Lords Sitting of 17 July 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading — Copyhold Enfranchisement* (185); Public Health (Ships, &c.)* (186); Marriages (Saint John, Cowley) * (187); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (No. 2)* (188); Land Purchase (Ireland) (181).
Second Heading —Local Government Provisional Order (Municipal Corporations)* (166); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (167); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) * (168); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 9) * (169); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders* (170); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Labourers Act) (No. 5) * (173); Metropolis Management Acts Amendment * (162); Local Loans (Sinking Funds) * (175).
Committee — Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) * (153).
Report —Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2), now Tramways Order in Council (Ireland) (65); Archdeaconries, now Ecclesiastical Commissioners (No. 2) * (180); Tithe Pent Charge Redemption* (165).

SECONDARY EDUCATION IN BOARD SCHOOLS (METROPOLIS).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  LORD NORTON,in moving for a Return of secondary instruction, in day schools for boys, now being given in London—namely, Number of boys being taught any of the subjects called Specific in the Code; number over 10 years of age, and of the highest age, number of teachers engaged in such instruction,

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  or teachers of special subject; the maximum and minimum salaries of such teachers; number of elementary or higher schools in which such instruction is given; and how many of them have laboratories or apparatus for experimental lectures, said, that at this period of the Session he would not attempt to go into the whole question, but would merely call attention to the subject, which was of great importance, and which should be dealt with without delay. The Return moved for would show, from the sample of boys' schools in London, how the secondary education of England, the deficiency of which was reported by the Commissioners of 1868, was being wrongly undertaken by the public elementary schools, wastefully and injuriously competing, by an extravagant use of public money, with independent schools. They were superseding and overlapping much of the work better done from private resources, or self-supported, in schools for higher instruction, following after elementary preparation. That the public elementary schools, under the Act of 1870, were not intended for secondary instruction was clear from all debates on the subject. The author of the Act of 1870, Mr. W. E. Forster, lately re-asserted the first intention, and considered that departure from it involved a disregard of many parents' claims to their children's industry, and an unwarranted assumption of general taxation for education of all kinds in this country. The first explanatory Circular from the Department, after the passage of the Act, strictly limited the public undertaking to elementary teaching. The Code now showed a wide departure, offering instruction in three schedules of subjects, the first only being called elementary; a second called class subjects, which the revised instructions just issued declared ample to form those habits of observation and reasoning which were needed for the intelligent conduct of life; and a list besides called specific subjects, which were described as beyond the scheme of ordinary elementary instruction. But the London School Board were eager to go further, and had expressed regret at their delay in embracing secondary education altogether, and at Provincial towns having preceded them. They said they looked to the coming Election to force on this general undertaking. Might it not
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  rather give a better promise, in foreshadowing schemes of county government, of a possible revision of our national education, relegating each portion of it to its proper province? Public Departments were naturally ambitious, and school boards had drifted into excess from their large command of public money and a magnificent idea that to do anything' by halves was beneath their dignity. The Government seemed equally liberal in their view, offering to open the Treasury to make grants to Wales for three Colleges, besides intermediate schools between them and the elementary schools, on the score of Welsh poverty, and offering a duplicate establishment to Scotland on the score of Scotch educational superiority. Thus opposite reasons wore assigned, for the common object of Government undertaking. If the State was to undertake the secondary education of this country, it should not be done covertly, wastefully, and imperfectly, in elementary schools, but openly and completely by public secondary schools throughout the Kingdom. If this was not to be, the present attempt should be stopped in time from encroaching on independent undertakings. There were many reasons against a public provision for our secondary education in England. It would be repugnant to general feeling not yet seduced by offers of the the public purse. Parents of the middle classes preferred independent education for their children. The Commissioners of 1868 condemned a rate-paid system as injuriously weakening the sense of parental obligation. At a late inauguration of a Day School Company there were high authorities taking this view. Lord Aberdare joined this independent enterprize—
  "Because he felt sure this country would never submit to a system of middle-class schools supported by taxes and controlled by the State."
  Mr. Forster added that—
  "We did not look to rate-paid or tax-helped education for children whose schooling went on beyond the age of 14."
  Lord Carlingford, then President of the Council, said that—
  "What they were dealing with was not what the Education Department had to do with."
  And others of great practical experience agreed that the ground they were on

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  could not be effectively occupied otherwise than by such private undertakings in England, and that schemes such as this might be made wide enough for all the needs of the country. The Commissioners of 1868 gave another reason against Government undertaking—
  "That it was most undesirable, even if possible, to have such schools moulded in one type. Any attempt at securing the same subjects to be taught, the same method of organization to be followed, the same discipline to be adopted for all our middle-class schools would fail of the highest objects of education."
  The want of freedom and elasticity and of adaptation to various situations and circumstances; the loss of all advantage from special aptitudes of teachers; the being tied to same standards and textbooks imperatively used to meet the Code, all belonged to an educational system foreign to our national requirements. The cost of such a Government undertaking, even in its present incipient state, whether applied to a few children in each elementary school, or to groups in super-elementary schools, was producing a ratepayers' outcry hazarding the whole cause of national education. Already the school rate of London had gone up from 3d. to over 9d. in the pound. If allowed to proceed, the present Estimate of £7,000,000 a-year would have to be doubled; and, if offered freely, which meant to all at public expense, trebled. Nor would this be all. When Mr. Mundella took credit to his Department for the decrease of crime in the country he forgot all the reformatory and industrial schools outside his Department to which it was more attributable. The multiplicity of institutions necessary to a complete State system was another objection of which they were amply warned by the example of the Continent, as described and recommended by the Technical Commission. But the greatest objection to the Government undertaking our secondary education was its adopted mode of payment on results. The London School Board had condemned this method as fatal to education. They took the Treasury payments to general account, and by fixed salaries saved their teachers from the temptation of earning a livelihood by prizes got out of their pupils. The overpressure, so absurdly tested by medical cases, was an inseparable feature of such
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  a method of payment for education by an ascending scale of prizes earned through crammed-up scholars. The Board had Inspectors of their own to report on the whole school work, It was payment on results that excluded religious teaching, to which public grants could not be attached. To bring secondary education on to such a system would be a national disaster. But could it be otherwise better supplied? Would sufficient independent supply be forthcoming? The Technical Instruction Commissioners, who had just reported, and the Commissioners of 1868, agreed in showing how much was already provided by independent foundations and private establishments. Both also agreed in looking to much unused endowment being made further available. There was, then, only a residue of deficiency to be supplied. To meet this, both suggested that more power might be given to towns to rate themselves voluntarily for the purpose. But the Commissioners of 1868 proposed this only as a last resort, failing all further independent supply; the Technical Commissioners, as a part of an entire public educational undertaking, to which independent supply was only contributory. They assumed such a State system to be the object in view; and their main idea of national education altogether seemed to be to make our trade and manufactures meet foreign competition. They were commissioned to report on the instruction of industrial classes in foreign countries, for comparison with, and suggestions on, our own system. Their opening text was the formidable display of manufacturing improvements in the Paris Exhibition of 1878; and they took the foreign State system of education as their model. Yet it was remarkable that they traced the foundation of the Continental technical schools to a dread of British superiority, and concluded that, great as had been the progress and keen as was their rivalry, our people still maintained their position at the head of the industrial world. Secondary education they almost exclusively discussed as preparatory to technical instruction. It really was something much wider—namely, a general education of children from the age of 14 to 18, preparing them for industrial employment higher than the manual work for which others left school at 14. They seemed to think all manual work

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  a degradation from which all children should be delivered. The special training for skilled employment was what the spirit of this country would not fail to supply. For this we should rather look to the State standing out of the way than interfering. It had already gone far in impeding much fitter institutions than its own for the purpose. At Liverpool a finely endowed College was being deserted for the cheaper offer of similar instruction in elementary schools at public expense. The Manchester Grammar School now dwindled under the competition of a rate-paid elementary rival. That any independent higher schools could compete with the unlimited resources of school boards for buildings, appliances, and salaries, proved the superior attraction of independent teaching. At Leeds the Grammar School adherents had baffled the ambition of the Board. In Birmingham large endownments had completely undertaken middle-class education. The Day School Companies, handicapped as they were at starting, had proved successful, popular, and even profitable. But the effort and skill required in the struggle was great. The Government deny that the board schools competed with the middle independent schools. As their scholars could not earn grants after passing their Standards once they were let go at the utmost age of 14. They therefore said that, at present, they had not got the children who continued schooling till 18. Some specific subjects also had been put down on the lower paid list, and were consequently dropped. Elementary examination had also been continued always in company with secondary examination, and much artificial display was so abandoned. There were shifts to meet the rising outcry. But all this was only to confess the sham of their undertaking the province of higher instruction; yet it none the less hindered better provision. It was also a covert advance towards the complete State system. Let the State provide free exhibitions for poor clever children from its elementary to the secondary schools, which were, and would be much more, if unimpeded, independently provided. If this Return gave the evidence he anticipated he would move a Resolution on it next Session. The noble Lord concluded by moving for the Return of which he had given Notice.
  Moved for, Return of secondary instruction in day schools for boys, now being given in London:

  Public Elementary Schools.

  Independent Schools.

  Board

  Voluntary

  Endowed

  Companies'.

  Number of boys being taught any of the subjects called Specific in the Code

  Number over 10 years of age, and of the highest age.

  Number of teachers engaged in such instruction, or teachers of special subjects

  The maximum and minimum salaries of such teachers

  Number of elementary or higher schools in which such instruction is given

  How many of them have laboratories or apparatus for experimental lectures.

  —(The Lord Norton.)
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT CRANBROOK)said, that everybody was aware of the great interest which the noble Lord had for so long taken in education, both elementary and secondary; and, therefore, his remarks were listened to with the respect they deserved. His opinion, however, differed on this question from that of the noble Lord, and he spoke from experience gained from a general knowledge of the subject. He agreed with his noble Friend that the elementary system was not meant to give secondary education, and that at present all authorities on educational matters, and also all economical authorities, were equally opposed to giving secondary education at the expense of the country. He,

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  however, failed to see how that fact advanced the object which the noble Lord had in view, which was, as he understood it, not to go now into the question of secondary education as a State system, but, merely to show how the present system of elementary education was extended beyond the sphere allotted to it until it became secondary education on a large scale. As their Lordships knew, there were Seven Standards now instead of six, which were entirely confined to elementary education. But it was not to be supposed that reading, writing, and arithmetic were mere mechanical processes, and were not to imply reading of subjects giving information or writing something to improve the mind. The security that they had in the matter, however, was that when a child had once passed its Seventh Standard its further education was entirely at its own expense. If the noble Lord could show that the very small number indeed who endeavoured to get education which was beyond that included in the Standards injured the teaching in the schools, then he would, no doubt, have a strong argument to induce the Education Department to stop the system. But that was not the case; and if a child was able to advance beyond the school Standard, and at his own cost learn something beyond, he did not think that anyone could complain of that. The object of the Education Act was to carry into effect that which was supposed to be elementary education, and no child could be examined in specific subjects unless the school the year before had passed 70 per cent of its pupils. This, therefore, acted as a direct check in insuring that the mere formal elementary education was conducted upon right principles and in an effective manner. Besides that, they had merit grants, which further tended to insure the teaching of elementary education, of which an experienced Inspector said that they prevented waste of time in over-taxing memories by cramming text books on physiology, etc. The noble Lord's Return related to the Metropolis. He had not the figures relating to London; but he could give their Lordships figures with respect to the country generally. There were 28,000 departments in the country, and of those only 2,000 took specific subjects. Out of the 4,300,000 children on the books of the schools, there were
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  only 33,226 who passed in one specific subject, and 12,804 who passed in two. There was no intention on the part of the Department to extend secondary education at the expense of the country, but rather to check any tendency to do so, and it remained to be proved that good secondary schools were required— indeed, it seemed evident that well-conducted ones had been an immense success, and some re-organized by the Charity Commission were most efficient. He could not conceive that these class subjects and specific subjects, of which English must always be one, could in any degree interfere with elementary education.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, ho thought there was some inconsistency in the account given by the noble Viscount, for if Latin, French, and algebra were taught, inter alia, in so-called elementary schools, surely there was some tendency to travel towards the education of middle schools. One remarkable feature about this State and rate-aided education was that it was extremely difficult to find out what it cost—the items were scattered over so many different Estimates. He objected to the present amount of secondary education given with rate and State aid, as unjust to the ratepayers and taxpayers, and as demoralizing to those who took advantage of it. He was very glad to hear that the Government had no intention of extending this system, especially as he remembered that Mr. Mundella had expressed a hope that public opinion would advance in this matter, and that secondary education would before long come under the action of the State.
  Motion agreed to.
  Return ordered to be laid before the House.

DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE—DEFENCE OF COMMERCIAL POETS AND SEA. SIDE HARBOURS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL COWPERin rising to call attention to the insufficiently defended condition of our commercial ports and seaside towns; and to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they did not think that this condition should be remedied; and, if so, what measures they were themselves prepared to take for the purpose, and also what measures

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  they thought should be left to voluntary-effort? said, that he had no intention at all of making any attack either upon the present or the late Government. The present Government had been much too short a time in Office to enable them to take any steps; and with regard to the late Government, he had not the necessary skill or knowledge of the subject to make such an attack, and if he had he should not be inclined to use it in that direction. They had all listened with great interest to the statement of the noble Earl (the Earl of Northbrook) the other evening, and they must all come to the conclusion that he had made out a very good case for himself, and that he had done in his turn of Office more than most of his Predecessors in the way of improving our Navy. His only object in asking this Question was to obtain information from the Government as to what was likely to be done for the defence of those parts of our coasts which some people considered might be attacked by foreign aggressors. The information would be very useful to the public, and it would be very useful to those seafaring men who were willing to volunteer for the defence of our coasts, as well as to those of the public who were unable to give their time, but were willing to give money, for a similar purpose. It could hardly be denied that it was necessary that our chief ports and our seaside towns should be put in a state of defence. The only people who at all denied this were those who maintained that in time of war an unfortified town would be respected by the enemy, and that our seaside towns might, therefore, safely remain in their present defenceless condition. He would remind such that very eminent men had expressly warned them against any such idea, and they all saw in the Franco-Prussian War what large sums were levied upon unprotected towns by way of ransom. The more he looked into the question of International Law, the more he was convinced that it was the undisputed right of an enemy to levy contributions on unprotected towns. If an enemy's ships were anchored opposite a defenceless town there was no doubt they would levy such contributions as they could get. They, therefore, who were trusting for protection to International Law were relying upon a vain hope. Very probably he might be told
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  that the Government had not had time to consider so great a subject as the defence of the coasts of these Islands and our Colonies in all its bearings, and that it was inexpedient for different reasons to divulge what it was intended to do. He should, therefore, confine his remarks to that part of the subject in which Volunteer aid might be largely employed. The defence of our coasts was divided between the War Office and the Admiralty. The War Office had charge of all the submarine mines and everything connected by wire with the mainland, however distant it might be, while everything in the shape of vessels and torpedo boats not connected with the shore was managed by the Admiralty. This divided authority might be found a serious difficulty in a sudden emergency. He believed, with respect to the mines, that under the auspices of Lord Hartington and the noble Earl a system of working them with volunteered assistance had already been instituted. Mines, however, were not sufficient in themselves; it was necessary to have torpedo boats in order to prevent the enemy from destroying these mines. In connection with the question of the Volunteer system, he wished first to call attention to the men. There were already a few corps of Naval Volunteers, which did not even receive a capitation grant, or any great encouragement. Everyone who knew anything about them knew the energy, courage, self-sacrifice, and intelligence which they showed. They were recruited in some cases from the valuable seafaring population of our ports. He would like to know from the noble Earl opposite whether there was any hope of these men receiving a capitation grant like other Volunteers; and, secondly, whether there was any hope that they would be increased in number as work was found for them to do? He hoped that the Government would see their way to employing these Volunteers without limiting them to any particular number. As regarded the material, torpedo boats would be necessary for use at all sea-coast towns, if they were to be properly defended. These boats might either be paid for by private subscriptions, or be provided by the Government, or else Government might assist in providing them. On this point, he would be glad of some information from the Government. A

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  great deal was to be said in favour of voluntary enterprize, In these days they were all inclined to trust too much for everything to the Government and Government interference; and he believed that it was the recognition of this danger that had united both sides, both of their Lordships' House and of the House of Commons, in their wish to make some effort in favour of decentralization in the form of local government. But local government would not necessarily cure the evil. The real cure lay in the extension of the voluntary principle. With regard to the voluntary principle, as applied to the defence of the country, he did not think it necessary to say anything. The Volunteer Force had been in existence for 25 years now; and without much encouragement, and in spite of a great deal of coldness, opposition, and ridicule, it had attained immense proportions in the country, and everyone was now convinced of the reality of the movement. Some people had said, with regard to the movement, that the services should be given gratis; but that the public or the Government should find the money necessary. He could not see that this was well founded. These men gave their time—and they belonged to a class whose time was money—and they were as much giving their money to the service of the State as if they had put their hands into their pockets. If the poor gave what was virtually their money, he could not see why the rich should not give theirs. In the Volunteer Corps, when founded, there had been two classes—those who gave their time, and those who gave their money—and he thought that now, when the Admiralty had so much necessity for spending all that they could get, there was very little hope that they would spend money in the direction which he had specified. What he wanted to know was how they stood with regard to this matter. No one would give his money for any object if he thought that the state would provide it. He wanted to know whether or not the Government would be willing to find torpedo boats for the defence of our principal seaports, rivers, and commercial ports? He would also be glad if the noble Earl would give him any information as to the general action which the Government would assume upon the question, or if he would tell
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  them anything of their intentions with regard to this Naval Volunteer movement, which had already grown to a certain extent in this country, and which, he hoped, would every day increase in strength.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Earl of HARROWBY): My Lords, I do not think that it is necessary for me to impress upon your Lordships my sense of the importance of this subject; and I can at once say to the noble Earl, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that I am very grateful to him for the prominent part which he has taken in this matter. My noble Friend has wisely and patriotically put himself at the head of a movement which I believe will assume a very great and important character—the Naval Volunteer and Home Defence Association — an association which already numbers amongst its members a body of distinguished men, and, I am proud to say, several Members of your Lordships' House. I rejoice very much indeed that the noble Earl should have taken such a prominent part in this movement, and that he should have lent to it the benefit of his calm judgment and great ability. The matter which my noble Friend has brought forward is one which requires careful consideration. My noble Friend touches only one branch of a great subject—a matter upon which the safety of the country depends—namely, the naval condition of this country. I am one of those who do not believe that, in face of war, we should actually suffer terrible disasters in this direction, for this reason—that I have full confidence in the energy, courage, and money resources of the people; and I believe that if the threat of attack against our commercial harbours became serious, that such is the martial spirit in the country that there would be a tremendous rush of men to the front in defence of the sea coast, that we should save our towns from any very serious injury. But there would have to be almost superhuman efforts, very serious loss of life, and probably enormous waste of money. For my own part, I can speak on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. We are very strongly of opinion that our harbours and ports should not remain in their present defenceless condition, although in case of panic we are convinced that they would be successfully

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  defended. However, we have made up our minds that the condition of these ports must be faced, and we believe that it is wiser to provide in times of peace against panic, and to see that the proposed remedies are wise, and sensible, and adequate. My noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty is not satisfied with the present condition of defence, and will shortly lay before his Naval Colleagues proposals for their consideration for the purpose of improving those defences. When I say consideration, I trust that your Lordships will not think that we mean to stop short there. In our opinion, the time has come when a prompt decision should be taken on this subject. It must be remembered that if war broke out our Fleet could not be employed solely in defending our ports. Every ship, small and large, would have to be occupied in shutting up the ships of the enemy in their ports, in conveying our merchant fleets, and in watching scattered Colonies all over the world, and this over and above any aggressive action. It is not sounding unduly a note of alarm to say that the great Fleet of this country would not be at the disposal of the commercial ports and harbours. We have to face this state of things. Your Lordships will not suppose that I am alarmed because I believe that a great disaster would be averted; but still I believe that the state of things is most grave and serious. Of course, we know where the danger would come from. The fastest unar-moured cruisers would endeavour to make descents on our wealthy commercial harbours. The danger is one that must be considered and faced, though without any feeling of panic. Would it be possible for Her Majesty's Government, with any idea of the most ordinary economy, or with any ordinary Estimates that could pass the House of Commons, to undertake the defence of all these commercial ports? I believe the expense would be so enormous that you could not expect the House of Commons to meet it, and the country would not expect the Government to undertake the serious operations which would be necessary for the defence of our ports and harbours. Although it is rather early for Her Majesty's Government to make any definite announcement, yet the view that is taken by the
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  Admiralty under the present Government is that we must rely to a great extent upon the localities for the serious part of this work. Not only on the ground of expense do I say this, but we believe they would probably do the work better for themselves than a Government Department would do it. We also believe it will be done cheaper by the localities, and the facts of their being asked to bestir themselves in their own defence, and of some of their best men enrolling themselves in Naval Volunteer Corps, would tend to encourage a noble spirit in the locality, to keep up the national spirit, and to improve the tone of all who joined in the work of self-defence. I cordially endorse what has been said by my noble Friend, that the encouragement of the Volunteer spirit is a matter of national importance. The attitude of the Government would not be one of mere cold approval; but they would do all in their power to encourage such a movement, to back it up, and to cooperate with those who patriotically identified themselves with it. From a naval point of view, what would be wanted for the defence of these ports and harbours? There are three matters which do not come in the naval purview. Forts, batteries, and submarine mines from the land are under the War Department, and we put them aside for the moment. I have every reason to believe that the War Department and the Admiralty will act with the most friendly concert in this matter, and that every endeavour will be used to secure that Engineers, Artillery, and Navy will work together cordially in the furtherance of this great undertaking. The naval requirements for the defence of these commercial harbours and ports are two—materials and men. As to materials, ships are wanted. I mean rather torpedo boats and everything connected with torpedo defence and steam tugs of sufficient speed for gun-boats. As to the supply of materials, the First Lord of the Admiralty, having taken the best advice on the subject, is of opinion that we ought to rely, not upon the Government, but upon localities and patriotic associations, such as that with which my noble Friend has identified himself. Coming to the second head—that of men—of course, the great object will be to have trained men to work these for-

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  pedoes and gun-boats; and Her Majesty's Government are ready to give every possible encouragement to the creation of Naval Volunteer Corps. Everyone must have seen with satisfaction the start made in this matter in London, Liverpool, and Bristol. Her Majesty's Government feel that the best help they can give to this movement, independently of co-operation and assistance in smaller matters, will be to contribute in some way to the maintenance of the men of the Naval Volunteers. I am not authorized by the First Lord of the Admiralty to state the exact way in which he proposes to contribute to their maintenance; but he accepts the principle, and hopes to be able to make a statement next week as to how it may be applied. As to the supply of the materials, we hope that the patriotism of localities and of wealthy individuals connected with societies will come to the aid of the country. With regard to the men, we hope that the patriotism which we know prevails so largely in all ranks in the country, and particularly in naval districts, will lead men to come forward and to serve as Naval Volunteers, and we shall merely assist in the maintenance in some way to be afterwards disclosed. In the time of the great War from 1798 to 1810, the seafaring population contributed 12,000 men in England, headed by 92 captains, and 12,000 men in Ireland, who formed the Sea Fencibles, and helped to make the country secure; and I am not without hope that the same spirit among the same population will render equal service in the future. But, after all, this is only part of a very great question—the naval position of this country. The nation is manifesting great anxiety as to its Fleet. It is asking whether the ships are numerous enough, strong enough, fast enough, well armed, and fitted with modern appliances, and whether our Navy could hold its own against all probable as well as possible combinations. The nation is also asking whether the Navy will be strong enough to guard our food supplies in case of war, to guard our treasure ships, to protect our merchandise, to protect our Colonies, to keep our merchant ships from being driven under a foreign flag, and to preserve this Island absolutely intact from fear and danger. Her Majesty's Government feel that these are
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  questions the nation will have a right to demand an answer to before very long. We have pronounced no opinion on the subject; but we feel that no question is so important at the present time as the state of our Navy, and no question requires more careful thought and more continuous investigation, and, at the same time investigation free from anything like undue alarm or panic. Her Majesty's Government hope to be able before long, after careful examination, to satisfy the feelings of the nation on this subject. What the answer will be we know not. But we do feel one thing. Suppose we were able to say that our Navy is virtually, as of old, mistress of the sea, that our commercial ports are safe from all fear of attack, that our seaside towns are safe, that our Colonial towns are safe, through local energy and Government help, and that our coaling stations are safe—if we can say all this, the effect upon the prosperity of the country will be no slight matter. We believe that instead of having a warlike effect upon the nations of the world the effect would be exactly the contrary. We believe that if we can give the answer which we may be able to give, and which, at any rate, we ought to be able to give, we should promote the peace of the world more than we could in any other way. We believe that the effect upon our commerce would be seen at once in a resurrection of enterprize and in the return of prosperity to labour and industry. Instability and uncertainty as to the future seriously interfere with the national prosperity; stability and certainty give elasticity to our resources and the enterprize of our people. I hope and believe we shall be able to give that good account. We hope for the best, and if we do not find things as we hope we must do our best to set them right. The country will never forgive a Government who deceives them about our naval supremacy, and it will refuse no sacrifice that is necessary to preserve that supremacy, and to preserve the flag, commerce, and soil of England from insult and from injury.
  THE EARL OF RAVENSWORTHsaid, that the commercial communities would thoroughly appreciate the tone of the speech that the noble Earl had made on behalf of the Government. It was with no intention of throwing cold water on the scheme that he urged the Govern-

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  ment to look the difficulties full in the face, for there were grave difficulties to overcome. In the first place, there was the danger of friction between the War Office and the Admiralty, with both of which Departments the new force would have to do. It was necessary, therefore, to define clearly the relations which were to subsist in this matter between those two great authorities. Next, it it would be no easy matter to find and train a suitable body of men for the service. Neither seamen nor soldiers were wanted; but men possessing what might be called amphibious qualifications, and being, above all, good oarsmen. It was important in forming this force not to trench unduly on the recruiting grounds of the Navy and Engineers. A capitation grant would be absolutely necessary if the force was to be of real value. Naval officers, probably lieutenants, would have to be placed in command at each port. Above all, it was essential that the scheme should form part of a great national policy of steady and persistent preparation, with absolute freedom from panic. He further thought that the Government should find the means of instruction and the gun-boats.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, he thought their Lordships must have heard with great satisfaction the announcement by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Harrowby) of the determination of Her Majesty's Government to maintain the strength of the Navy. He hoped, however, that their Lordships would, on this occasion, recollect that this was not mainly a naval question at all. The noble Lords who had joined in this discussion omitted to explain that the main defence of our commercial harbours must be by guns. Not one of those who had addressed their Lordships had mentioned one of the most valuable Forces now existing in this country—namely, the Artillery Volunteers. Those Volunteers when supplied with guns, which could be moved from place to place along the coast, would, in many cases, be able to render valuable assistance in the defence of our commercial ports and harbours. Their Lordships ought not to run away with the idea that torpedoes were going to be all powerful in the future. This was a matter of grave doubt, and, indeed, recent experiments were rather in the
  1038
  opposite direction. Therefore, if we relied upon torpedo boats alone, we might be living in a fool's paradise, and we might not be taking the right measures for the defence of our commercial harbours. They were all agreed that our commercial harbours ought to be adequately defended by arrangements made beforehand. Circumstances had prevented him from carrying his own views with respect to the assistance the Navy could give by organizing and supporting local Volunteer Forces into effect; but he was ready to give his most cordial support to any steps which Her Majesty's Government might take in that direction. Ho understood that Her Majesty's Government supported his noble Friend's patriotic movement with the object of supplying, by local efforts, supplemented by general subscriptions, certain classes of torpedo boats and other craft. In the next place, he understood the noble Earl to say that, in some way or other, by capitation grants or otherwise, Her Majesty's Government had decided to give active aid to the Naval Volunteers at the different ports. He thought Her Majesty's Government were perfectly right in coming to that decision. The number of men required to man the boats which would render assistance in the defence of these ports need not be very large; and he did not think the raising of this corps would act prejudicially on any other movement of the kind. In the opinion of naval officers, it would be possible to train seafaring men in the different ports in the management of that class of torpedo boats which would be used for the defence. The Reports received by the late Board of Admiralty of the public spirit and efficiency of the present Royal Naval Volunteers had been most satisfactory; and no one could be more glad than he was to hear that Her Majesty's Government were going to give increased development to that important form of the Volunteer movement. In conclusion, he wished to impress upon the House that it was not, and could not. be considered at all to be the duty of the Government to use the Fleet for the protection of ports and harbours. It had been the policy of successive Boards of Admiralty, announced in that House and elsewhere, that Her Majesty's Fleets must be used in attacking the enemy and the

  1039
  enemy's squadrons in all parts of the world. If that were the case, it was impossible at the same time to tell off Her Majesty's ships for the purpose of protecting our ports. That protection must be provided by means of batteries, mines, and the new system of torpedo defence. He might state, in certain recent contingencies the Admiralty had no serious apprehension of an attack on the commercial harbours of this country; but there might be other contingencies in which more defences would be required.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSwished to express his thanks to his noble Friend for having brought this important subject under the notice of the House. From what he could learn from the speeches which had been made from both sides of the House, he was under the impression that the late as well as the present Government were prepared to lend the movement moral but not material support. He wished to know whether, supposing the localities provided the men and the batteries, the Government would be prepared to provide the necessary guns for the defence of the harbours? The old 40-pounder guns would be practically useless for that purpose, for, owing to the great improvements in artillery, they were only equal to the 12 and 16-pounders, and he trusted that a more efficient weapon would be provided. His only doubt was whether the Government had the necessary supply of guns fit for the purpose.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he thought the noble Earl was under a delusion as to the 40-pounders, which for various purposes were very suitable and good guns. However, he admitted that if these forts were to be armed with the old 40-pounder guns the country would be relying on a broken reed. Much more formidable weapons than those would be required to efficiently defend the batteries, which ought to be armed with heavy, penetrating, and long - range guns. He agreed that everything should be done not merely to encourage that important body of men the Artillery Volunteers, but in the way of arrangements for the forts being manned by the force occasionally. Measures were being taken and had all but been completed by the late Government to this end when they left Office. He attached the greatest possible importance to faci-
  1040
  lities being given to make themselves well acquainted with military details, such as actual experience in the forts alone gave. The Engineer Volunteers likewise were a most valuable body of men, and opportunities should also be given them to become proficient in laying marine mines, for he believed that, assisted by a body of the Royal Engineers, they would play a most important part in home defences, particularly in the defence of the ports and commercial harbours in time of war.
  EARL FORTESCUEwished to know whether the Government were in possession of a sufficient number of heavy guns for these various purposes?

TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN", LEASING PERPETUITY ACT, 1851.

  WITHDRAWAL OF NOTICE.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM,who had placed a Notice upon the Paper of his intention
  "To move for a Select Committee to inquire into and to report upon the tenure of lands held by grantees in perpetuity under Trinity College, Dublin, and the Provost thereof in his corporate capacity, and on the working of the Trinity College, Dublin, Leasing and Perpetuity Act, 1851, with respect to the variation of rent and its effect on the value of the interests respectively' of the College, the perpetuity grantees, and the occupying perpetuity tenants of the lands,"
  said, the Motion had been put down some time ago, and had been discussed, and ultimately adjourned for further information on the subject. This was the first day on which, with the consent of the Chancellor of the University of Dublin, he had been able to bring the Motion on. He was now advised that there were practical difficulties in the way of the appointment of a Select Committee, owing to the late period of the Session and the reluctance of Peers to attend. Even if Peers did attend on a Committee it would be difficult for them to complete their work before the Prorogation. That being the case, he would not move the Motion, and would content himself with giving Notice that he would take the earliest opportunity of bringing it forward next Session.

LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords,

  1041
  in presenting to your Lordships the Bill which stands in my name, I think it right and convenient to make a short explanation of the circumstances under which it is my duty so to present it, and at the same time to give your Lordships some explanation of the provisions which are embodied in the Bill. It is obvious that there has been but a very short time indeed for Her Majesty's present Government to consider how they would frame their scheme for the adoption of Parliament, and how to embody their proposals in the Bill. Under these circumstances, although we had ample material in the shape of a vast number of suggestions, proposals, and schemes, circulated in the Press and embodied in other Bills, and although I myself have been treated in no niggard manner and in no ungenerous fashion with suggestions that teemed in by every post and in every variety of methods of communication, still we had to apply ourselves to this question in a spirit practical, generous, and just, and with an anxious desire to introduce a Bill short and workable, and which would present as few points of contention as possible. We have adopted, as the governing principle of the scheme, that it is voluntary, and that the landlord and tenant are left free to act according to their own discretion, and, on the examination of their own interests, to do as they think right. This question of the creation of a peasant proprietary is no new one. It has been before Parliament for a long time. It has engaged the best energies and enlisted the warmest sympathies of the most eminent men in Parliament and in the country; and, therefore, it conies now before your Lordships accredited with this great recommendation— that it is a non-Party question; and I present it to your Lordships' favourable consideration, not from any Party standpoint, but believing that I shall receive from all sides and sections of this House a fair consideration of the proposals embodied in the Bill. Your Lordships are so familiar with the history of the question that I should not be justified in entering into any lengthened recapitulation of it. The Land Act of 1870 contained the germs of this Bill in the clauses honourably known as the Bright Clauses, which sanctioned the advance of two-thirds of the purchase money. They
  1042
  did not work so well as the proposer expected. I lay the blame on nobody, but in 11 years the Act only succeeded in calling into existence something like 870 peasant proprietors. Then there was the Land Act of 1881, which applied itself to the question in a broader and more generous spirit, and it proposed to increase the advance from two-thirds to three-fourths. For a variety of reasons, with which I will not trouble the House, that Act has not, so far as the Purchase Clauses are concerned, been attended with that success which its framers, and those who watched its career, most earnestly desired. I shall not enter into many figures; I will only give a few. Down to the present only 733 peasant proprietors have under that Bill been called into existence, and the whole sum expended has been £238,000. In the long and anxious discussions which took place on the passing of that most important measure of 1881, on all sides of the House, these Purchase Clauses were looked upon with the most earnest desire that they should work well. It was the desire of the Government who passed the Bill; it was the earnest desire of Mr. Gladstone, expressed in frequent speeches; and I well remember that Lord Hartington, in a speech obviously delivered after much consideration, said the Purchase Clauses were really the end and object that must be aimed at in all such legislation, and the Tenure Clauses were only to supply a modus vivendi until the establishment of peasant proprietors. "Well, these clauses have only worked in the modified way I have indicated. There is a block in the land market which everyone must regret—a block so complete that, until it is re-opened, it is in vain to look for any increase in Irish prosperity. All parties, therefore, recognize the necessity of opening the land market and causing something like a circulation in this great national industry. I will give your Lordships a few facts which are elementary to anyone who has the smallest knowledge of this subject. The Landed Estates Court used to sell at a rate of something like £1,500,000 a-year. That was before the last five or six years. Now the average is, exclusive of urban properties, little, if at all above £150,000. This is enough to indicate the position of landed property. I will now state the number of

  1043
  estates which are under the receivers, and subject to that expensive and costly machinery. In 1878 the number of receivers in Ireland was 437; in 1880 the number was 565; in 1882 the figure reached 81G; and in 1884 it reached the great total of 1,081. These estates are administered under these receivers owing to circumstances and under conditions which might call for examination if there was time to go into them; but I may say that they are administered at a vast and regrettable expense. The attention of Parliament has been called to the urgency of these topics on numerous occasions. In 1882 a Committee of your Lordships' House reported on the question, and that Report is familiar reading. It contained many practical proposals; but I shall only trouble your Lordships with one extract. The Report declares that—
  "There is a concurrence of testimony that no scheme for converting tenants into proprietors which requires tenants to pay down a portion of the purchase money, or to pay a yearly instalment of it greater than the rent, is likely to he successful."
  That was the Report of 1882, which has since acquired greater significance and obtained the acceptance of everyone who wishes to see this matter settled. That Report was presented to your Lordships in April, 1882. In the month following the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) stated in this House on two occasions that the matter of the revision of the Purchase Clauses of the Land Act was under the consideration of the Government. The matter substantially rested there until June, 1883, when Lord George Hamilton, in an important debate, which was joined in by Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Trevelyan, then Chief Secretary for Ireland, carried the following Motion unanimously, without dissent from any section of Parliament—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the early revision of the Purchase Clauses of the Irish Land Act of 1881 is necessary in order to give effect to the intentions of Parliament contained therein."
  In redemption of that, Mr. Trevelyan, in May, 1884, presented a Bill to the House of Commons in an important, able, and most interesting speech. My Lords, that Bill, the details of which I have examined most minutely, has been of great advantage in the framing of the present Bill since the present Go-
  1044
  vernment came into Office. Speaking roughly and broadly, that Bill proposed to give an increase on the previous advance made under the Land Act of 1881 to those who were willing to borrow only three-fourths—that is, that to those who were willing to work under the Act of 1881 it gave the money at a lower rate of interest, and gave a longer number of years in which to repay it. A greater change, and that on which attention, because of its importance, was necessarily concentrated, was the change for the first time presented to Parliament in actual legislation—although it had been dealt with in a former most important proposal in the Committee of your Lordships' House—the proposal was that we should advance the whole of the purchase money to the tenant to enable him to purchase his holding. Obviously the proposal attracted a vast amount of attention. To guard the nation against any loss, a most legitimate and laudable object, that proposal was accompanied with a proposal to have a local guarantee. I make no charge whatever as to the prudence or imprudence of that; and, until it was submitted to criticism, it could not be ascertained how such a proposal would work. Opinions at first were divided upon it. When, however, submitted to the test of public criticism, it was found that the attempt to safeguard the advance of the whole of the purchase money by requiring a guarantee was a proposal which had no chance of acceptance. Therefore, it may be boldly and broadly stated that the fact that the whole of the purchase money was to be so advanced was destructive of that Bill, and prevented it from going any further. That is the conclusion to which a full examination leads, though I make no charge with reference to it. The only other provision of the Bill to which I need refer was that to advance £20,000,000 for the purpose of the Purchase Clauses, provided that no more than £5,000,000 should be expended in one year. As a matter of fact, that Bill was not proceeded with. I myself endeavoured, at the close of the Session, to get a part of it proceeded with; but I cannot blame the late Government for not proceeding with it at that time. There were many difficulties in their way, and they were naturally not desirous of proceeding with certain clauses, but of leaving the question to be dealt with in a more complete form.

  1045
  Your Lordships do not wish to be re-minded of the way in which the question has been brought before the House of Commons this Session. The question was again and again brought before that House; and after a slight appearance of uncertainty as to what would be the ultimate decision to be arrived at, it was announced by Mr. Gladstone shortly before the change of Government that he intended to present a Bill in the House of Commons which, I think, he indicated, would, at all events, have the merit of shortness, and which he hoped would be workable and bring about a settlement of the question. It was in that state of facts that the present Government devoted themselves to the consideration of the question. Your Lordships will, I hope, bear in mind the necessary difficulties of dealing with a vast and complicated question in a short period of time, and the earnest efforts that have to be made to reach the qualifications which I laid down at the outset of my remarks—that of producing a measure that would be short, that, so far as we could judge, would be workable, and would, so far as might be possible, avoid contentious matter. The proposals embodied in this Bill are proposals which, I trust, will commend themselves to the favourable reception of your Lordships. As far as the proposals of the Land Act of 1881 are concerned, that of advancing three-fourths of the purchase money, arrangements are made in the Bill by which those who desire only to avail themselves of advances to that extent are at liberty to do so. But in the same spirit in which the late Government, by Mr. Trevelyan's Bill, proposed to give more generous encouragement, so we have given more generous encouragement to those who desired to take this limited advance. It is proposed to make advances to those tenants at the rate of 4 per cent, payable in a period of 49 years. Of course, I only refer to these matters for the convenience of exposition, for, as your Lordships are aware, the financial aspects of this Bill will have no validity until voted in the other House of Parliament. Applying ourselves to the other most important branch of this question, which was attempted to be grappled with completely in the Bill of last year—the conditions under which it would be reasonable and practicable
  1046
  to advance the whole purchase money to intending tenants—we adopt that proposal, that the State will advance the whole of the purchase money to the intending purchasers, on conditions which we believe will be just and generous to them, and will not expose the State to any risk of loss. Of course, from the exposition I have made of the Bill of last year, your Lordships will anticipate that we have not again presented the Guarantee Clause, but we have found a substitute, which I earnestly hope your Lordships will approve. We provide that one-fifth of the purchase money shall be retained at moderate interest in the hands of the Land Commission until the tenant, by equivalent payments, has paid off a sum equal to the amount so retained. That, I believe, will be an improvement and a sufficient protection to the State. It is more workable, more simple, more immediately available than any system of guarantee. We also supplement it by another provision, although I do not think the provision will ever really be required to be called in question. Your Lordships are aware that there is such a thing as the Irish Church surplus, and your Lordships may know that there is some of it left. We propose to avail ourselves in a clause which has been most carefully prepared of what remains of the Irish Church surplus, subject to all existing charges, in order to save the State from any ultimate possibility of loss. The Irish Church surplus will not be touched until the methods provided for the sale of holdings has been carried out, and until after the forfeiture of the one-fifth of the purchase money which I have indicated it is intended to retain as a safeguard to the State. Those are the general features of the advances, and those are the pecuniary aspects of the Bill. Of course, there is another matter of grave importance and deep interest, as to which I know there are differences of opinion even among those on this side of the House; and that is as to the tribunal to be entrusted with the working of these important functions. There are three courses open to the Government. We could have a new body if we pleased; we could call into existence new Commissioners and new machinery; but one must be of a very sanguine disposition and a very bold statesman to think that when

  1047
  within measurable distance of the end of the Session Parliament can be expected to regard such a matter as non-contentious, or who can expect officers and staff to be provided and got into working order within a reasonable time. The exigencies and necessity of the position—the reality of facts—prevented us from giving any favourable consideration to that proposal. I do not myself regard it as within the limits of practical consideration. Then there remains the Landed Estates Court. There are many of my friends in both Houses of Parliament and in Ireland who would be most favourable to this jurisdiction being attached to the Landed Estates Court; but again I have to consider the practical aspects of this question. This jurisdiction has been, after much consideration, vested by the late Government in the Land Commission; and if you now were to take it from them and shift it back to the Landed Estates Court, in the present state of that Court it would be to subject the Bill to further criticism, to further lengthy examination, and obviously to serious contention. Therefore, the Government have arrived at the conclusion, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, that it was wiser and more prudent to leave it where it was at present—namely, vested in the Land Commission Court, and to apply ourselves, as much as possible, to supplement and assist that Court in the new administration with which we are about to one rate it. That we have done, and we have done so in a way which your Lordships, I trust, will not think paltry or petty. The Bill makes provision for the appointment of two additional Land Commissioners, who shall hold office for three years, not at the same salary as the other Land Commissioners, who receive a salary of £3,000 a-year, but at a salary of £2,000 a-year, at which we hope we shall be able to secure the services of gentlemen of energy, of capacity, of resource, and of loyal intentions to carry out the objects of the Bill. Power will be taken in the Bill for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland by his order to vest in those additional, or such of the Land Commissioners as ho may think proper, the special working of the special work of this Bill. That is a matter to which I myself look as a very important element in the successful working of this
  1048
  measure. There is another portion of the Bill, for which I am largely indebted for the suggestion and drafting to the Bill of the late Government, to which I have already referred. Among the matters most to be desired in reference to any system for the improvement of land purchase in Ireland is to encourage the application of the working of these provisions by having some short and simple method of conveyancing and legal machinery. Tenants are discouraged, by dread of an indefinite bill of costs; they do not like solicitors, and, if I may say so, they have a suspicion of barristers. They would like some short and simple method of land transfer, which those who run may read. Power is, therefore, taken to enable the Land Commissioners, after due inquiry, to pronounce vesting orders. The Land Commission will investigate titles at their expense, and will make vesting orders which will not cost the tenant time or trouble. To assist the Land Commission in that important work power has been taken to transfer some of the able and capable officials of the Landed Estates Court, safeguarding their position by saying that it shall only be done by their own consent, at such increased salary as may be sanctioned by the Treasury. To this provision I shall look for the smooth and efficient working of the Conveyancing Clauses of this Bill. Power is also taken of appointing counsel and solicitors, examiners, and other officials of that kind, who can aid or assist the Commissioners or such other persons as may be assigned to discharge this duty. There are other provisions of the conveyancing part of the Bill with which I will not trouble your Lordships, not because they are unimportant—they are to my mind extremely important—but because I do not think I should be justified in trespassing upon your Lordships by going into such technical matters. There are other provisions of the Bill which I do not go into now, not because they are not important, for they are of extreme importance, but because I do not think that I should be justified in trespassing any longer upon the time of your Lordships. I have confined myself to bringing before your Lordships as shortly as I could the salient points and principles of the Bill, which I hope may pass into law with the sanction of your Lordships. If I may do so without presumption upon

  1049
  the first occasion on which I have spoken in this House, I would earnestly and most gravely urge upon your Lordships the great question of time in reference to this matter. I have endeavoured to take steps to have this Bill circulated among your Lordships to-morrow morning, and I hope that your Lordships may assent to its being put down for second reading on the earliest possible date. My Lords, there are many ways of killing a Bill. It may be killed by too much kindness, or it may be killed by too much unkindness. There may be those in this House who have formed schemes of their own; and it may be that I have not been able to meet the plans and schemes of all those whose abilities I thoroughly recognize; but if they find that those plans which they most regarded have no place in my Bill, and that it is not as perfect as they would have liked, let them criticize me to their heart's content, but let them spare the Bill. If they think that it is a fair and reasonable effort to accomplish a great object in a reasonable and—as far as may be—non-contentious manner, I hope that they will permit the Bill to pass through this House. With these remarks, I have now the honour to present the Bill to your Lordships, and I hope that your Lordships will now consent to its being read a first time.
  Bill to provide greater facilities for the sale of land to occupying tenants in Ireland—Presented (The Lord ASHBOURNE).
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I shall not trouble your Lordships at any great length; but I cannot refrain from saying one or two words with reference to the speech we have just heard. First of all, I hope that my noble and learned Friend who introduced this Bill will allow me to congratulate him upon his first appearance in this House, and to express to him how gratified Members of this House on both sides are to see him a Member of this House. Not only will this House have the addition of a very capable statesman on that Front Bench, but on this side we shall also have in him, not only an able, but one of the fairest opponents that statesmen and politicians have ever had in England. This subject is one which I have had to study minutely during the last two or three years. I have not had
  1050
  the advantage of the legal learning of my noble Friend; but I have studied it with the assistance of many able men, and I know that nothing could have been more concise and clear than the explanation which my noble and learned Friend made, not only of the history of this question, but also of the proposals of Her Majesty's Government. I do not think that it would be right for me to go into any detail now; but I may say that I think it is of the utmost importance that, if possible, this question of land purchase in Ireland should be settled as soon as possible, and that the block in the land market should be removed, which is at present so serious a matter, not only to landlords, but to all interests connected with the land in Ireland. The Purchase Clauses of the Land Act of 1881 were of the utmost importance, and I quite agree with the noble and learned Lord who has introduced this measure that there has not been that number of purchases which it was hoped would be the case. I hope that the scheme embodied in the present Bill will be more successful. The noble and learned Lord has asked that this measure should receive just and reasonable consideration, and I can assure him that it will certainly receive such consideration, so far as the first Opposition Bench is concerned. There are very important matters connected with it, not only with regard to the advances to be made by the State, but also as to the bodies who are to deal with those clauses, which will have to be carefully considered when the Bill is before us. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that the safety of this Bill and the hope that it will be satisfactorily carried out depends upon having a satisfactory body to work it. Unless that body are loyal and anxious, and have time at their disposal to work the measure thoroughly, I fear there will be another failure like that which has attended previous legislation on this question. I will not at present say anything more, except that I look forward with great interest to seeing the clauses of the Bill, and that under the particular circumstances of the Session that we shall not offer any opposition to the Bill being read a second time upon an early occasion.
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he had listened to the statement of the noble and learned Lord with great interest, and

  1051
  he could assure him that it had realized his expectations. The subject was most difficult and complicated, and the noble and learned Lord deserved credit for having, thus early in his official career, tried to grapple with it. The details of the Bill would, no doubt, have to be carefully considered; but as to the principle of the Bill he thought there would be very little difference of opinion. He could only say that the Bill would be criticized by those on that side of the House in no spirit of hostility, but in one of friendly sympathy, with a view of passing it, if practicable, into law.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNasked if the purchase money to be advanced would be unlimited?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: The limit of this Bill is £5,000,000, and the additional Land Commissioners are appointed for three years.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: How much can be advanced in one year?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: It is simply provided that the money to be advanced under this measure should be limited to £5,000,000. It may all be advanced in one year.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: How much of the Church surplus is available as a security?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: I believe it is about £750,000.
  Bill read 1ª (No. 184.)

TRAMWAYS ORDER IN COUNCIL (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 65.)

  REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of REDESDALE)said, he must repeat the protest he had formally made against the way this Bill had been revived as a public measure after having been defeated as a Private Bill. The House, he maintained, would do great injustice to the opponents of the Bill by allowing it to pass. If their Lordships did their duty, they would refuse to pass this Bill, and support the decision of their own Committee.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, he regretted that the mode of proceeding with this Bill had not been brought before him earlier, as it certainly ought to have been. As to the injustice which it was
  1052
  alleged would be done to the opponents of the Bill, he must say that he very much regretted the inconvenience to which they had been put in coming to London; but if they rejected the Bill, a much greater injustice would be done to the promoters of the Bill, who, before coming to London, had been at the trouble and expense of having- an inquiry in Ireland. He did not intend to withdraw the Bill, and he hoped their Lordships would not reverse the decision at which they had already arrived.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESsaid, the Bill had been inquired into and reported against by a Committee of their Lordships' House; and if they were not guided by that Report no confidence could be felt in future in the decisions of their Committees. He felt so strongly on the point that he begged to give Notice that on the third reading he would move the rejection of this Bill.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, a great injustice had apparently been done both to the opponents and the promoters. He hoped that some definite rule would be laid down to prevent such misunderstanding in future.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he could not help feeling that it was very unfortunate that an Act of Parliament under which this misunderstanding had arisen had been read in a different sense from what they were now told was the right one. It seemed to him that they had simply a choice of injustice—injustice to the promoters, or injustice to the opponents of the Bill; but he thought that, in all the circumstances, the least injustice would be done by allowing the Bill to proceed. He found some consolation in the fact that the Select Committee's reason for replacing the Bill was not so much that the proposed line was a bad one, as that it was not likely to pay—a consideration that he thought weighed a good deal too much with their Committees.
  Bill to be read 3ª on Monday next.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till Monday next, Eleven o'clock.