Lords Sitting of 19 June 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Heading—Commons Regulation (Ashdown Forest) Provisional Order٭ (141); Commons Regulation (Drumburgh) Provisional Order٭ (142); Commons Inclosure (Llanybyther) Provisional Order٭ (143); Local Government (Gas) Provisional Orders٭ (144); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Labourers Act) (No. 4) ٭ (145); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2)٭ (146); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4)٭ (147); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order٭ (148); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 1) ٭ (149); Archdeaconries ٭ (150).
Second Heading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Princess Beatrice's Annuity (138) and passed.
Committee—Report—Burial Boards (Contested Elections) ٭ (105).
Third Reading—Gas Provisional Orders (No. 1)٭ (108), and passed.

PARLIAMENT—ADJOURNMENT—RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS—STATEMENT OF THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise merely to ask tin noble Earl opposite whether he will consent to another adjournment of the House until Tuesday? The communications which have been going on have not yet reached a position which will

1593
enable either side of the House to make a statement; and it will be more convenient, therefore, in my opinion, and also probably in that of the noble Earl opposite, as well as for the interest of Public Business, that we should adjourn until Tuesday. I wish to make just one observation with regard to an important Order upon the Paper. I am quite aware of the importance, as a matter of general Business, of getting the Redistribution Bill passed as soon as possible, so as to enable the Local Authorities to do their work; but a very serious Constitutional question has unfortunately arisen. It turns out—and we have taken good opinion upon the point—that the Redistribution Bill, when it passes, absolutely takes away from this time until November next the power of Dissolution. It destroys one set of constituencies, and—
EARL GRANVILLE: I beg the pardon of the noble Marquess. Does he propose to make his statement on the Motion for the Adjournment, or on the Order for the consideration of the Bill?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My proposal was to take the Motion for Adjournment before the Orders of the Day; but if the noble Earl proposes to go through the Orders of the Day first, I shall offer no objection to that course being adopted. I, however, think that it would be an inconvenient one. What I was about to say with regard to the Redistribution Bill was that that was the effect of it. It destroys one set of?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I rise to Order. It is against the Rules of the House to discuss one Order when the House is considering another question. I therefore object to the noble Marquess making a statement at the present moment. [Cries of "Divide!"]
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am aware that these observations before half-past 4 o'clock are never technically in Order at all; but if the noble Earl objects, of course I will not proceed.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I think it will be more convenient to wait until the Order is reached.

PRINCESS BEATRICE'S ANNUITY BILL.
(The Earl Granville.)

(NO. 138.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL GRANVILLE: After the reception which your Lordships gave to the observations made on this subject the other day by the noble Marquess and by myself, it does not require any words of mine to commend this Bill to your Lordships, and I therefore move the second reading of the Bill. I think your Lordships will be of opinion that this is a Bill with regard to which the Standing Orders should be suspended.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl Granville.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived: Then Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed.

HONORARY FREEDOM OF BOROUGHS BILL.

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENT.
  Commons Amendment considered (according to order).
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONmoved that the Commons' Amendment to this Bill, by which Corporations were allowed to grant the freedom of their boroughs by a bare majority, be agreed to.
  Moved, "To agree to the said Amendment."—(The Marquess of Ripon.)
  EARL BEAUCHAMPobjected to the Amendment. The Bill originally required a two-thirds majority, and he moved that the Amendment be not agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he regarded the point as a small one. He would not give the House the trouble of dividing.
  On Question? Resolved in the negative.
  A Committee appointed to prepare a reason to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to the said amendment: The Committee to meet forthwith: Report from the Committee of the reason prepared by them; read, and agreed to; and Bill returned to the Commons with a reason.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (REDISTRIBUTION) BILL.
  Order of the Day for considering the Commons reasons for disagreeing to some of the Lords amendments, read.
  Moved, "That the House do now take the said reasons into consideration."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUEY: I must renew the grounds of the objection which I stated a short time ago. The Bill, by its structure, legally prevents any Dissolution taking place between the time of its passing and November next. I will not argue as to the fact; I believe that it is undoubted. I will not enter upon the expediency. That is a question which I do not wish now to discuss; but the point I wish to impress upon your Lordships is that it is a very singular and unusual event in our history. Except in the time of the Long Parliament, the Sovereign has never before been deprived of the power of Dissolution, and I think that such a state of things ought not to exist unless there is a responsible Government in power at the time. I think a Bill having such an effect should not be passed without a responsible Government. What a responsible Government, whether on that side of the House or this, may decide on the matter, I do not wish to anticipate; but we have no right to make so large a Constitutional innovation when no responsible Government is in power. I, therefore, move that the consideration of the Commons' reasons for disagreeing with the Lords' Amendments to this Bill be postponed until Tuesday.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("on Tuesday next.")—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE EAEL or KIMBERLEY: So far as this side of the House is concerned, I feel bound to say that it was thought probable that some objections of this kind would be raised. The noble Marquess is well aware, of course, that the clause in debate—the clause as to the Dissolution—was introduced at his suggestion. It now appears that some technical objection is raised to the clause. It seems to me that if it is not the intention of any Party in this country—and I cannot conceive for a moment that it can be the intention anywhere—to lay aside this important Bill, there is no reason why the consideration of these Amendments should not be proceeded with forthwith. I would venture to ask your Lordships' attention to what
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  took place in the other House, and I have a right to refer to what took place there, because their proceedings in regard to the Bill are formally before us. After the resignation of the Government took place, and when the Amendments came to be considered, the House decided, by an overwhelming majority of 333 to 35, I believe, that it should proceed with the Amendments. Now, my Lords, is it for this House, after such a declaration of opinion on the part of the House which is immediately concerned, to raise some technical objection of this kind, and refuse to pass this Bill into law to the great inconvenience of the whole country? My Lords, I do not wish that anything I say should be supposed for a moment to impute motives which I have no right to suppose exist; but how is it possible to avoid the belief that there may be some intention somewhere of tampering with this important Bill? If not, how can it be possible that the minds of noble Lords opposite should not be prepared to proceed, having before them this great majority in the other House? The present Government, which is still technically, though not in one sense a Government, are ready to proceed with these Amendments. I say it is impossible to understand what can be the object the noble Marquess has in this appeal. My Lords, can it be that it is contemplated that there should be a Dissolution of Parliament before the present Bill comes into effect? That may be technically possible; but I assert that the whole country is so bent upon this Bill passing into law, and upon there being no Dissolution and no Election until this Bill has passed into law, that no man could possibly hold Office in this country that would advise Her Majesty to dissolve Parliament except under this Bill. These are the undeniable facts, and I shall ask the House to proceed with the consideration of the Amendments, and I earnestly hope that the Amendments will be taken into consideration forthwith.
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAMsaid, he objected to the Amendments being proceeded with now. The House had been very much hurried with regard to the Amendments on this Bill. He himself had had two or three Amendments, in which great interest was felt by the people of the West Riding of York-

  1597
  shire, and he had been precluded at a former stage from having those Amendments discussed, because of the noble Earl's statement that it was most important that the Bill should go down to the other House on that night. But what occurred? So far from the other House taking the Amendments into consideration on that night, the Bill was postponed till the following Monday. Notwithstanding the noble Earl's protests, therefore, the other House had proceeded with great deliberation, and had allowed an interval of two or three days before considering the Amendments. He held in his hand a telegram as to one of the local Amendments to which he had referred; but the noble Earl seemed to think that these local affairs were of no consequence. He begged to tell him that the localities felt deeply on the Amendments which had been hurried through in that House: and he, for one, should certainly support the Motion to postpone the Bill. The House should not be asked to hurry forward this measure when the other House had proceeded with such deliberation.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish only to say that the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) is quite mistaken—at least, according to our opinion—when he says that these Amendments, which are the cause of the difficulty, were made at my instigation. It is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th clauses which, I believe, make the difficulty. I think the noble Earl has taken an unnecessarily heroic line on this subject. The whole question is a delay of three or four days. If your Lordships grant that delay there is a possibility that there will be a delay of four days in the Dissolution? Is the sky likely to fall if that should occur? I hope your Lordships will not succumb to the very tragic tone of the noble Earl, but will consent to my proposition.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I may have been mistaken as to the particular clauses which create the difficulty, and I, of course, do not impute any possible breach of engagement to the noble Marquess in the slightest degree. Still, I ask, why should there be a delay of four days? I understood the noble Earl who spoke just now (the Earl of Fev6rsham) to complain that there had not been sufficient Notice of the Amendments in Committee on the Bill; but I
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  think that the Notice was ample, as those Amendments have been before the House for several days. There has been as much Notice as there was in the other House. Therefore I do not understand why this matter is not to be proceeded with. The House can oppose the Commons' Amendments and give reasons for disagreement; or, if it does not insist on its own Amendments, the Bill will then pass through both Houses of Parliament; but I have not heard any reason given why we should adjourn the consideration of this Bill for four days, and I shall certainly divide the House upon the question.
  On Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 56; Not-Contents 124: Majority 68.

  CONTENTS.

  Selborne, E. (Z. Chancellor.)

  Carrington, L. [Teller.]

  Carysfort, L. (E. Carysfort.)

  Devonshire, D.

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

  Marlborough, D.

  Somerset, D.

  Emly, L.

  Ettrick, L. (L. Napier.)

  Northampton, M.

  FitzGerald, L.

  Ripon, M.

  Granard, L. (E. Granard.)

  Camperdown, E.

  Hammond, L.

  Chichester, E.

  Herries, L.

  Derby, E.

  Hothfield, L.

  Granville, E.

  Houghton, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Kenmare, L. (E. Kenmare.)

  Minto, E.

  Northbrook, E.

  Leigh, L.

  Shaftesbury, E.

  Londesborough, L.

  Sydney, E.

  Lovat, L.

  Lyttelton, L.

  Eversley, V.

  Monk Bretton, L.

  Gordon, V. (E. Aberdeen.)

  Monson, L. [Teller.]

  Monteagle of Brandon, L.

  Leinster, V. (D. Leinster.)

  Mount-Temple, L.

  Powerscourt, V.

  Robartes, L.

  Sherbrooke, V.

  Rosebery, L. (E. Rosebery.)

  Aberdare, L.

  Strafford, L. (V. Enfield.)

  Acton, L.

  Alcester, L.

  Sudeley, L.

  Belper, L.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  Bramwell, L.

  Tweeddale, L. (M. Tweeddale.)

  Braye, L.

  Breadalbane, L. (E. Breadalbane.)

  Tweedmouth, L.

  Wenlock, L.

  Carlingford, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Buckingham and Chandos, D.

  Richmond, D.

  Sutherland, D.

  Grafton, D.

  Leeds, D.

  Abergavenny, M.

  Manchester, D

  Bristol, M.

  1599

  Bute, M.

  Brabourne, E.

  Salisbury, M.

  Castlemaine, L.

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

  Annesley, E.

  Ashburnham, E.

  Clifton,L. (E.Darnley.)

  Bandon, E.

  Clinton, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Clonbrock, L.

  Belmore, E.

  Cloncurry, L.

  Brownlow, E.

  Colchester, L.

  Cairns, E.

  Colville of Culross, L.

  Carnarvon, E.

  Crofton, L.

  Coventry, E.

  De Freyne, L.

  Cowley, E.

  de Ros, L.

  Dartmouth, E.

  Denman, L.

  Dartrey, E.

  Digby, L.

  Eldon, E.

  Dinevor, L.

  Feversham, E.

  Donington, L.

  Hardwicke, E.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Harewood, E.

  Forester, L.

  Harrowby, E.

  Foxford, L. (R. Limerick.)

  Jersey, E.

  Kilmorey, E.

  Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

  Lathom, E. [Teller.]

  Gerard, L.

  Macclesfield, E.

  Gormanston, L. (V. Gormanston.)

  Manvers, E.

  Mar and Kellie, E.

  Hartismere, L. (L.Henniker.)

  Milltown, E.

  Mount Edgcumbe, E.

  Keane, L.

  Northesk, E.

  Ker, L. (M. Lothian.)

  Onslow, E.

  Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

  Orkney, E.

  Poulett, E.

  Leconfield, L.

  Radnor, E.

  Lyveden, L.

  Ravensworth, E.

  Mostyn, L.

  Redesdale, E.

  Napier, L.

  Rosse, E.

  Norton, L.

  Stanhope, E.

  Oranmore and Browne, L.

  Strange, E. (D.Athole.)

  Strathmore and Kinghorn, E.

  Penrhyn, L.

  Petre, L.

  Vane, E. (M.Londonderry.)

  Raglan, L.

  Ranfurly, L. (E. Ranfurly.)

  Waldegrave, E.

  Ross, L. (E. Glasgow.)

  Clancarty, V. (E. Clancarty.)

  Rossmore, L.

  Saltersford, L. (E. Courtown.)

  Cranbrook, V.

  Gough, V.

  Saltoun, L.

  Hardinge, V.

  Shute, L.(V. Barrington.)

  Hawarden, V. [Teller.]

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

  Sidmouth, V.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  St. Vincent, V.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.)

  Chichester, L. Bp.

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Gloucester and Bristol, L. Bp.

  Strathnairn, L.

  Templemore, L.

  Amherst, L.(V.Holmesdale.)

  Tollemache, L.

  Trevor, L.

  Ashford, L. (V.Bury.)

  Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford.)

  Aveland, L.

  Bagot, L.

  Ventry, L.

  Balfour of Burley, L.

  Watson, L.

  Beaumont, L.

  Wimborne, L.

  Blantyre, L.

  Winmarleigh, L.

  Bolton, L.

  Wynford, L.

  Borthwick, L.

  Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

  Boston, L.

  Ordered that the said reasons be considered on Tuesday next.
  EARL GRANVILLE: In consequence of this decision, and what was said by the noble Marquess, I move that the House do now adjourn till Tuesday next. It will, of course, be understood that the House will be able to sit for the disposal of Judicial Business on Monday.
  Motion agreed to.

  ARCHDEACONRIES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to explain the Act 3rd and 4th Vict., chap. 113., sect. 34. (Provision for Archdeaconries)—Was presented by The Lord Archbishop of CANTERBURY; read 1a. (No. 150.)
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.