Lords Sitting of 20 February 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading— Ecclesiastical Commissioners * (17).
EGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—DEATH OF GENERAL SIR HERBERT STEWART AND GENERAL EARLE.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT HAEDINGEasked, Whether the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for War had any further information to communicate to the House relative to the position of General Buller's Force in the Soudan?
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, I have no further information beyond what I stated to your Lordships yesterday in regard to that Force; but before I sit down I have an extremely melancholy task to perform. I think it is my duty to inform the House of the latest information we have received from the seat of war, and that a telegram was received to-day from Lord Wolseley; and the best way I can communicate the news is by reading the telegram, which is as follows:—
  "Korti, Feb. 19, 1885.
  "It is my most painful duty to announce to you the death of Sir Herbert Stewart, at 5 P.M. on the 16th instant, from the effects of the wound received in the action of the 19th ultimo. Colonel Talbot, in reporting this sad event to me, says:—'I beg to be allowed to express the deep grief of all ranks who have had the privilege of serving under this distinguished officer, especially of those who have so lately followed him into action, and also their sense of the great loss which they, the Army generally, and

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  the country have sustained.' He was to be buried by the soldiers whom he so recently led to victory at the entrance to the valley leading to the Gakdul Wells. No braver soldier or more brilliant leader of men ever wore the Queen's uniform. England can ill afford the loss of this young General, while his death robs me of the services of a dear friend and of a dear comrade. All the other sick and wounded are well."
  I am unwilling to mar, by any words of mine, the effect of this most touching message, every sentence of which will find an echo in the hearts of all who read it. In a very brief period, the Army and the country have had to mourn the loss of two of its most able Generals, two of its bravest soldiers, and two of its truest men. General Stewart and General Earle died as true soldiers, leading their men to victories gained against fearful odds. It was by the skilful disposition of their troops that those victories wore gained, and gained all too dearly by the loss of two such Generals. My Lords, the country and the Army have to mourn the loss of two able men and soldiers whom we can ill spare. To the deep grief of their relatives it may be, at least, some alleviation to feel that their sorrows and their losses are participated in by the Army and the country at large.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: My Lords, I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without paying my tribute of respect to the memory of that gallant soldier, the news of whose death has just been communicated to your Lordships by the noble Earl (the Earl of Morley). A finer soldier never existed in Her Majesty's Service. He was a young officer who, by his own merits and his personal bravery, had brought himself into a prominent position in the Army much earlier than usually happens in the ordinary course of events. I take this opportunity, also, of expressing my sense of the gallantry and high conduct of General Earle. Both those officers have served their Queen and country with that distinction and heroism, which, I am sure, is so dear to, and animates tire heart of, every Englishman if in a position to show it. They have had that opportunity, they have nobly carried out their duty, and they have fallen in the service of their Queen and country. The Army is proud of such men, and I think the country must also be proud to see such men in her Army. I also wish to
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  take this opportunity of referring to another brave officer. I fear there is now little hope of the safety of General Gordon. I would say that these were three of the finest soldiers that England ever produced from her earliest history, and the country greatly mourns their loss. Everyone in this campaign has done his duty; and certainly no man has done his duty more honestly, fearlessly, and conscientiously than the late General Gordon. Whether in China or the Soudan, his power was most remarkable; while as to his merits we know what he did in the Soudan, and that, as to his powers of controlling men, they were most remarkable, and have never been surpassed. In his case, as in the case of the other two distinguished officers I have mentioned, I must express, on the part of the Army, my sincere and deep sympathy and regret at the loss which the Army, Her Majesty, and the country have sustained.

ARMY RESERVE FORCE—THE MILITIA.

  MESSAGES FROM HER MAJESTY.
  The following Messages were delivered by The Earl GRANVILLE, and read by The LORD CHANCELLOR:—
  VICTORIA R.
  The present state of public affairs in the Soudan, and the necessity in connexion therewith of taking stops for the defence of Egypt and for the protection of the interests of the Empire, having constituted in the opinion of Her Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of Parliament in that behalf, Her Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for the Military Service; and, therefore, in pursuance of these Acts, Her Majesty has thought it right to communicate to the House of Lords that Her Majesty has by Proclamation directed that certain persons who would otherwise be entitled, in pursuance of the terms of their enlistment, to be transferred to the Reserve, shall continue in army service for such period, not exceeding the period for which they might be required to serve if they were transferred to the Reserve and called out for permanent service, as to Her Majesty may seem expedient.
  V. R.
  VICTORIA R.
  The present state of public affairs in the Soudan, and the necessity in connexion therewith of taking steps for the defence of Egypt and

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  for the protection of the interests of the Empire, haying constituted in the opinion of Her Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of Parliament in that he-half, Her Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for the Military Service; and, therefore, in pursuance of these Acts, Her Majesty has thought it right to communicate to the House of Lords that Her Majesty has by Proclamation ordered the embodiment of Militia.
  V. R.

EGYPT—THE WAR IN THE SOUDAN—MILITARY CO-OPERATION OF THE COLONIES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT BURY,who had on the Paper the following Notice:—
  "To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will lay on the Table copies of despatches or telegrams from any dominion, colony, or dependency of the Crown, offering the assistance of men and military stores, or of ships, to co-operate with the other naval and military forces of the Crown in Egypt and the Soudan or in South Africa; also, copies of the replies which have been sent to such offers?"
  said, that they all had seen, in the ordinary channels of information, mention of offers of military service which had been made by many of their Colonies; and the report that they had been accepted had excited great enthusiasm. Ho supposed that there were none who did not feel prouder and happier in the knowledge of this conclusive evidence that blood was thicker than water, and that the scattered dependencies of the Crown considered the unity of the Empire such an accomplished fact that they desired to share with our troops the honours and dangers of the campaign in which we were engaged. He supposed that their Lordships knew pretty well the terms in which those offers had been made, and generally the answers that had been given; and he felt sure that they would all agree with him that it was only fitting that those offers and those answers should be formally laid upon the Table of the House. He therefore begged to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies the Question of which he had given Notice.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Viscount has given me, by his Question, an opportunity of expressing, at the earliest pos-
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  sible moment, our deep sense of gratitude —I speak on behalf of the Government, and I believe I speak on behalf of the whole people without any distinction of Party—which was felt on account of the various offers of military assistance which have been made by the various Colonies in so patriotic and public-spirited a manner. I should be ready to lay Papers on the Table on the subject; but probably your Lordships will think it better to wait until the Correspondence, which, up to the present time, has been entirely conducted by telegraph, is, if not complete, at all events more complete than it is at present. Perhaps it will be convenient to your Lordships that I should say that the offer of New South Wales was first in point of time. That offer was absolutely accepted, the Colony undertaking to defray the whole expense, and the troops being ready to start. With regard to the other Colonies, the offers of which have come a little later, we are in correspondence about their offers. There are many matters of detail with which it will be necessary for the Military Authorities to deal. All I can now say is that we shall deal with them on the same principle, in the same spirit, and on the same footing; and that we shall do whatever lies in our power to encourage and cultivate that feeling, the display of which we have seen with so much pleasure. I quite agree with the noble Viscount that, apart from the question of increased military strength, the co-operation of our Colonies in matters of this nature carries with it an incalculable moral advantage.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked, when the Papers would be laid on the Table? He concluded he was right in assuming, from what the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) had said, that the offers had been accepted.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that that was the ease, subject to one slight qualification with regard, to one arm of the Service. In the main their co-operation had been accepted. As to the laying of the Papers on the Table, he thought it would be better to wait till the Correspondence was complete.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: On behalf of the Army, I really hope I may be allowed to express my entire approval of what the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) has said, because I see that it

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  has been stated that the Military Authorities have been making some difficulties in this matter. I can assure your Lordships that the Military Authorities have not made the slightest difficulty. On the contrary, they have appreciated most thoroughly, and as highly as any of your Lordships, these very noble offers on the part of the Colonies, which are so highly creditable to themselves and so gratifying to the whole nation. As the noble Earl has stated, there are some small matters of merely military detail to be seen to before the whole arrangements can be carried out; but the principle of the offer has been cordially and cheerfully accepted by the Military Authorities.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREasked, whether the artillery offered by New South Wales was field or garrison artillery?
  THE EARL OF MORLEY, in reply, said that it was Hold artillery.
  VISCOUNT BURYasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) to give the names of the other Colonies besides New South Wales offering assistance? The name of one Colony having been mentioned, it would be a graceful compliment to the Colonies who had made offers that their names should also be made public in the same connection.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: The other Colonies are Canada, South Australia, Victoria, and Queensland. Perhaps I ought to add that the conditions under which the offers are made vary in the different Colonies.

PARLIAMENT—RULES AND ORDERS OF THE HOUSE (ADMISSION OF STRANGERS)—ADMISSION TO THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE, with reference to a Question which stood on the Paper in the name of Lord Oranmore and Browne—namely,
  "To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is his intention to propose any such new rules relative to admission to the House of Lords as have been made by the Speaker of the House of Commons relative to that House?"
  said, he understood that the Question was to be postponed. He hoped, however, that their Lordships would not think him wanting in respect for the noble Lord if he gave an answer at once in order to save time. It appeared
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  that in that matter there was some confusion of authorities, of whom he (Earl Granville) was not one. The authorities were the Lord Chamberlain and the Black Rod, and the police could only act under their directions. If he were asked for advice upon the matter, he would say that the Committee on the Office of Black Rod should meet and consider the subject; and it was in order that that course might be taken without loss of time, if their Lordships agreed to it, that he had now anticipated the putting of the Question by the noble Lord.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, perhaps the noble Earl, as Leader of the House, would make a Motion on the subject.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Committee were to meet on Tuesday, when they might take the matter into consideration.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that having been present at a meeting of the Committee of the Black Rod on Thursday, he knew there was only one piece of Business down on the Agenda Paper for the Committee on Tuesday; and it was desirable that the Committee should receive an intimation if any other matter was to be brought before them, as suggested by the noble Earl (Earl Granville).
  EARL GRANVILLEpromised that the requisite Notice should be given accordingly.

  EGYPT AND THE SOUDAN—THE PAPERS.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNasked, Whether the Government would lay on the Table the letter from General Gordon of the 4th of November last along with the other Papers which had been promised?
  EARL GRANVILLE,in reply, said, that he intended to adhere to the rule of asking the noble Earl to give Notice of his Question. On more than one occasion last year that rule was broken through—by himself, he believed, in one instance—and some public inconvenience had arisen in consequence. He was therefore determined in future, if possible, to keep to it.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that if the letter to which his Question referred was not included in the Papers about to be presented, he would move for its production.

EGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—THE FORCE IN THE SOUDAN.
  NOTICE OF QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he wished to give Notice of a Question which he would put to the Government on Monday. The British Force now in the Soudan was, in military phrase, in the air, or without a base, and was consequently in some possible danger. He would therefore ask, Whether it was part of the original plan of campaign of Lord Wolseley that a force should be sent to Suakin to co-operate with his force coming up the Nile; and, whether, in the summer of last year, a requisition was sent by Lord Wolseley to the Government, asking that troops should be sent to Suakin forthwith to co-operate with and form a base for his force on the Nile?

  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for amending the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Acts; and for other purposes—Was presented by The Lord Bishop of LICHFIELD; read 1". (No. 17.)
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.