HL Deb 07 August 1885 vol 300 cc1436-45

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

, in moving that the House do resolve itself into a Committee, said, that the object of the Bill was to render the Act of 1883 workable by removing some of the difficulties that had been found to exist in that Act. It was passed when Parliament was anxious to deal in a comprehensive manner with the housing of the Irish agricultural labourer, and contained some novel principles, which their Lordships always approached with great caution, and would only adopt in case of absolute necessity. He would first state shortly what provisions the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, contained. In the first place, it arranged that if 12 ratepayers, residing within a sanitary district, represented that the existing house accommodation for agricultural labourers was deficient, or unfit for habitation, the Sanitary Authority should call a meeting after 14 days' notice, and, if satisfied that such was the case, should pass a resolution, and make a scheme for improvement. The 12 ratepayers were to suggest the most suitable positions for the houses required. The Sanitary Authority, after having published a statement of the scheme in the months of September, October, or November, and served notice on the owner and occupier of the land which they proposeed to acquire, were to petition the Local Government Board, praying that an Order might be made confirming the scheme. With the Petition were to be sent maps and estimates of the proposed undertaking, and also a statement as to whether the owner or occupier dissented from the proposal. The Local Government Board were then to hold a local inquiry, and, if satisfied with the proposal, were empowered to make a Provisional Order sanctioning the scheme; but that Provisional Order would not take effect in cases where an objection was raised by owners or occupiers, or where three ratepayers had petitioned within the specified time against the scheme, unless it was confirmed by Act of Parliament. When that confirmation had been obtained, the Sanitary Authority were empowered to purchase the land compulsorily and carry the scheme into execution, and the Treasury was bound to advance the money, paying off the interest and principal in a certain number of years, in order to enable the Sanitary Authority to carry the scheme into effect. The Act had been found to be almost inoperative, and he was afraid it would be found, as time went on, more inoperative still. There were a number of schemes proposed; but so great were the difficulties of carrying thorn out, that very few houses were built, and, unless the Act were amended, there would be even fewer for the future. A Committee sat upon this question in "another place" last year, and obtained a great deal of valuable and interesting evidence, and upon its Report the present Bill was mainly framed. The reasons set out in that Report why the Act of 1883 was not workable were shortly these—that the expenses attending the working of the Act of 1883 were so enormous that they discouraged the Sanitary Authorities and Boards of Guardians from taking action in the matter, for fear they should place too great a burden upon the rates. In the first place, the Sanitary Authority was obliged to purchase the fee-simple of the land, and the cost of proof of title and conveyancing was very heavy, and entirely disproportionate to the size of the plot of land required, the cost being to all intents the same as if the Sanitary Authority was purchasing a large estate instead of half-an-acre. Secondly, the cost of Parliamentary confirmation which was incurred in every case where the scheme was opposed was very great. Thirdly, the rate of interest charged by the Treasury and the shortness of the maximum term allowed for repayment made the money borrowed a heavy charge upon the rates. Then, again, there were other causes which prevented the Act being put into operation. It obliged the Sanitary Authority to buy land, and build a new cottage upon it; but there was no provision made for repairing existing cottages, and allotting plots of land to them. Moreover, the arrangement which limited the service of notices to the months of September, October, and November was found not to be sufficient. It was shown in evidence, that the cost of building a cottage of a kitchen and two rooms, with all the sanitary arrangements required by the Local Government Board, would be about £70, and the legal and other expenses, including the purchase money, would come to some £35 more, making in all £105. The annual payment to the Treasury for 35 years for that sum would be something over £5 12.s., a sum which it would be perfectly impossible to expect an agricultural labourer, from the small wages he received in the greater part of Ireland, to pay in the shape of rent for his cottage and plot of land. About 1s. to 1s. 3d. was as much as an agricultural labourer could pay in Ireland; and, therefore, if that rent were put upon the houses, the rates would have to bear more than half the charge for 35 years, with the risk that if the house became untenanted, or the labourer became unable to pay even that rent, the rates would have to bear it all. The Bill got rid of many of these difficulties. In the first place, it got over the difficulty and expense of purchase by empowering the Local Government Board, with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, to make a Provisional Order to enable the Sanitary Authority to take land compulsorily upon lease for 99 years, and limited owners were given power to grant such leases. There would be very little expense in taking such a lease compared with the expense of purchasing the fee-simple, and the rates would be saved to that extent. In cases of dispute, the Land Court was to fix the rent which was to be paid by the Sanitary Authority. If the land were liable to quit rent, Crown rent, or in the occupation of a tenant, the apportionment of such rent was to be settled by agreement. If not so settled, the Court was to apportion. The owner, if aggrieved, could obtain a re-hearing of his ease by the Land Commission under the 44th and 48th sections of the Act of 1881. A Provisional Order made by the Local Government Board did not require to be confirmed by Act of Parliament, in cases where a Petition was lodged; but, instead of going before Parliament, arrangement was made that the petitioner's case be heard by the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, who then could confirm or reject the Provisional Order. The Lord Lieutenant in Council was to make rules for the procedure, the payment of fees and costs, &c. In addition to those provisions, the Sanitary Authority could purchase and put into repair any existing cottage, and add half-an-acre of land to it, or could take an existing cottage on lease. The time for serving notices of the improvement scheme, instead of being limited, as in the Act of 1883, to the months of September, October, and November, was, by the Bill, extended to the whole year. An Inspector of the Local Government Board was to report if a house were unfit for habitation, and the Sanitary Authority was to require the owner to repair it, or prevent it being further used. Anybody disregarding the order of the Sanitary Authority in this respect was liable to a fine not exceeding 10s. a-day. The definition of an agricultural labourer was revised and enlarged, and the term fixed for the continuance of the Act would be fixed at seven years from 1883, instead of for five years, the date named in the original Act. The Bill, he thought, was distinctly a step in the right direction. Its object was to provide house accommodation for one of the most deserving classes in Ireland; and it was hoped that, while these classes were by these means put into a state of comfort, indirect benefits would be conferred on all classes of society. The House had already assented to the principle by passing the Act of 1883, and ought, therefore, to pass a Bill which would give the labourers an Act which would really be workable. In some quarters a fear was felt that the measure might be used for political purposes; but he hoped that would not be the case, and there were provisions in the Bill that were intended to guard against such an unfortunate result. Should that precaution prove efficient, the Bill would, be a real blessing to the class whom it was intended to benefit. The noble Marquess concluded by making the Motion of which he had given Notice.

Moved, "That the House do resolve itself into Committee."—(The Marquess of Waterford.)

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

said, he wished to know whether the Bill was to enable Sanitary Authorities or others to build houses for the working classes, partly out of the rates and partly out of the public funds?

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

No.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

Well, out of the rates?

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

Yes, out of the rates.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

said, that the noble Marquess had spoken of the Bill as a step in the right direction. What was the terminus of the road along which the noble Marquess desired to travel? Was any limit to be imposed to the advance of money for such purposes?

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, that he must remind the noble Earl that this was not a new departure in legislation. He used the expression to indicate that the object of the Bill was simply to render operative an Act the principle of which their Lordships had accepted in 1883.

LORD FITZGERALD

said, he perfectly agreed that the Bill was a step in the right direction with respect to a subject of considerable importance—the improvement of the condition of Irish agricultural labourers. That question had been a subject of controversy for the last 30 years. A Bill on the subject had been passed in 1857, but it failed; and several intermediate attempts had been made to deal satisfactorily with the question, but without success. No doubt, on large estates, and especially on that of the noble Marquess himself (the Marquess of Watorford), sufficient cottage accommodation was already provided by the landlords. But outside those estates the condition of the Irish labourers in regard to residence was a reproach to civilization, and it was impossible for any considerable advance in their well-being to be made unless their homes were greatly improved. He hoped their Lordships would pass the Bill, and thereby give a most deserving class a chance of advancing in prosperity and comfort.

Motion agreed to: House in Committee accordingly.

Clauses 1 to 11, inclusive, severally agreed to.

Provisional Orders.

Clause 12 (Provisional order may be confirmed by the Privy Council).

On the Motion of The Marquess of Waterford, Amendments made in page 5, line 12, after ("than") leave out ("twelve") and insert ("six"); in line 17, after ("not") leave out ("more") and insert ("less"); and in line 28, after the word ("Council") to insert the words ("after hearing the petitioner or giving him an opportunity of being heard.")

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13 (Amendment of provisional orders made before this Act).

On the Motion of The Marquess of Waterford, Amendment made in page 6, after ("not") leave out ("more") and insert ("less.")

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 14 and 15 severally agreed to.

Clause 16 (Powers of the sanitary authority relative to purchase existing cottages, and allot land to existing cottages).

THE EARL OF COURTOWN moved, as an Amendment, to insert words to render it clear that the purchase should be by agreement.

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, that as this was a new Amendment proposed without Notice, he should, be glad if the noble Earl would move it on Report.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

On the Motion of The Marquess of Waterford, Amendment made in page 8, line 22, at end of the Hue, add— Provided also, that, except in the case of a tract of land in the neighbourhood of a town or village as aforesaid, a sanitary authority shall not let or permit to be hold any land acquired by them under the said Act as amended by this Act to or by any person who is not also tenant to the sanitary authority of a dwelling-house.

On the Motion of The Earl of COURTOWN, Amendment made by omitting, in the same page, lines 24 and 25.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Closing of dwellings unfit for habitation) agreed to.

Clause 18 (Area of charge for rate levied by the sanitary authority).

LORD VENTRY

, in moving an Amendment with the object of creating a right of approval to the Local Government Board against unjust assessment by Sanitary Authorities, said, that, unless the Amendment were accepted, it would be in the power of Boards of Guardians to favour particular districts at the expense of others.

Amendment moved, in page 9, line 36, after ("authority") insert ("subject to the approval of the Local Government Board.")—(The Lord Ventry.)

After some discussion,

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, that in deference to what appeared to be the sense of the House he would accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to; words inserted accordingly.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19 (Miscellaneous amendments of Act of 1883. 46 & 47 Vict. c. 60) agreed to.

LORD VENTRY

, in moving the insertion of a new clause (19A), the object of which was to enable a landowner, from whom it was proposed to take land compulsorily, to offer, as an alternative, other land in lieu of that proposed to be taken, said, he believed it would make the Bill work much more smoothly, and would also tend to prevent its being used by Sanitary Authorities as an instrument of oppression.

Moved, To add, in page 10, after Clause 19, the following new clause:—

(Power to owner to propose alternative schemes.) When in execution of the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, after the completion of an improvement scheme, notice of the compulsory taking of any lands for the purposes of such scheme, or any part thereof, has been served upon any owner or reputed owner, and such owner or reputed owner in his answer to such notice states that he dissents to the taking of such lands; he may in such answer offer to the sanitary authority, instead of such lands, other lands of which he is the owner, and which lands he, with the consent of the occupier thereof, may agree to be appropriated to such purposes. On the consideration of the petition for the confirmation of such scheme, and of the local inquiry to be held in relation thereto, the offer of such owner and the propriety of accepting the same shall be considered, and if such offer shall be accepted the lands specified in such offer may be substituted for the lands originally sought to be taken from such owner compulsorily, and such substitution shall not be deemed to be an addition to the lands proposed in the scheme to be taken compulsorily."—(The Lord Ventry.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, he thought the proposal a fair one, and he would accept it.

Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.

LORD VENTRY moved the insertion of a new clause (19B), the object of which was to insure a period of six weeks' notice to a landowner whose land it was proposed to take compulsorily.

Moved, to add, in page 10, after Clause 19A, the following new clause:—

(Limit of time for giving answers.)

"The time within which any owner, or reputed owner and lessee, or reputed lessee, of any lands served with any notice as to the compulsory taking of such lands for an improvement scheme under the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, may give an answer thereto, as required by the said Act, or by this Act, shall be six (6) weeks after the service of such notice."—(The Lord Ventry.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, that there was something fair in the proposal. If the noble Lord would make it 21 days he would accept it.

LORD VENTRY

suggested a month.

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, he would accept the term as altered.

Clause amended, by leaving out, in line 6, the words ("six (6) weeks") and inserting instead the words ("one month.")

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and added to the Bill.

LORD VENTRY moved the insertion of a new Clause (19c), with the view of enabling the rents due for sites of cottages to be set off against rates due by the landlord in the electoral division in which the cottages were situated.

Moved, to add, in page 10, after Clause 19B, the following new Clause:— Any person liable to the payment of rates in any sanitary district, and entitled to receive any rents from the sanitary authority of such district in respect of any lands appropriated to any improvement scheme, may from time to time claim, by way of set-off against such rates, the whole or any part of such rents so far as the same had accrued due previous to the striking of such rates, and are payable out of the electoral division in which such lands are situate."—(The Lord Ventry.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, he thought it would be better that the rent should be a set-off for the rates, not in the electoral division, but in the whole Union. The noble Lord's proposal would, he feared, lead to complication. He would suggest that the matter should be dealt with on Report.

Clause (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

LORD VENTRY moved the insertion of a new clause (19D), giving the Local Government Board power to order an inquiry upon the complaint of any person liable to the payment of poor rates as to any breach or non-compliance with the provisions of Section 13 of the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, by the Sanitary Authority; and also giving the Board power to enforce the observance of the section in question by the imposition of a penalty upon the Sanitary Authority.

Moved, to add, in page 10, after Clause (C), the following new Clause:— When complaint is made to the Local Government Board by any person liable to the payment of poors rates in any sanitary district of any breach of or non-compliance with any of the provisions of section thirteen of the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, by the Sanitary Authority, the Local Government Board may direct a local inquiry, to be held, and if such breach or non-compliance shall be proved at such local inquiry, the Local Government Board may make such order with respect to such breach or non-compliance and for prohibiting the continuance thereof as to the said Board shall seem fit, and may enforce the observance of the same by the imposition of a penalty upon the sanitary authority not exceeding pounds, and by a farther penalty not exceeding pounds for every day after the first during which such breach or non-compliance shall continue."—(The Lord Ventry.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, that the Local Government Board might be trusted to do its duty without any provision of this kind being inserted. He could not accept the clause.

Clause (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

LORD VENTRY moved the insertion of a new clause (19E), to prevent any person in receipt of outdoor relief occupying any of the cottages under the Act.

Moved, to add, in page 10, after Clause (D), the following new Clause:— It shall not be lawful for the sanitary authority to allow any person who may be in receipt of outdoor relief, other than medical relief, to continue in occupation of any cottage built or acquired under this Act, or of any land of which he may be the tenant under any of the provisions of this Act."—(The Lord Ventry.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, the clause was unnecessary, as the law as it stood was sufficient for the purpose. He could not, therefore, accept it.

Clause (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 241.)