Lords Sitting of 13 August 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading—Summary Jurisdiction (Term of Imprisonment)* (202), discharged.
PREVENTION OF CRIMES AMENDMENT BILL [Lords.]—(No. 249.)
(The Earl of Milltown.)
PREVENTION OF CRIMES AMENDMENT BILL [Lords.]—(No. 249.)

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order).
  Page 1, line 13, leave out from ("duty") to end of Clause, and insert—
  ("Provided, that in eases to which the said recited Act is extended by this Act, the person convicted shall not he liable to a greater penalty than five pounds, or, in default of payment, to
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  be imprisoned with or without hard labour for a longer term than two months,")
  —the first Amendment, agreed to.
  After Clause 2, insert the following clause:—
  (Application of Act.)
  "CLAUSE (A.) This Act shall not apply to Ireland,"
  —the next Amendment.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, this measure presented an admirable instance of the perfection to which the system of absolute block had been carried in the other House. The Bill, which consisted of two clauses only, had received both this year and last the unanimous assent of their Lordships; but though it went down to the other House early this Session its progress was delayed, there till the day before yesterday, owing to the objection of one hon. and learned Member, with whom

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  ultimately he had had to effect a compromise. The object of the measure was simply to extend to cases of obstructing the police in the execution of their duty the provision of the Prevention of Crimes Act which gave summary jurisdiction to magistrates in eases of assaults on the police which were not of a sufficiently serious character to warrant their being sent for trial. He now begged to move that their Lordships disagree with the clauses excluding Ireland from the operation of the Bill. The clause was inserted in the Bill on the suggestion of Mr. Healy at an early hour in the morning. There were many people in Ireland who were anxious for the Bill to apply to that part of the Kingdom, and there was no reason at all why it should not.
  Moved, "That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment."—(The Earl of Milltown.)
  Motion agreed to.
  A Committee appointed to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to the said Amendment: The Committee to meet forthwith.
  Subsequently,
  Report from the Committee of the Reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to one of the Amendments made by the Commons to the said Bill; read, and agreed to: And a message sent to the Commons to return the said Bill, with the Amendment and Reasons.

LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) BILL [Lords.]—(No. 250.)
(The Lord Chancellor of Ireland.)
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) BILL [Lords.]—(No. 250.)

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE), in moving that the House do agree with the Commons' Amendments to the Bill, said, that he thought their Lordships could not object to any of the Amendments, which were only alterations in matters of machinery, and would, in his opinion, make the Bill work more smoothly.
  Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amend-
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  ments."—(The Lord Chancellor of Ireland.)
  Motion agreed to.

RIVER THAMES (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 251.)
(The Lord Mount Temple.)
RIVER THAMES (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 251.)

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order).
  On the Motion of The Marquess of SALISBURY, the said Amendments agreed to.

HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (ENGLAND) BILL [Lords.]—(No. 252.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (ENGLAND) BILL [Lords.]—(No. 252.)

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in rising to move that the House do agree with the Commons' Amendments, said, that the Bill had been discussed at great length, both in that House and in the Commons, and some of the points formerly objected to by the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Bramwell) were also objected to very strongly in the Commons. Amendments had been introduced in the Commons, the result of which would be to make the Bill more acceptable to the noble and learned Lord's feelings. For himself, he (the Marquess of Salisbury) did not think these Amendments were improvements; but, as it was desirable that the Bill should pass, he would move that they be agreed to.
  Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that the Amendments did, indeed, make the Bill more agreeable to his feelings and to his opinions, which were those which the noble Marquess held three years ago. On that occasion he had the honour of expressing the same opinions; and if he might not venture to say that he had the support of the noble Marquess, then he would say that he was one of the supporters of the noble Marquess in the discussion on the Agricultural Holdings Bill. There was one alteration made by the Commons in this Bill which he thought so foolish and so mischievous that he must ask their Lord-

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  ships not to agree to it. One of the clauses provided that in the letting of a house there should be an implied undertaking that the house was fit for habitation. To that the Commons had added—"Notwithstanding any contract or stipulation to the contrary between the landlord and the tenant." Such an alteration was, to his mind, most objectionable. The clause did not apply only to the case of a man knowingly letting a house unfit for habitation—it also applied to cases in which the landlord did not know of the condition of the house. If it only applied to the wilful letting of a house not fit to be inhabited he should rejoice at the clause, because he would punish the man who knowingly let a house in an unhealthy condition, just as he would punish a man who sold food that was adulterated and not fit for human use. But the clause, as it stood, would apply equally to a man who might be quite innocent in the matter. It was contrary to the ordinary principle of caveat emptor—that each man should examine and decide for himself. What justification could there be for that? The landlord might know no more about the condition of the house than the tenant; the tenant, indeed, by having formerly resided in the locality, or otherwise, might know more about it than the landlord. The clause was altogether an unwarranted interference with freedom of contract, and would have an injurious effect even on the working classes, for whose benefit it was intended. A working man—a bricklayer, for example—might at present say—"I know all about this house. I know there is a drain wrong; but if you will give it me cheap I will put it all right." If the Bill passed as it stood such an arrangement could not be made, for if it were made the tenant could afterwards turn round on his landlord and say the contract was void, because the landlord was responsible by the law of the land for the sanitary condition of the house. Then, again, the tenant was likely to be the first to find out whether there was anything wrong. From indolence and indifference he took no notice; somebody might fall ill and die, and the first knowledge the landlord might have of anything being wrong in the sanitary arrangements of the house would be a claim by the tenant, who could come and say—"You were bound by law to let me that house
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  in a sanitary condition." Men might come into Court with their families dressed in mourning, and the jury would very likely say—"Oh, there must have been something wrong; the landlord is evidently a rich man; he ought to have done something for his tenant;" and so a verdict would be given for the plaintiff. The case was not imaginary; the thing had happened—that was, the claim had been made in Court. Supposing even that the House was not in an insanitary condition, that would not prevent claims being made against the landlord; and, even if the landlord succeeded in resisting the action, in many cases he would not recover his costs. He would point out, further, that if landlords found themselves liable for such claims, well or ill-founded, they might depend upon it that, acting on ordinary economic principles, they would indemnify themselves by raising the rents. The provision would also tend to make landlords object to let their houses to people with largo families, for every additional person in a house increased his risk. When the Agricultural Holdings Bill was before the House the noble Marquess objected to a clause analogous to this, forbidding contracts which landlords and tenants might make out of the Bill. The only difference between that Act and the present measure was that the one applied to farmers and the other to working men. He protested against this mischievous, grandmotherly legislation. The best thing both for farmers and working men was to teach them to look after themselves. They were quite able to do so.
  LORD DENMANsaid that, being the owner of several small houses, he thought it was the duty of every landlord to know the condition of his houses. If a nuisance arose, the tenant was first called upon; and if he neglected his duty, the landlord was even now obliged by the local Sanitary Authority to make the place healthy.
  THE MAHQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Bramwell) was a dangerous opponent, as one was apt to be convinced in listening to him. He (the Marquess of Salisbury), himself, had not noticed the effect of the words complained of, and did not know why they had been introduced; but, believing that, if they

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  did not do more harm, than good, they would be easily evaded by those who desired to evade them, and be productive of a considerable amount of litigation, he would move to disagree with the words—namely, "notwithstanding any contract or stipulation to the contrary."
  Amendments, as far as page 3, line ending with the words ("classed a"), agreed to.
  On the Motion of The Marquess of SALISBURY, the following Amendment:—In Clause 13, page 8, line 35, leave out ("an unfurnished") and insert ("a"), and after ("implied") insert ("notwithstanding any contract or stipulation to the contrary"), disagreed to.
  Remaining Amendments agreed to.
  A Committee appointed to prepare a Reason for the Lords disagreeing to the said Amendment: The Committee to meet forthwith.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 253.)
(The Marquess of Waterford.)
LABOURERS (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 253.)

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' REASONS.
  Commons' Amendments to Lords Amendments, and Commons' Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments considered (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, the Commons had sent to their Lordships the following statement in respect to the Bill:—
  "The Commons disagree to the Amendment made by the Lords in page 5, line 12, for the following reason:—Because the owner having under all circumstances a power to petition against a scheme, it would place unnecessary difficulties in the way of such schemes if a petition could also he presented by such a small number of ratepayers as six. The Commons disagree to the Amendment made by the Lords in page 8 (by leaving out lines 24 and 25), for the following reason:—Because the former clauses of the Bill are leases upon the principle of giving the local authority a leasing power as well as a power to purchase. The Commons disagree to the Amendment made by the Lords in page 9, line 36, for the following reason:—Because the sanitary authority having the means of the local knowledge is the best judge of the area of taxation. The Commons propose to amend the Amendment made by the Lords in page 8, line 10, by inserting in lieu of words struck out by the Lords the following words:—('Or may purchase by agreement any existing
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  cottage, or by agreement may purchase and allot to the occupant of any such existing cottage, half-an-acre of land.') The Commons propose to amend Clause A, inserted by the Lords, by inserting after 'lands,' in line 8, the words 'in the same locality.'"
  He would move that the House acquiesce in the alterations made in the Bill by the Commons. His objections to the change made by the Commons on page 8 of the Bill were obviated by the insertion of the words "by agreement." The Amendment to Clause A provided that landlords offering land in exchange for the land proposed to be taken, the land so offered should be in the same locality.
  Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Commons in the Amendments made to their Lordships' Amendments, and do not insist on the said Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed."—(The Marquess of Waterford.)
  LORD VENTRYsaid, that he was not disposed to offer further objection to the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL [Lords].
(The Lord Chancellor of Ireland.)
EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL [Lords].
  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Bill returned from the Commons with Amendments: The said Amendments considered (on Motion) and agreed to.

HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (ENGLAND) BILL [Lords].
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed, not insisted on.

PREVENTION OF CRIMES AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].
(The Earl of Milltown.)
PREVENTION OF CRIMES AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' REASON.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed, insisted on, for which they assign a Reason: The said Reason considered (on Motion).
  THE EARL OF KINTOREsaid, their Lordships were in a somewhat difficult

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  position, because the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown) who was in charge of the Bill, and had induced their Lordships to disagree with the Commons' Amendment, was not in his place to advise them what to do. As it appeared, however, that it would be a breach of faith on the part of the Government to depart from the Commons' Amendment, he would move that their Lordships do not insist further.
  Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Amendment on which the Commons have insisted."—(The Earl of Kintore.)
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at quarter past Four o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock.