Lords Sitting of 16 March 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Elections (Hours of Poll)* (43); Educational Endowments (Ireland)* (44).
PRIVATE BILLS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, Whether he could not give a
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  little longer Notice than he now did—some reasonable Notice—of his intention to move forward with Private Bills? At present, Notice was only given to noble Lords on the very morning of the day on which the Motions with regard to Private Bills were to be made, and unless noble Lords happened to read the Notice Papers very carefully they lost the opportunity they might desire of making any remarks they thought necessary. He himself intended to show that some of the provisions of the Vauxhall Water Bill were not in the public interest; but he found on Saturday morning that the Bill had been read a second time.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, that he would take care that a little longer Notice was given.

CENTRAL ASIA—ENGLAND AND RUSSIA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will answer a Question, of which I have given him private Notice, with respect to the very remarkable statement made in "another place" by the Prime Minister as to the state of the negotiations with Russia. It was stated that an agreement had been entered into of which the effect was that neither party should advance their outposts from the positions which they occupy at present—that is to say, that the Russians should not advance beyond where they are now, nor the Afghans advance on their side. There was great doubt in the language used as to the time when that agreement was contracted, and I wish to clear up that doubt, and to ask the noble Lord whether it is an entirely recent agreement, contracted during the last week, or whether it was contracted before that time; and whether he can give us the date of it? There is another and much more important Question—what the duration of that agreement is; how long this undertaking on both sides is to last? The third Question which I put to the noble Earl appears to me the most important of all, and that is, whether the Afghan Government is a party to this agreement entered into with Russia?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, in answer to the noble Marquess, I believe Mr. Gladstone stated that—
  "It has teen agreed between Russia and England that no further advance should be made by the Russian or Afghan forces respectively to points within the debateable or debated ground."
  Mr. Gladstone spoke on the strength of telegrams from the British Ambassador at St. Petersburg, the latest of which was dated March 5. On Saturday, to obviate any possibility of misapprehension, I telegraphed this passage to St. Petersburg, and asked Sir Edward Thornton to ascertain whether M. de Giers agrees that the assurances contained in the telegrams referred to constitute an agreement to the effect stated by Mr. Gladstone. Under these circumstances, I abstain from going further at present into the question.
  THS MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I beg to give Notice that I shall renew the Question to-morrow.

AUSTRALASIAN COLONIES—COLONIAL NAVAL FORCE.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH,in rising to move for Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of any of the Australasian Colonies relative to the formation and maintenance of a Colonial Naval Force, said, he understood that a great deal of Correspondence had passed between the Colonial Office and the Admiralty on this subject. He wished to point out how very essential a Navy was almost to the existence of our Colonies. The Naval Force which we now sent out to the Colonies was totally inadequate at present, and we had done very little indeed towards helping the Colonies to establish a Naval Force of their own. The First Lord of the Admiralty seemed the other night to be under the mistaken impression that he had charged the Admiralty with being hostile to the establishment of a Naval Force in the Colonies. He had not the slightest intention of making any accusation of that kind against the Admiralty; but he did maintain that the effort made by the Colonies in providing themselves with ships did impose on the Admiralty some obligation to meet the natural wishes of the Colonies. The noble Earl the First Lord of the Ad-
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  miralty had, he believed, said that some kind of assistance had been already given to the Colonies, and that several naval officers were already there. He did not want to underrate that assistance; but it had never been definitely stated by the noble Earl, and the information he possessed on the subject had been picked up piecemeal here and there. The Colonies were extremely anxious for their selfdefence, and were more or less waiting for the Admiralty to make some proposal to them. The noble Earl was of opinion that the initiative should come from the Colonies; but for his own part he ventured to think that they had already taken a step in advance, and it was therefore now open to the Government to make some proposal which would lead to the formation of a Colonial Force. It appeared to him that two courses lay open to the Admiralty. They might either send out an experienced officer to organize the whole of the local Marine—and it so happened that an officer who would command the highest respect had been named as quite willing to go out and organize a Naval Force, and if he were to do so it would not be long before there was a Force in existence—or they might name a certain number of officers to serve in the Colonies for a limited number of years, their pay being defrayed by the Colonies and their promotion being allowed to go on in the same way as at present. The latter course would be acceptable to many naval officers who were now in a state of enforced idleness. Looking at the Navy List, he found that there were 70 captains, about 75 commanders, and between 80 and 90 lieutenants at present unemployed. As to the first proposal, there was a precedent for it, as in former days, when the East India Company maintained a Navy of its own, the Admiralty used to send out a distinguished naval officer who had the sole management of the Bombay Marine. What the Colonies now required was a body of trained naval officers to enable them to form a Navy. The Colonies had a certain number of men who might easily be trained to the management of torpedo vessels to be used for the protection of their harbours. Such a torpedo force would be of the greatest value in protecting the local commerce of those Colonies, which amounted to some 10,000,000 tons per annum, and their enormous coast-line.

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  If the noble Earl would take the initiative for the purpose of forming a federation of the Colonies in the matter of defence, he would find the Colonies most ready to receive any suggestion he might make. He urged the Admiralty to place cadetships at the disposal of the Colonies with the object of developing the maritime spirit of the Colonists. In conclusion, he begged to submit the Motion of which he had given Notice.
  Address for—
  "Copies of or extracts from Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of any of the Australasian Colonies relative to the formation and maintenance of a Colonial naval force."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, I have been requested by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) to answer the Questions of the noble Viscount opposite. The noble Viscount asked whether applications had been made by the Australian Colonies of Victoria, Queensland, and South Australia, for advice and assistance as to manning vessels of war. I have to state in reply that such applications have been received, and that they have been in every case freely and fully complied with. I may further say that the Admiralty have received warm thanks from the Agents General for the way in which they have acted in the matter. I can assure the noble Viscount that many officers of merit in Her Majesty's Navy would be glad to go out to the Colonies in the capacity of training officers, and if any applications are made from the Colonies for further assistance your Lordships may be satisfied that the Admiralty will give them every assistance. I can also state that suggestions have been made by the Government as to the general scope of the Naval Force in the Colonies, and much assistance has been rendered by the Construction Department of the Admiralty in the supervision of the ships which have been built for the Colonies. During the last few years there have been constant communications between the Agents General for the Colonies and the Admiralty on the subject, and the Naval Commander-in-Chief in Australia has also been in frequent communication with the Governments of the Colonies in reference to their Naval Forces. In reply to the next Ques-
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  tion of the noble Viscount, I have to state that there have been proposals made by the Admiralty as to a scheme of organization of a Colonial Naval Force; but the Admiralty are of opinion generally that it is not desirable that they should initiate any such scheme, but should leave the Colonies themselves to initiate it. In order, however, to facilitate the initiation of such a scheme, Bear Admiral Tryon, before he left this country as Commander-in-Chief of Her Majesty's vessels in the Australian waters, had communications with my noble Friend the Colonial Secretary and myself, in order that he might be able to lay before the Australian Governments the views of Her Majesty's Government on this matter, which has been very carefully considered by Her Majesty's Government during the last three years. The next Question of the noble Viscount, being based upon the supposition that nothing has been done in the direction it indicated, falls to the ground, inasmuch as the Admiralty have already stated that they will be most happy to assist in every way those Colonies who wish to form a Navy, if their Agents General will be so good as to communicate with them upon the matter; and I now publicly invite such communications to be made to us. As to the Question referring to nominations to cadetships in the Navy, I have to say that a certain number of nominations have been thrown open to the Colonies for many years, and the Colonial young gentlemen are admitted to the Navy upon passing a qualifying examination. These cadetships are annually given on the recommendation of the Colonial Secretary, so that the noble Viscount's suggestion upon this matter has been met by anticipation. With regard to the Motion, I assent to it, with the qualification that such Papers as can properly be given shall be laid on the Table.
  THE EARL OF CAENARVONsaid, that his noble Friend might congratulate himself upon having elicited from the Government a very important statement, and one which was well worthy of the attention of the House, and their Lordships would read the Papers moved for with very great interest, because he understood that many applications had been made, and that they would show what it was that the Colonies wanted

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  and what the Government were willing to do. It seemed to him, however, from the statement of the noble Earl opposite, that the whole burden of initiating a Colonial Naval Force had been thrown upon the Colonies instead of Her Majesty's Government taking it upon themselves. It was in the memory of many Members of that House that some few years ago an Act was passed for the purpose of establishing a Colonial Navy, and it was a question of no small interest why that Act had failed to answer the expectations and intentions of those who desired that it should be passed. That Act had, however, failed to secure that amount of naval discipline which was not only desirable, but absolutely necessary, in a Colonial Force, and to bring it into close connection with the British Navy. One objection was that the Australian Colonies were either unwilling or, at all events, unprepared to accept joint liability for the defence of the Empire. The facts had disproved this, and there could now be no doubt as to what the disposition of the Colonies was. But there was also another objection which claimed great consideration, and that was that Australian ships must never be removed from Australia for Imperial purposes. He was bound to say there was great reason in that objection. His own view, however, was that, first, they should be able to secure that any ship or ships created by Australian expenditure should be maintained on the Australian Coast; and, secondly, that those ships should be brought into connection with the Empire, and, where practicable, interchanged, becoming part and parcel of the Imperial Naval Force. He owned he was disposed to go a step beyond his noble Friend. He thought there would be no harm in arranging that every Australian officer in the Australian Naval Service should directly hold the Queen's commission; secondly, that they should give to the Australian Government or Colony the same number of commissions as would be represented by ships which they established and maintained. These ships should be placed—and he would admit of no compromise on this point—under the direct control of the English Admiralty. Nothing short of this would secure the incorporation which they wished to see effected between the Colonial and Home Naval
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  Forces of this country. Either these Colonial ships whould be maintained on the Colonial station or rendered available and interchangeable in time of extreme peril. It had been his lot to watch the growth of feeling in the Colonies on this subject. In 1878 he made proposals to these great Colonies with regard to incurring joint liability with the Mother Country in various matters, and, among others, in naval matters; and if his proposal had been adopted much of the trouble which had since arisen in the South Pacific would have been prevented. Still later he was Chairman of a Colonial Commission; and there was then much more practical co-operation than before. That was four or five years ago. Since then they had advanced nearer to a common ground. He deprecated the conduct of the Government in not taking the initiative in this matter; and he sincerely trusted that the result of recent communications between the Imperial Government and the Colonies would be to further advance that most desirable of objects—a closer co-operation between those great Colonies and the Mother Country.
  THE EARL OF DERBTsaid, everybody was agreed as to the desirability of the object referred to by the noble Earl. It was the wish of the Colonies as well as that of the Imperial Government. They were also all agreed that it was desirable the Colonies should assist in providing for their own defence; but there would be no disposition on our part to drive a hard bargain. On the contrary, the disposition would be to deal liberally with the Colonies. But he was free to say that he went further than this, and that he agreed with his noble Friend that the time was very auspicious for the consideration of these questions. There was no doubt various circumstances had arisen to develop a stronger feeling of self-defence and desire to co-operate with the other parts of the British Empire than had existed before. He did not, however, think they could bring forward any plan of naval defence until after the creation of a Federal Authority, which should be able to represent and speak in the name of the Australian Colonies collectively. They could not deal with a question of this kind with several divided Authorities. Then his noble Friend said that this was a

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  question as to which the Imperial Government ought to take the initiative, and that the Government ought not to leave the matter to merely local action. The question of securing joint action between the Australian and Imperial Navy was one that had been carefully considered by Her Majesty's Government; and he was able to say that the Admiral who had lately gone out to that station was in possession of a plan carefully prepared and considered by the Admirality in concert with the Colonial Office. He hoped that the result would be to create an arrangement which, whether permanent or not, would, at any rate, meet the necessities of the time. He was unable at a moment's notice to pronounce any opinion upon the plan sketched out by the noble Earl opposite; but, to show that the subject was not one easy to dispose of, he might point out, on the one hand, that the Colonies had a right to ask that the funds locally raised, should be expended for the purpose of local defence; while, on the other, it was obvious that local defence could not be effectually provided unless it was dealt with as part of a general plan. How to reconcile these apparently conflicting requirements was the problem to be solved. It would be much simplified when they got a Federal Authority to speak in the name of all these Colonies; in the meanwhile, he could only assure their Lordships that the matter was not neglected, and that Her Majesty's Government were making overtures on the subject, and that Papers on the matter would be laid on the Table without unnecessary delay.
  Motion agreed to.

EGYPT (THE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE) —ARMY CHAPLAINS IN THE SOUDAN.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON,in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return of the number of the chaplains attached to Her Majesty's forces in the Soudan, and the distribution of them,"
  said, he had noticed that Army chaplains had not been present with the Soudan Expedition; but he was sure there was no wish on their part to be absent from any place where their services might be required. He perfectly understood that the distribution of both
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  combatants and non-combatants must be left to the discretion of the General in command, and he was also aware that no General desired to attach to his Force any more non-combatants than necessary. Still, it must not be forgotten that the ministrations of the chaplains to the wounded, the sick, and the dying were just as essential as the medicines served out from the ambulance tent. If the chaplains were absent from the front, he was sure it was from no wish of their own. The post of the chaplains was naturally that of duty and danger, and they wished nothing better than to accompany the officers whom it was their business to attend. The noble Earl concluded by making his Motion.
  Address for—
  "Return of the number of the chaplains attached to Her Majesty's forces in the Soudan, and the distribution of them."—(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that he had not the slightest objection to grant the Return asked for. He could tell the noble Earl the number of chaplains now in Egypt and the Soudan. There were now in Egypt, independently of those at Alexandria, Cairo, and other points on the Lower Nile, 12 Army chaplains; of these five were Church of England, three Roman Catholic, two Presbyterian, and two Wesleyan. At Suakin the number of chaplains was as follows:—Two Church of England, two Roman Catholic, one Presbyterian, and one Wesleyan. As regarded the distribution of the chaplains, there was such a constant change going on that he was unable to give their present distribution. There was no wish that the chaplains should be kept away from the front or wherever their duty called them, and he was quite certain that it would be the earnest wish of the chaplains themselves to be present wherever required, no matter what the danger might be. As his noble Friend had stated, the distribution of the chaplains rested with the General commanding the troops, and he could only say that the Authorities at headquarters were most anxious that the services of the chaplains to administer the consolations of religion to the wounded and the dying should be available whenever required.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, that it must have been noticed

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  that the funerals of some of the most eminent persons who had been unfortunately killed in the Soudan had been performed by laymen—it might be presumed, because no clergy were at hand He had also seen letters speaking of the want of chaplains to attend to the sick and dying at the front. The chaplains had no duty on foreign service with an Army more important than attendance on the wounded, the sick, and the dying; and those who had gone to Egypt earnestly desired to exercise their ministrations to the utmost and not to be kept safe. He might add that chaplains had often proved useful on other occasions, as well as in attending the sick and dying. The responsibility of the distribution of the chaplains, he was well aware, must rest with the General in command; but it seemed to him that to forbid the chaplains to carry out their special work—that of attending the wounded—would be the same thing as the sanitary authority of a town in which cholera prevailed, forbidding the clergy from exerting themselves for the relief of the sufferers, at the very time when they were most able and most anxious to be of service. The chaplains were few in number, and, few as they were, their services were most important, and the men devoted to their work.
  Motion agreed to.

EGYPT (WAR IN THE SOUDAN)— COLONIES (MILITARY SERVICE).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS,in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty humbly thanking Her Majesty for having graciously accepted the loyal offer of military service from New South Wales; and expressing the satisfaction with which this House has heard the announcement that the like loyal offers of military service from other Colonies, and also from India, will, should occasion arise, be duly accepted,"
  said, that his Motion appeared to be a natural supplement to what had already been said in the House that evening with reference to a Colonial Navy. Happily for their Lordships, he was incapable of lengthened speech; but, happily for himself, he believed the Motion to be one that would commend itself to the favourable consideration of their Lordships. Amid the innumerable troubles that had recently come
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  upon them they could, at least, look with pride and satisfaction at the general conduct of their Army in the field, and at the courage, the discipline, the endurance and dash of their troops under the most trying circumstances. They could also look with pride at the enthusiasm with which all ranks and all conditions of their soldiers had left for the seat of war, accompanied by the cheers of a sympathetic people. But if there was one thing at the present time more than another which was a just cause for national pride and satisfaction, it was the love for the Mother Country shown by their great Colonies in their hearty, loyal offers of military service in the Soudan. There was a section—happily, but a small section—of politicians, un-represented, he was confident, in their Lordships' House, who held that England would be happier and more prosperous if shorn of her Colonies, and even if deprived of her Indian Empire. As regarded their Indian Empire, the answer to those who would wish to see India separated from the Empire was given in the hearty offers of assistance which had come from the Native Indian Princes, and the ready services of the Indian troops in the Soudan; and within the last few days the Prime Minister himself had stated that, however disunited England might be on other questions, she was united in her determination that India, the Koh-i-Noor of the British Crown, should not be struck from off it. But as regarded the separation of the Colonies from England, there had never been a time in their history when the ties between them and the Mother Country had been so strong and so hearty as at the present time. Why, what had they seen lately? A League for the federation of the Colonies had been formed in this country, at the head of which was Mr. Forster, and of which his noble Friend the most recent addition to the Government (the Earl of Rosebery) was a distinguished member. The object of this League was to draw closer the ties and means of defence as between the Colonies and the Empire. This question of the federation of the Colonies was one upon which there was considerable difference of opinion as to how it should be effected; and as in the few remarks he intended to make he did not wish to enter into any controversial question, he would

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  not discuss the best form of federation. There was, however, nothing which could contribute more to the strength of the Empire than a defensive union of the Colonies with the Mother Country. The dream of his life had been to see his country strong. He wished to see England strong, not that she might go hectoring, bullying, blustering through the world, unnecessarily seizing unoccupied territory, or treading on the susceptibilities of other nations. He wished to see England strong, because he wished that Empire which had been handed down by those who had gone before them to be transmitted, unimpaired, to those who were to come after them. Especially did he wish to see England strong in the interests of peace, because he thought that nothing would contribute more to the peace of the world than the knowledge that England was united and strong. And, as he had said, if there was one thing more than another which would make their Empire strong, it was a defensive union between the Colonies and the Mother Country—the good of all being the care of each, and the good of each the care of all. Nothing could strengthen the hands of a Foreign Minister more than the knowledge that any foreign country would have to deal not simply with these little storm-beaten Islands in a Northern Sea, but would be face to face with an Empire, or rather a congeries of Empires, scattered over the whole habitable world. The Colonies by their action had in a great measure solved the question of federation. If he was rightly informed, Members of the Cabinet had been in communication with the Agents General of the Colonies for the purpose of discussing the question of mutual defences; and little more was necessary in the matter of federation than the systematizing in the future what had now been done. But, be that as it might, he held that the offers made by the Colonies formed a great event in our history. No doubt, the Colonies had on previous occasions come forward with offers of assistance, one instance of which was commemorated in the name of what had formerly been the 100th Regiment, now the Royal Canadians. They had heard, too, how the Australian Colonies had offered naval help; but this was the first time that such offers had taken so concrete a form. It was an
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  event pregnant with a great and untold future. Seeing, then, the unanimity throughout this country in appreciating the action of the Colonies in this matter, he thought it was desirable that their Lordships' House should give expression to this universal national sentiment, and that there should be some record on their Journals fuller than the casual reference made to the subject in the debate on calling out of the Reserves. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would now unanimously agree—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty humbly thanking Her Majesty for having graciously accepted the loyal offer of military service from New South Wales; and expressing the satisfaction with which this House has heard the announcement that the like loyal offers of military service from other Colonies, and also from India, will, should occasion arise, be duly accepted."
  And when they remembered the gracious words addressed by Her Majesty to the Colonies with reference to this matter, they had the satisfaction of knowing that in carrying such an Address to the Queen they would be acting in unison with the sentiments of their Sovereign.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty humbly thanking Her Majesty for having graciously accepted the loyal offer of military service from New South Wales; and expressing the satisfaction with which this House has heard the announcement that the like loyal offers of military service from other Colonies, and also from India, will, should occasion arise, be duly accepted."—(The Earl of Wemyss.)
  LORD NORTONsaid, that he yielded to none in high appreciation of the loyal offers of military co-operation on the part of the Colonies; but he thought that it would be a poor compliment to such revived loyalty to treat it as something new. By doing so they could only show how soon they would forget such loyalty, and that they had already forgotten that the same loyalty enlisted Colonists a century ago to fight by the side of British troops against great French Armies in America, and even to acquire fresh territories for the Crown—by troops entirely equipped and paid for by themselves, as much as our own were. He believed the Australians would take it as an affront if this House or Her Majesty were in any way to thank them for the military services which they now offered, as if it were a contribution from allies, and not from fellow-subjects. It was in that spirit they had made the

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  offer, and the enlistment was made in the desire to be part of the Imperial Army, and their pride was now to fight side by side with fellow-subjects in the Soudan. That was a much better kind of Imperial inter-community than any of the vague and impracticable notions that had been thrown out lately about Imperial federation. The relationship between this country and her Colonies had gone down to zero, and was becoming little better than that of Imperial patronage and Colonial dependency. A few years ago we had been taxed at home to the amount of £4,000,000 a-year for Colonial Military Expenditure, to which the Colonies had contributed not a shilling, either for local or general defence. This sort of connection by patronage must have soon gone on from degradation to separation. But this event showed a return of healthier relations, which alone could make connection permanent, relations in which they all alike shared in the burdens as well as privileges of citizenship. Wars were called Imperial, as if the Colonies were not part of the Empire. But they wished to be so. Peace and war were in the breast of the common Sovereign only checked by refusal of Supplies. Their Lordships knew as little of the meaning and intention of the present war as the Australians themselves. They could refuse Supplies, as the House of Commons might, towards it, but in the spirit of common citizenship they had nobly voted them, and the Crown might thank them, as well as the House of Commons. The interests of world-wide commerce were the originating cause of this present war, equally affecting all the British Empire. He wished the Colonial Defence Act of 1865 had more largely drawn out Colonial Naval Service to Her Majesty, as ships of war were furnished a century ago by the Colonies to George III. He cordially joined in the satisfaction expressed in the Motion, but would add a hope that the offered services might not be so soon forgotten as similar former services had been, and that they might take them as services rendered to the Crown in common with those of Her Majesty's subjects at home.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he hoped that it would be understood that on both sides and in every quarter of the House the Motion made by his noble Friend on
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  the Cross Benches was accepted with enthusiasm. That was a Motion which ought to be passed with entire unanimity; and they would only be expressing the feelings of all classes of the community when they gave expression to the sentiments of pleasure to which his noble Friend had referred. He could not but feel somewhat sorry that his noble Friend had thought it right to diverge from the main subject on which they were all agreed to that of the question of a federation of the Empire which his noble Friend behind him had taken up. For himself, he believed that the federation of the Empire was a fait accompli now; that what they now witnessed was really the habitual feeling on the part of the Colonies; and that whenever any danger arose to England that sentiment would always come to the front, and would animate all their English-speaking Colonies. He confessed that he was sorry that the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Office did not accept the services of all the Colonies in a somewhat different manner. It would have made all the difference in the world if all the offers from all the Colonies had been accepted, and if they had been informed that it was merely a question of military expediency when those offers should be made to take effect.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSexplained that though he had made a passing allusion to the Federation League he had carefully advoided going into that question at all.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Viscount who spoke last (Viscount Bury) that this is a Motion which it is eminently desirable that we should assent to with absolute unanimity, and without the introduction of any controversial matter. It is a Motion to which the Members of the Government can entertain no objection, because it is one approving of the course which they have thought it right to advise Her Majesty to take; and for that very reason it is obviously a Motion which we could not have initiated, its chief importance arising from its being the expression of an entirely independent feeling on the part of the Members of this House. If the Motion had been likely to lead to any discussion of a controversial character, I certainly should not have advised or encouraged the noble Earl on the Cross Benches

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  (the Earl of Wemyss) to bring it forward, and I think that he himself would have been actuated by the same feeling. Although the Motion is in its terms an expression of approval of the course taken by the Government, I consider that the compliment involved in it to be only in form addressed to us, and to be really intended, as we all understand, for those Colonies whose patriotic and public-spirited offers we are anxious to recognize. We have only had to accept those offers; we have done it willingly, and we have in both Houses of Parliament endeavoured—I myself in your Lordships' House, and the First Lord of the Treasury in the other House in far more eloquent language than any I could command—to give expression to what I believe is the unanimous feeling of every Party and every class in this country—namely, our cordial gratitude for, and admiration of, this display of loyalty and public spirit. This Motion only confirms and emphasizes the language held on the part of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl touched very lightly on an expression of regret that somewhat different answers were sent to different Colonies. On a former occasion I explained—and I would explain it again if it were necessary—that that difference in the answers arose simply from the different conditions on which the various offers were made. I do not think it is necessary that I should refer now to what the noble Earl on the Cross Benches said as to the existence of a school whose object is to get rid of the Colonies. I have heard a great deal of denunciation of that school; but having sat for a considerable time in this and in the other House of Parliament and watched the course of opinion on the question, I cannot remember to have heard that sentiment expressed by any person of the slightest importance or consideration. What I know many people did say 30 years ago was that if the more important Colonies which had obtained free institutions should show themselves, as many persons expected they would, unwilling to remain in the Empire, it would not be our duty or our interest to retain them by force; but I never heard anyone in this or the other House of Parliament contend that it was our duty or our interest to turn out
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  of the Empire Colonies which desired to remain connected with it of their own free will. We have seen that the effect of the grant of those free institutions and of leaving those Colonies to manage their own local affairs in their own way has not been, as some predicted it would be, to weaken, but rather to strengthen, the ties between the Colonies and the Mother Country; and I do not believe that there was ever a time when they were more closely connected with or more warmly attached to the Empire than they are at this moment. Neither shall I go into the very interesting and difficult question of federation to which the noble Lord opposite (Lord Norton) alluded. Federation is a word of many meanings, which is used by different speakers in different senses. We have proof of that in what we have heard this evening; and no one who has paid any attention to what has occurred at public meetings can fail to have noticed that when men express their wish for federation on the one hand, or their disbelief in federation on the other, they are talking of quite diffferent things, and that they have no one definite plan before them. If federation means only a voluntary co-operation for purposes of defence—which is the interpretation put on it by the noble Lord opposite—then I agree with him that we have it now, and I hope that we may have it for long. If, on the other hand, it means a system of federal union founded on fixed and settled rules such as those which exist in the case of the United States of America, then I think that we had better wait to discuss propositions of that kind until we have them before us in some practical shape. Expressing my own personal and individual opinion, I do not think that that will be very soon. I will not go into the subject; but an obvious difficulty in the way of any scheme of formal federation lies in the immense disproportion between the number of inhabitants of the British Islands and the number in the Colonies. In these Islands you have a population of some 35,000,000 or 36,000,000, whereas there are only 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 in all the English-speaking Colonies; and if you form an Imperial Council, call it by what name you please, and if in that Council every part of the Empire is to be represented in proportion to its popu-

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  lation and its importance, the result would be that the Representatives of the British Islands would carry everything their own way, and the Colonists, even if they were united to a man, would be absolutely outvoted and absolutely powerless. If, therefore, such a Body had powers of taxation, I do not say that you would altogether have a system of taxation without representation; but you would have what was practically very nearly the same thing. And, further, with reference to some of the proposals which have been made, with a view of bringing about federation, it is obvious that they could not be carried out without introducing changes in the Constitution as regards the relations between the Executive and the Legislature far wider than any which have yet been attempted in this country. But let me add one proviso. It ought not to be considered that those who do not see their way to any plan of federation are, on that account, indifferent to the extreme importance of consolidating, as far as may be, the various parts of the Empire. But, returning to what is immediately before us, I do not think I ought to sit down without mentioning what more properly belongs to the Department of my noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley)—namely, the loyal assistance which has been offered by several of the Native Princes of India. Such expressions of loyalty and good feeling, on the part of persons situated as they are, are of the highest possible importance, and not merely as a matter of sentiment, but of practical service. I anticipate that your Lordships will, without opposition, accept the Motion of the noble Earl; and when the news is telegraphed out, as it will be, to those distant Provinces which are most concerned, I have no doubt that the mark of respect and gratitude which you have paid to the Colonists will be received by them in the same spirit in which it is offered.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I only rise to confirm the statement of the noble Earl, that, as far as I know, the assent to this Motion is unanimous in every portion of the House. I shall not travel into any of the adventitious and somewhat controversial matters which have gathered round this Motion, and which, I think, were unnecessary to its discussion. I shall not even attempt to
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  emulate the feat of the noble Earl opposite of arguing against a plan which he himself acknowledged was not in existence. All I think it necessary to say is that there has been very strong feeling in this country in response to the exhibition of affectionate sympathy which has reached us from the Colonies; that there is no subject on which this country feels so strongly as their desire that cordial relations of amity and goodwill should exist between them and those of their own race in other parts of Her Majesty's Dominions. That feeling has been eminently gratified by the exhibition of loyalty and patriotism which the Colonists have shown. We are very grateful to the Native Princes of India, as the noble Earl has said, for having also exhibited their affection for the Empire under which they have so long been protected, and to the people who have done their utmost to maintain their interests and promote their welfare. But, of course, we feel still more strongly such indications of good feeling when they come from our own blood—from those who have so lately quitted our own shores. I think the feeling is universal that in acting as they have done the Colonists have shown that they are true Englishmen, and have behaved in a manner worthy of the race from which they have sprung, and the splendid Empire of which they form so important a factor.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSwished to make it clear to their Lordships that he had put the Motion down without consulting any Member of their Lordships' House.
  Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.
  Ordered, That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

EAST INDIA EXPENSES (MILITARY EXPEDITION TO THE SOUDAN).

  RESOLUTION.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY,in rising to move—
  "That Her Majesty having directed a military expedition of Her native forces charged upon the revenues of India to be despatched for service in the Soudan and Nubia, this House consents that the ordinary pay of such troops as well as the ordinary charges of any vessels belonging to the Government of India that may be employed in the expedition, which would have been charged upon the revenues of India if such troops or vessels had remained in

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  that country or seas adjacent, shall continue to be so chargeable; Provided that, if it shall become necessary to replace the troops or vessels so withdrawn by other vessels or native forces, the expense of raising, maintaining, and providing such vessels or forces shall be repaid out of any moneys which may be provided by Parliament for the purposes of the said expedition,"
  said: Your Lordships are, no doubt, aware that the small Contingent of Indian troops which has proceeded to Suakin consists practically of three regiments of Infantry and a regiment of Cavalry. That measure was taken at the request of Lord Wolseley, and the reason why we have now to move this Resolution is to be found in the 5th section of the Act "for the Better Government of India," 1858, which requires the consent of both Houses of Parliament before Indian troops can be employed for any other purpose than to prevent or repel actual invasion. The other House has passed a Resolution similar to that which I am about to propose. It has been necessary for us to consider which precedent on this subject we are to follow. The first occasion was that of the war in China in 1839–40. In that case all the ordinary charges were borne by the Government of India, and the extraordinary charges by this country. Then came the war with Persia in 1856, in which the ordinary expenses were borne by the Indian Exchequer, and the extraordinary divided equally between the Indian and the English Exchequers. In the next case—that of the Abyssinian War, which precedent we have followed on this occasion—the whole ordinary charges were borne by India, and the extraordinary by England. In the Expedition to Malta in 1878 the whole of the expenses, ordinary and extraordinary, were borne by the British Exchequer. In the last case—the Expedition to Egypt—the whole of the ordinary expenses were borne by India, and the extraordinary charges were divided between India and this country in the proportion of six to four, India contributing the larger share. The exact effect of following the Abyssinian precedent is that India will stand exactly in the same position as if the troops had never left her shores. England undertakes all the extraordinary expenditure, direct and indirect, so that if it were necessary to replace any of these
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  Forces the expense would fall upon this country. In the case of the war in Abyssinia, I confess I am not able to see what special interest India had; but there is no question that Egypt is a country in which India has a special interest, and the war in the Soudan has arisen directly from the necessity of protecting Egypt. I will merely mention that we have every confidence that, in this as in every other service which they may be called upon to undertake, the Indian troops will well and faithfully and nobly discharge their duty. The regiments which are being sent are all well known. They are the 17th Bengal Infantry, the gallant Sikh Regiment, the 28th Regiment of the Bombay Army, of which General Hardinge speaks in the highest terms, and also the regiment of Bengal Cavalry, the 9th, called Hodson's Horse. Neither is the Madras Army without representation, for it has sent 150 Sappers, who have a high reputation. Although the force is small, there is every reason to suppose that it will be able to render most important and valuable service to the Suakin Expedition.
  Moved to resolve—
  "That Her Majesty having directed a military expedition of Her native forces charged upon the revenues of India to be despatched for service in the Soudan and Nubia, this House consents that the ordinary pay of such troops as well as the ordinary charges of any vessels belonging to the Government of India that may be employed in the expedition, which would have been charged upon the revenues of India if such troops or vessels had remained in that country or seas adjacent, shall continue to be so chargeable: Provided that, if it shall become necessary to replace the troops or vessels so withdrawn by other vessels or native forces, the expense of raising, maintaining, and providing such vessels or forces shall be repaid out of any moneys which may be provided by Parliament for the purposes of the said expedition."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALAsaid, it appeared to him that the proposed arrangement was eminently just and fair. Those who advised the Government of India to reduce the Indian Army below the strength which the most experienced officers considered necessary for its defence relied on being able to demand immediate assistance from England on any danger arising in India; and it was only just and fair that India should return that assistance when necessary.
  Motion agreed to.

  EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to reorganise the educational endowments of Ireland—Was presented, by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 44.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.