Lords Sitting of 19 March 1885

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Third Report—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod [No. 49].
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Smoke Nuisance Abatement (Metropolis)*(50).
Second Reading—Poisons (33).

POISONS BILL.—(No. 33.)
(The Lord President.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL),in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the subject was one of no little difficulty. It was much easier to realize the dangers that arose from the sale of poisons than to devise means for the protection of the public. The present Bill did not profess to provide any complete protection; nor could he say that any amendment of the law, whatever good it might do, would accomplish that object. There had been however, for a long time past a widespread feeling in many quarters that fresh legislation was needed. Many demands had been made on the Government for such legislation, and the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons had addressed them on the subject. Coroners and juries had called the attention of the Home Office to the question. The Home Office had called upon the Privy Council to provide a remedy; hence his appearance in charge of the present Bill. Many of the provisions of the Pharmacy Act, 1868, of the Arsenic Act, and of one or two other Acts, and

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also of several Acts relating to Ireland, had been incorporated in the Bill. The Bill took the whole subject of poisons out of the Pharmacy Act, leaving that Act to deal solely with pharmacy properly so-called. It also transferred to the Privy Council certain powers and duties which that Act imposed on the Pharmaceutical Society in England. The Pharmaceutical Society was by that Act empowered to make regulations for the dispensing and sale of poisons by chemists and druggists. But the Society had not seen its way since 1868 to exercise that power. The Bill also imposed on the Privy Council the duty of adding, when necessary, to the list of poisons contained in the Schedules to the Bill, which formed the most important part of it. The power now exercisable by the Pharmaceutical Society, with the consent of the Privy Council, was by the Bill vested in the Privy Council itself. Some of the existing precautions were retained in the Bill, and others were enlarged. The Bill proposed five classes of precautions with respect to the sale of poisons. First, all poisons of every class were to be labelled "Poison," and with the name and address of the seller. Secondly, every seller of poisons of a certain class must be a qualified person—a chemist or druggist, or a qualified medical practitioner. This applied whenever the poison was sold, and whether it had a Government stamp on it or not. Thirdly, as to the purchaser of poisons, a new provision was introduced that poisons of a certain class would not be saleable to young persons under 17 years of age, or to persons unknown to the seller, unless introduced by some person known to him. Fourthly, as to the mode of selling poisons, a record would have to be kept of the sale of poisons of a certain class, and the name and address of the purchaser, and other particulars. And, fifthly, those who dispensed and sold poisons would be subject to regulations made by the Privy Council. All these five precautions would apply to the more virulent, and some only would apply to the less virulent poisons. There was also a special provision with respect to arsenic, which now came under the Arsenic Act. Then there was a clause dealing with substances which were not exactly poisons, but were of a more or less dangerous character. Such substances were to be
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labelled not necessarily with the word "Poison," but with words of caution, such as "To be used with caution." That was a useful provision, because the common and indiscriminate use of the word "Poison" might lead to danger. He then came to the Schedules, which were of the essence of the Bill. That which contained the list of poisons had been prepared with great care by the Medical Adviser of the Privy Council Office, who was Medical Officer to the Local Government Board, and who had had the assistance of a distinguished specialist in this subject. This Schedule was divided into three parts, with which the Bill proposed to deal in three different ways. One part contained the less virulent substances; and this part of the Bill was new, as they had never been dealt with by law at all. It related to certain substances of a dangerous character which were in common use in the arts and for domestic purposes—such, for instance, as carbolic acid, which were included under the scientific names in the Schedule. These the provisions of the Bill required to be labelled "Poison," and to have the name and address of the seller printed on the packet. Another class of poisons, of which laudanum might be taken as the type, was only to be saleable by a qualified chemist or druggist, or by a properly qualified medical practitioner; and in any case it was not to be saleable to any young person, or to some others. The sale of another class of poisons, of which prussic acid might be taken as the type, would, in addition to the conditions imposed on other classes of poisons, be subject to the restrictions that the buyer must be known to the seller, or be introduced by someone known to the seller, and that the whole transaction of the sale must be recorded in the manner prescribed in the Schedule. It was not proposed by the Bill to alter the law with regard to the sale of poisons by wholesale otherwise than to require the packets containing them to be labelled with the word "Poison." As to the so-called "patent medicines," which would be more properly termed "proprietary medicines," the restrictions would apply to them, whether sold under the Government stamp or not. The Government stamp conveyed to the mind of the public a meaning which was not accurate—that was to say, some-

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thing in the nature of a guarantee for the articles sold; but it implied nothing of the kind—it merely meant that a duty had been paid to the Government; and though it was unfortunate that £120,000 a-year was derived from such a source, he must take the facts as he found them, and deal with them as best he could. The Bill did not mention patent medicines, but put them on the same footing as all other medicines. It was supposed that some of those medicines contained a serious amount of poisonous ingredients—such as opium or laudanum—and the question would be whether the amount used was beneficial, harmless, or dangerous? The Bill left those who sold these medicines to take the risk of their being poisonous. In the event of such medicines proving poisonous, the seller would be subject to the penalties imposed by the Bill. It was clear that a vast majority of the compounds sold under the name of patent medicines could not be poison, otherwise the population of the country must have considerably diminished. No definition of the word "poisonous" had been laid down in the Bill. It was difficult to define the exact meaning of the word. Dr. Johnson had defined poison as "that which destroys or injures life by a small quantity, and by means not obvious to the senses." That was certainly rather a curious definition of the word, and could scarcely be introduced into an Act of Parliament. Should any patent medicines prove to be of a poisonous character they would be thereafter included in the Schedules of the Bill. They threw the responsibility in the interest of the public on the manufacturer and the seller of these compounds to take care that they should be so compounded as not to come within the meaning of "poisons" under the Bill. He did not believe that this or any Bill could provide complete protection of the public against carelessness, crime, and stupidity; but he had great hopes that the Bill would effect a considerable improvement in the law, and would give increased protection. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—[The Lord President.)
VISCOUNT BARRINGTONpointed out the advisability of legislating with regard to the wholesale manufacture of wall-paper strongly impregnated with
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arsenic. Great complaint had recently been made on that subject.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNcomplained that the Bill, although ordered to be printed so long ago as the 9th of the present month, was only placed in the hands of their Lordships yesterday.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to the fact that phosphorous, one of the most deadly of poisons, was omitted from the Schedule. He should also like to know whether provision would be made to prevent wholesale houses from selling poison by retail to private customers without some special order from the Privy Council or elsewhere?
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he thought the remarks of the noble Duke were well worthy of consideration; but as to phosphorous, he found that some other poisons, which he had supposed were omitted from the Schedule, were there under their scientific names. The Privy Council would have the power of enlarging the Schedules from time to time. As to the complaint of the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown), he should delay the next stage to whatever date would be suitable.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday the 27th instant.

ARMY—THE ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGES, SANDHURST AND WOOL—WIUH—REPORT OF BOARD OF VISITORS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD,in asking the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether any steps have been taken, or are likely to be taken, to carry out certain recommendations of the Board of Visitors in their report of the year 1884 with respect to the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, and the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich? said, the Board were greatly satisfied with what they found as to Sandhurst—the high discipline, the physique, and the proficiency of the cadets were all that could be desired. The cadets, while working hard, were fit to go anywhere and do anything. There were several recommendations, however, as to minor matters which had not been carried out; and there was one

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  point as to which the Board felt extremely anxious. There was no hospital ward where fever cases, or inflammation of lungs, or such serious diseases could be properly attended to. The medical officers strongly impressed the importance of such provision being made for the sick cadets. As to Woolwich, perhaps, the Report was not so satisfactory. The conduct, discipline, and morale were all excellent, but the Board were struck with the jaded and languid appearance of the cadets. It was felt that Woolwich was not, perhaps, so healthy a residence as Sandhurst, and that might account for the cadets not looking so well, though the official Medical Report was on the whole not unfavourable.
  VISCOUNT BURYurged that the dietary should be improved, and that the present system of the parents of the cadets supplementing the dietary arrangements of the College should be rendered unnecessary by the provision of a generous diet, such as the growing lads were accustomed to at their homes. Where the body and mind were hard at work, and the young men were growing, it was essential that the dietary should be good.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he was sure it would be satisfactory to the House to hear his noble Friend (Viscount Enfield) give so extremely favourable a report of Sandhurst, and also, with a small exception, as to Woolwich. He believed that what his noble Friend had told the House as to both these Establishments was perfectly true. With regard to the recommendations which were made in the Report of the Board of Visitors at Sandhurst, he might say that all the suggestions had either been attended to or were now being carried out. As to the one matter which required the greatest consideration—namely, the hospital wards, authority had been given to fit out such a ward as was referred to. He hoped that would be done after the Easter Vacation. The suggestions of the Board of Visitors with regard to Sandhurst were being carried out, and especially those with respect to hospital wards. The other recommendations respecting smaller matters would also receive attention. As regarded Woolwich, some complaints had been made by the Board of Visitors with respect to the dietary; a change had been made, and different hours for meals had also been
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  adopted. No complaints had come to his notice with regard to the meals at Sandhurst. He trusted that the changes that had been made would be satisfactory.
  VISCOUNT BURYasked whether his noble Friend would take his suggestions into consideration?
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD,on the part of the Board of Visitors, promised that the noble Viscount's remarks should receive their attention. He might say that at Sandhurst they heard no complaints with respect to the diet; but at Woolwich there were complaints, more especially with regard to the hours, and in a certain degree as to the quality of the provisions. The medical officer thought it his duty to bring these complaints under the notice of the Board.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that complaint was made as to the quantity, not the quality, of the provisions—a more generous diet was required.

  ARMY—THE AUXILIARY FORCES. NOTICE.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS,who had a Notice on the Paper to call attention to the want of organization of the Auxiliary Forces, said, that he did not propose to bring the subject forward on that occasion; but, considering the matter of so much importance, he intended to put in a different form—that of a definite Resolution. He proposed after Easter to move—
  "That the present state of the Auxiliary Forces, deficient as they are in the organization and equipment necessary to enable them to take and keep the field, demands the immediate and urgent attention of those who are responsible for their efficiency and the security of the country."
  He would read a telegram which he had just received from a Member of their Lordships' House, than whom no one had done more for the Volunteer Force. The Duke of Westminster telegraphed—
  "Press equipment and organization of Volunteers. Efforts of 26 years should be made of effect, otherwise absolutely useless, and give air of security terribly false, inviting, possibly, heavy disaster."
  He was sure that everyone who was acquainted with the Volunteer Service would endorse the words of the noble Duke.
  VISCOUNT BURYwished to express his pleasure at the fact that the noble Earl intended to bring this subject for-

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  ward in the form of a substantive Motion. His noble Friend would not stand alone in the matter, but would be backed up by the whole Volunteer Force and the whole Military Force of this country.

LAW AND POLICE—STREET NEWSVENDORS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD DE ROS,in rising to ask, Whether any powers exist for the prevention of persons calling out in the public streets sensational matter which may or may not exist in the newspapers which they offer for sale? said, he had no wish to prevent the free and legitimate circulation of news, especially in these very anxious times, but he thought the way in which news was sometimes communicated ought to be put a stop to. At the present time men and boys were constantly going about the streets shouting out, "Another battle!" "Frightful slaughter!" and such like cries. Sometimes the news was true and sometimes it was not; but he thought some steps should be taken to check the nuisance occasioned. Many of the cries were utterly opposed to all the common dictates of humanity. Only a few weeks ago a report arrived of the death of a gallant General Officer who was killed in action. It was only through the considerate intervention of a private friend that this was not communicated to the unfortunate wife of the General through the shouts of the newsvendors in the streets. Without entering into the matter, he might mention the case of a certain Member of their Lordships' House who, on finding that a news-vendor was calling out something that did not appear in the papers, proceeded against the man in the Police Court and had him punished by the magistrate.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he believed there was no Act of Parliament restricting or prohibiting street cries, for the purpose of selling newspapers, and the Home Secretary did not consider that any fresh legislation on the subject was advisable. If newspapers were sold purporting to contain news which they did not contain, that would constitute an indictable offence, and the person selling the papers could be prosecuted for obtaining money by false pretences. He was not, however, aware
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  of the existence of any general provision for preventing news, whether true or false, from being cried in the streets.
  VISCOUNT BURYasked if the noble Earl was quite sure that no Acts of Parliament existed dealing with street cries?
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, that his reply referred only to the announcement of news, whether true or false.

ARMY (RESERVE).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF DUOIE,in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty for a Return of the number of First Class Army Reserve men in each regimental district who have been registered as desirous of civil employment in accordance with General Order 79, of June 1884,"
  said, that some organization was required for bringing these men into contact with employers of labour. It would be a proper supplement to the county regimental system. By means of such a Return as that for which he now moved they would be able to see whether the proportion of men who had placed themselves on the register bore any reasonable proportion to the number of Reserve men belonging to that depot or centre. If the proportion was not a reasonable one, then they might assume that there was some definite reason for the failure of the scheme. In conclusion, he begged to move for the Return of which he had given Notice.
  Address for—
  "Return of the number of First Class Army Reserve men in each regimental district who have been registered as desirous of civil employment in accordance with General Order 79, of June 1884."—(The Earl of Dude.)
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that he had not the slightest objection to giving the Return asked for, and he was glad to take this opportunity of calling attention to facts of considerable importance to the Army and to the country at large. He could not at the present time give the number of men whose names had been entered on the register for civil employment. He was afraid, however, that the number at the end of last year had not been large; in fact, it had been considerably smaller than he had hoped would be the case in comparison with the number of men who had left the Colours. This scheme, however, was

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  entirely a new departure, the order laid down for establishing this register of employment having only been issued last June, and, as in all other professions, it was some time before a measure of this kind became known. He had no reason to suppose that there was any suspicion as to the register; but if it were so, experience would remove this. He proposed to give this Return as accurately as he could up to the end of the present month. He would point out how important it was with regard to an organization such as this that the officers commanding the depot centres should be brought into contact with the employers of labour, great or small. It was impossible to do so without civil co-operation. It would be of enormous use to the Army, and would remove prejudices still lingering in the minds of some with regard to joining the Colours, if there were a tolerable certainty that a man with good character would, on return from the Colours, be nearly sure of obtaining civil employment.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he quite agreed with the noble Earl as to the advantage of some such organization. It was, however, a curious thing that the men themselves had failed to take advantage of the existing arrangement. One of the officers connected with headquarters had told him that in the central register there were extremely few names put down last year on the register as wanting employment. There seemed to be considerable exaggeration as to the number of Reserve men without employment, and he believed that it was the fact that a good Reserve man could always command employment. Of course, all Reserve men were not of equally good character, and the mere fact of being a Reserve man would not obtain a man employment. He thought that it was inadvisable that any exaggeration should be allowed to go abroad as to a number of Reserve men wandering about the country without employment.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMobserved, that in his county there had been only two or three Reserve men last year wishing for employment who had not obtained it.
  THE EARL OF DUCIEsaid, he wished to express his satisfaction with regard to the tone of the discussion which had taken place.
  Motion agreed to.

EGYPT (FINANCE, &c.)—THE INTERNATIONAL ARRANGEMENT.

  RESOLUTION.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH,who had the following Notice on the Paper:—
  "To resolve That considering the loss of life and treasure that has been incurred by thi8 country in Egypt, any arrangements with the Powers, either political or financial, which may tend to impair or diminish the influence of England in the administration of that country, such as the acceptance of any form of loan to the Egyptian Treasury under a joint guarantee of the Powers, would be unacceptable to this House,"
  said, that although they were expecting Papers on the subject, upon which there would be a full discussion in their Lordships' House, it still appeared to him that there were certain features connected with the financial arrangements in regard to Egypt upon which a few preliminary remarks might with advantage be made. The discussion had been too long deferred, and it seemed to him that all they had now to expect was not only a foregone conclusion but an arrangement of a disastrous nature. At the time when the Dual Control had been established, the peculiar circumstances which had arisen in Egypt had rendered it necessary to make some arrangement for the financial condition of Egypt. He thought he might say that, although the Dual Control had been fortuitous in its origin, in the opinion of many persons who understood the subject, it had been extremely successful in many of its objects. Egypt was not a country isolated, like Turkey from European affairs, but one possessing every species of interest and trade of every description. By the abolition of that Dual Control they had alienated France and given a stimulus to Prince Bismarck to adopt a European policy which was likely to bring about considerable difficulties. The late M. Gambetta was a firm believer in an alliance between England and France on Egyptian affairs, and it was at his desire that the Joint Note was addressed to Egypt by those two Powers. That Note meant that England and France were trustees for the arrangement between the European Powers and the Khedive, and that M. Gambetta would put his foot down and maintain that arrangement. But M. Gambetta went out of Office and was suc-

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  ceeded by M. de Freycinet, who reversed the policy of his Predecessor. Things were then allowed to drift until the mutiny of the Egyptian Colonels broke out. Then a Conference was held; and, during the middle of its deliberations, to the astonishment of Europe as well as of the Liberal Party in England, Mr. Gladstone's Government decided to bombard Alexandria. He did not say that that bombardment was not forced upon them; but France refused to join with them in the enterprize which resulted in the battle of Tel-el-Kebir. The abolition of the Dual Control dated from the time when the Khedive, at the instigation of Her Majesty's Government, issued a Decree annulling that Control; and from that moment they alienated the sympathies of the French people, which had hitherto been with them in their operations in Egypt. The French people became fully alive to the mistake made by M. de Freycinet, which they felt practically threw Egypt into the hands of England. They might have been prepared for the abolition of the Dual Control, but they were not prepared to accept the way in which it was effected, still less to accept the doctrine of repudiation which was afterwards proclaimed. He would not dwell on the series of disasters which ended in the betrayal and death of our hero and Envoy. Her Majesty's Government had wasted their treasure and sacrificed the lives of their fellow-countrymen, and they were going to impose enormous burdens on the British taxpayers; and in return they had gained nothing but discredit abroad and the disapproval of the English people. The financial arrangements now contemplated would, he believed, be looked upon as the culmination of that history of disgrace. From the day that they made themselves the patron of the Khedive, both in the eyes of the Mussulman and the European world, they became responsible for the whole administration of Egypt. But it had been the object of Her Majesty's Ministers to hold out to the European Powers that the Khedive was acting on his own initiative, and was not necessarily inspired by the British Government. The policy which allowed matters in the Soudan to drift from the date of the disaster to Hicks Pasha's Army down to the death of General Gordon was the same as that which had allowed affairs
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  in Egypt Proper to drift from the disregard of the claims of the sufferers in Alexandria down to the hopeless surrender of all the positions that they originally took up. If the Government had really understood and recognized the responsibility they were undertaking when they sent Lord Dufferin on his mission to Egypt, they would have instructed him to advise the Khedive to issue some formal Decree or assurance that the foreign bondholders' claims would be met. Their Lordships would remember that during the last two years the Radical Press and Radical orators had expatiated on the rapacity of the bondholders and the unfortunate condition of the fellaheen. But the folly of the Government had been shown in lending a ready ear to the cry of that Party. They were ready to assent to the abolition of the Law of Liquidation. So long as the Dual Control lasted they had the sympathy of the French people, who were prepared to work with them so long as they considered them their co-trustees. Her Majesty's Government were not prepared to go to the logical result which the abolition of the Dual Control involved—they were not prepared to annex Egypt, nor to propose any scheme for remodelling the National Debt of Egypt under the guarantee of the British Government at a reduced rate of interest, thereby relieving the Revenue from the difficulty in which it was placed. Her Majesty's Government said they would not undertake the responsibility of managing the finances of Egypt, but they would try by diplomatic means to induce the Powers to consent to some modified scheme of liquidation. With that view they proposed a Conference; and their Lordships knew what took place during that Conference. Their Lordships were debarred from discussing the question, on the ground that it would be extremely inopportune and inconvenient for them to do so pending its deliberations; and, owing to the late period of the Session, no opportunity afterwards presented itself for raising such a discussion. The Conference came to an untimely end, and nothing could be more instructive than to read the paragraphs of the Protocol indicating what passed between the noble Earl the Foreign Secretary and M. Waddington. If the Government had accepted the method suggested by the First Lord of

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  the Admiralty, they would have been in a better position than that which they now occupied. The character of Lord Northbrook's Report was well known. The Government had stated that Egypt was not able to pay its debts. The Powers thought she could. But it was said that Lord Northbrook advised no reduction of the claims of the bondholders. That view was displeasing to the Government.
  EARL GRANVILLE: May I ask the noble Duke whence he has derived all this intimate knowledge of these affairs?
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, that if the noble Earl had read the public papers, especially The Times, he would see that what he had said was substantially accurate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had yesterday stated that it was proposed that the loan should be subject to an International Guarantee. The right hon. Gentleman said that we had not asked for such a Guarantee, and that no right of interference with our administration was granted thereby to the Powers. He could not understand what the Guarantee meant, unless it meant that we had, immediately after Tel-el-Kebir, taken up a strong position and undertaken to deal with not only the military, but also the political and financial position. But ever since that period we had practically done nothing at all. We had abandoned one position after another. What was the sacrifice asked in the new proposals from the bondholders? It was only 5 per cent reduction for two years, and that was to be paid back if there was a surplus. But that concession only amounted to £200,000 a-year. Was it worth while to make an alteration in the Law of Liquidation for so small an advantage? Then there was to be a suspension of the Sinking Fund. But by good administration, by taxing the notables, and other means, sufficient might be raised to make up that advantage. Notwithstanding all the sacrifices we had made, we should get nothing out of them, and had in the meantime covered ourselves with indelible disgrace. What would be the feeling of our Administrators in Egypt when they saw themselves placed in a subsidiary position to other Powers; what would be the feeling of the English people when they saw their Army of Occupation doing the work of bum-bailiffs
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  —when we were obliged to use the kourbash on people whom the Prime Minister had stated to be overtaxed; what would be the feeling of our soldiers who would have to fight a campaign next autumn, of the British taxpayer, of those who had lost their relatives in that unhappy war, when England woke up and realized that the Government had abandoned every advantage, receded from every position, and landed the country in disgrace, as regarded not only the past but the future also?
  Moved to resolve "That considering the loss of life and treasure that has been incurred by this country in Egypt, any arrangements with the Powers, either political or financial, which may tend to impair or diminish the influence of England in the administration of that country, such as the acceptance of any form of loan to the Egyptian Treasury under a joint guarantee of the Powers, would he unacceptable to this House."—(The Duke of Marlborough.)
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I own that when I came down to this House I did not expect the noble Duke to go on with his Motion. The Motion implies a Vote of Censure, to a certain degree of a hypothetical character. I hope the noble Duke will not think it want of courtesy, or want of appreciation of the ability with which he has stated his own views, that I do not think it desirable that I should give an answer to the noble Duke. At our last meeting the noble Marquess asked how far we had arrived at an agreement with the other Powers on this question. I stated that a preliminary Declaration had been signed on that day, and that we expected to sign the Articles of Convention yesterday. The noble Marquess very properly requested an early distribution of Papers. I met that with the assurance that they should be distributed as soon as possible. I laid some Papers on the Table today. I believe other Papers will be presented almost immediately. The Declaration and Convention will be distributed to your Lordships to-morrow, and other Papers at the end of this week or certainly at the beginning of the next. In these circumstances, I think it is most unusual to proceed with a Vote of Censure on the Government. I do not say it is unfair to myself and my Colleagues, who would have rather an advantage, as we should argue having a knowledge of these Papers, of which your Lordships are perfectly ignorant. I think it

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  unfair to the noble Duke himself, who has made a Motion entirely directed against an International Guarantee of the loan, the proposition contained in which I think I shall be able entirely to controvert. The noble Duke's speech has ranged all over the Egyptian history—what Mr. Gladstone said about the Dual Control, the bombardment of Alexandria, and all the subjects which have been so often discussed. He has said hardly one sentence in regard to the Vote of Censure which he has presented, I rather think, on his own authority. Therefore, I must beg to be excused from discussing his Motion at this moment; but I wish your Lordships to understand that we are most ready to meet the discussion which the noble Marquess has promised shall come on at an early day.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs having announced that the Papers with, reference to Egypt will be distributed at an early date, it is undoubtedly more in accordance with our practice and obviously more convenient that we should not now go fully into the circumstances to which those Papers refer. I, however, understood the noble Duke in the course of his speech to say he did not consider that this was to be a conclusive discussion of the matter, but that he rather wished to dispose of the preliminary chapter of this long and complicated history, with the view of dealing with the precise matter of his Motion on a future occasion. I do not know the views of the noble Duke, but I should not recommend him to press his Motion on the present occasion. It is obviously almost impossible for us to deal with the character of the engagements entered into by the noble Earl till the precise words of them are before us. I do not agree with the noble Earl that the noble Duke has repeated all the charges made against Her Majesty's Government, because in many respects I thought the noble Duke showed greater knowledge of the subject than has been shown before by others, and that he opened up in some respects new fields of discussion, especially in regard to the question how far the attitude of this country towards France has been affected by the policy which Her Majesty's Government have pursued since the Egyptian Question arose. This is a
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  very interesting question, and I believe that although there are very obvious grounds for reticence it has never been dealt with so thoroughly as other parts of the Egyptian Question. But I quite agree with the noble Earl that this and all other matters had better be deferred to a period when we shall have the Papers in our hands and are able to express an opinion upon them. I heard with some dismay—if I may make use of so irregular an observation—that this matter is to be discussed in the other House of Parliament almost immediately. I could have hoped that we should have some time to consider the matter before dealing with it; and I think there is an additional ground for claiming such indulgence on the part of the Government, as it has not been owing to any laches of ours that a discussion did not take place at an earlier period, but rather it was owing to one of the most remarkable scenes in Parliamentary history; and I would invoke the presiding genius of Mr. Goschen to act again on the feelings of Her Majesty's Government and to urge them not to press forward this important and difficult question for discussion at too early a period, as this is one of the most momentous questions which has occupied the attention of Parliament for many years.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH,having asked the noble Earl whether he would place on the Table full details of the Report made by the First Lord of the Admiralty, intimated his willingness to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  SMOKE NUISANCE ABATEMENT (METROPOLIS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Acts for abating the nuisance arising from the smoke of furnaces and fireplaces within the Metropolis—Was presented by The Lord STRATHEDEN and CAMBRELL; read 1a. (No. 50.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.