otherwise than to require the packets containing them to be labelled with the word "Poison." As to the so-called "patent medicines," which would be more properly termed "proprietary medicines," the restrictions would apply to them, whether sold under the Government stamp or not. The Government stamp conveyed to the mind of the public a meaning which was not accurate—that was to say, some- 1665 thing in the nature of a guarantee for the articles sold; but it implied nothing of the kind—it merely meant that a duty had been paid to the Government; and though it was unfortunate that £120,000 a-year was derived from such a source, he must take the facts as he found them, and deal with them as best he could. The Bill did not mention patent medicines, but put them on the same footing as all other medicines. It was supposed that some of those medicines contained a serious amount of poisonous ingredients—such as opium or laudanum—and the question would be whether the amount used was beneficial, harmless, or dangerous? The Bill left those who sold these medicines to take the risk of their being poisonous. In the event of such medicines proving poisonous, the seller would be subject to the penalties imposed by the Bill. It was clear that a vast majority of the compounds sold under the name of patent medicines could not be poison, otherwise the population of the country must have considerably diminished. No definition of the word "poisonous" had been laid down in the Bill. It was difficult to define the exact meaning of the word. Dr. Johnson had defined poison as "that which destroys or injures life by a small quantity, and by means not obvious to the senses." That was certainly rather a curious definition of the word, and could scarcely be introduced into an Act of Parliament. Should any patent medicines prove to be of a poisonous character they would be thereafter included in the Schedules of the Bill. They threw the responsibility in the interest of the public on the manufacturer and the seller of these compounds to take care that they should be so compounded as not to come within the meaning of "poisons" under the Bill. He did not believe that this or any Bill could provide complete protection of the public against carelessness, crime, and stupidity; but he had great hopes that the Bill would effect a considerable improvement in the law, and would give increased protection. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.

VISCOUNT BARRINGTON
pointed out the advisability of legislating with regard to the wholesale manufacture of wall-paper strongly impregnated with 1666 arsenic. Great complaint had recently been made on that subject.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN
complained that the Bill, although ordered to be printed so long ago as the 9th of the present month, was only placed in the hands of their Lordships yesterday.

§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH
said, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to the fact that phosphorous, one of the most deadly of poisons, was omitted from the Schedule. He should also like to know whether provision would be made to prevent wholesale houses from selling poison by retail to private customers without some special order from the Privy Council or elsewhere?

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, he thought the remarks of the noble Duke were well worthy of consideration; but as to phosphorous, he found that some other poisons, which he had supposed were omitted from the Schedule, were there under their scientific names. The Privy Council would have the power of enlarging the Schedules from time to time. As to the complaint of the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown), he should delay the next stage to whatever date would be suitable.