Lords Sitting of 3 March 1885

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEES—Standing Orders; Selection, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading—Prevention of Crimes Amendment * (20).

EGYPT (WAR IN THE SOUDAN)—THE NATIVE INDIAN PRINCES.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether it was true, as stated in the papers, that some of the Native Indian States had offered assistance in aid of the Expedition to the Soudan; and, if so, whether he would give the names of such States?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble Friend, for giving me the opportunity of stating the names of the Native Indian States which up to this time, as I am informed by telegram from the Viceroy, have made otters of military assistance to this country. They are the States of the Nizam of Hyderabad, the Begum of Bhopal, the Rajah of Puttiala, and the Rajah of Jheend. The first two States are Mahommedans and the last two are Sikhs. I need scarcely say that this offer on the part of the Native States of India is a most gratifying proof of their loyalty and good feeling towards Her Majesty and the people of England. I cannot conceive anything more striking than the fact of these States coming forward on this occasion and showing the same eagerness to assist us, and the same good feeling towards this country, as has been shown by men of our own race in our Colonies. Whether it will be possible or not to avail ourselves of these offers I do not know; but of this I am quite certain—that the recollection of them will strengthen our position in India, as well as the ties which bind us to those Native States.

CENTRAL ASIA—RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Earl the

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Leader of the House a Question of which I have given him private Notice—namely, Whether he has any intelligence from Sir Peter Lumsden as to the present position of the Russian outposts with respect to the Afghan Border; and whether he has any reason to expect an early advance of those outposts?
EARL GRANVILLE: I am not surprised at the Question of the noble Marquess, because the subject is one of the very greatest importance. According to the latest Reports received from Sir Peter Lumsden, the Russian outposts have occupied the Zulfikar Pass, about 20 miles to the South of Pul-i-Khatun, Akrobat, between Zulfikar and the River Khushk, and Sari-Yazi. A post of Yulatan Turcomans has also been stationed at Pul-i-Khisti, a few miles North of Penjdeh, byOolonel Alikhanoff, who, after placing them, has retired, presumably to Sari-Yazi. Representations are being made to the Russian Government earnestly pressing them to give stringent orders to their Military Commanders to refrain from any further forward movements which would bring about a collision between the Afghan and Russian outposts. The Russian Government, in reply to a remonstrance from Her Majesty's Government, declined on the 24th instant to withdraw from their advanced posts at Sari-Yazi and the Zulfikar Pass, but gave assurances that their officers had been ordered carefully to avoid conflicts with the Afghans, and that complications were only to be feared in the event of the Afghans attacking the Russian posts. Sir Peter Lumsden, who has exerted himself to prevent any collision, has advised the Afghans to maintain themselves in the positions now occupied by them. This advice has been approved by Her Majesty's Government; and he has been instructed to urge them, at the same time, not to advance beyond their present positions. Negotiations are proceeding with the Russian Government.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Are these places named by the noble Earl as occupied by Russian outposts within, or are they outside what is accepted by England as the Afghan boundary?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The noble Marquess will see that the ques-
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tion of the precise boundary is exactly the question concerning which negotiations are going on. It is therefore impossible for me, while the negotiations are going on, to say what are the precise limits of the Afghan boundaries; but I have no hesitation in saying that these places are within those portions of the territory which Her Majesty's Government have regarded as within the Afghan boundaries.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I will only ask if there is a possibility of Papers being laid upon the Table?
EARL GRANVILLEreplied in the affirmative.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: Are we to understand that there has been a considerable advance of the Russians in the direction of Herat?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: If the noble Lord will look at the map he will see that there has been a very considerable advance in the direction of Herat.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: May I ask whether the best map that is available will be placed in the House for the convenience of noble Lords? The intimation made by the noble Earl is very important, and it would be very interesting to know the exact localities which the movement affects.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I will inquire and see what can be done in order to meet the wishes of your Lordships.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Are we to understand that the whole question of peace or war between Russia and Afghanistan, and therefore between England and Russia, depends upon a chance squabble between Afghan and Russian outposts?
EARL GRANVILLE: I must ask the noble Marquess to form his own opinion on this matter.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—MILITIA TRAINING.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked the Under Secretary of State for "War, Whether the orders fixing the dates for Militia training could not in future be issued earlier in each year?
THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he quite agreed that the notice should be sent out not later than the end of January. He should take care that that was done.

EGYPT—THE WAR IN THE SOUDAN—KASSALA.—QUESTION.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: I beg to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for War, How it is proposed to relieve the garrison of Kassala? I believe the garrison is short of ammunition and of food.
EARL GRANVILLE: It is impossible to relieve this garrison, except through the agency of the friendly tribes. Colonel Chermside has been communicated with on this matter. It is outside the scope of our military operations.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: I thought it was understood that it would be relieved from Abyssinia.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is there any news as to a further advance of Italians from Massowah?
EARL GEANVILLE: There is no news.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Appointed: The Lords following, with, the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

D. Somerset.

L. Clinton.

M. Winchester.

L. Saye and Sele.

M. Bath.

L. Balfour of Burley.

Ld. Steward.

L. Colville of Culross.

E. Devon.

L. Boyle.

E. Carnarvon.

L. Monson.

E. Cadogan.

L. Digby.

E. Belmore.

L. Carrington.

E. Chichester.

L. Hopetoun.

E. Powis.

L. Foxford.

E. Verulam.

L. Colchester.

E. Morley.

L. Silchester.

E. Amherst.

L. De Tabley.

E. Camperdown.

L. Sudeley.

E. Lathom.

L. Belper.

V. Hawarden.

L. Hartismere.

V. Hutchinson.

L. Penrhyn.

V. Hardinge.

L. Wolverton.

V. Eversley.

PRIVATE BILLS.
All Petitions relating to Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Standing Orders Committee unless otherwise ordered.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
The Lords following; viz.,

E. Morley.

L. Colville of Culross.

E. Lathom.

L. Boyle.

were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.