§ House in Committee (according to Order).
LORD ELPHINSTONE, in rising to move an Amendment, to the effect that the smaller towns which the Dublin Corporation Waterworks supplied should receive a supply of 25 gallons per head of the population per day, instead of 20 gallons as at present, said, that, before doing so, he wished to explain why he, as Chairman of the Select Committee to which the Bill was referred, should ask their Lordships to accept an Amendment which that Committee threw out. The facts were these. The Dublin Corporation Waterworks supplied several smaller towns situated between that City and the sources of the supply. The smaller towns were supplied under separate and Local Acts, all of which were similar in character. They enacted that each centre of population should be supplied with 20 gallons of water per head per day; and that if any additional quantity were supplied a rate should be levied on the rateable value of the several towns. Some of these towns were favourite watering places. All of them were becoming, year by year, places of greater 1253 resort, and their population was annually increasing. The Dublin Corporation stated they had difficulty in ascertaining the extent to which the population increased, and what additional quantity of water was required, and this Provisional Orders Bill was intended to obviate that difficulty. It was shown to the Committee that while the supply to the smaller towns was limited to 20 gallons per head daily, the consumption of water by the population of Dublin was 38 gallons. It was true that the smaller towns might obtain additional water; but all in excess of the 20 gallons was charged for as assessed water. There was no question as to the amount of water available, for the supply was greater than the demand. At any rate, for the greater portion of the year the water ran to waste to the extent of 2,000,000 gallons daily. It was also shown to the Committee that there was every reason to hope that the Corporation debt would be paid off early in the next century, and when the witness who used the expression was questioned about it, he said the debt would be cleared off within 20 or 25 years. The Committee sat for five hours one day, and seven hours the next day. They listened to every argument advanced by counsel and against the Bill. Very few Committees had paid more attention to a Bill than was paid to this. The Committee decided unanimously to pass the Bill as it stood, and to insert a clause to provide that the supply of water to the smaller towns should be 25 gallons per head per day, instead of 20 gallons, as heretofore. It was only fair to say that one noble Lord, a Member of the Committee, had demurred; but he had not objected to the granting of the excess water. He was prepared to grant 25 gallons in lieu of 20 gallons; but he foresaw certain difficulties in giving effect to the Resolution of the Committee. However, the noble Lord had not pressed his objection, and the Committee came to the conclusion stated unanimously. The effect of that decision would have been that Dublin would have obtained what it asked for—that was to say, they would have been able to estimate the population of the small towns; whilst the position of the small towns would have been improved, as they would get what they desired—a larger allowance of water. The Committee 1254 felt that it was a compromise—indeed, they had every reason to believe it was a compromise—which might be, and they thought would have been, gladly accepted by all parties. It injured no one. There was no want of water, and, as he had said, within a measurable distance of time there was every reason to hope that the Corporation debt would be paid off. The Committee, therefore, instructed counsel to draw up a clause giving effect to these decisions. After the clause was drawn up, not one could be prepared which seemed to meet the wishes of the opposing parties. Three-quarters of an hour was spent in a vain endeavour to draw up a clause, and the Committee then had to clear the Committee Boom. The noble Lord (Lord Carlingford), who was now abroad, but who had been a Member of the Committee, had suggested that the proposed clause should not be inserted, and after some consultation the Committee divided, with the result that the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough) and himself (Lord Elphinstone) were left in a minority of two to three. The Bill was therefore left in the same position in which it had come before the Committee. Since then he had received a communication from the noble Lord (Lord Truro), saying he was quite prepared to restore the clause as the Committee originally proposed it; and he had also received a similar assent from another noble Lord who was a Member of the Committee. Under those circumstances, he came before the House backed by the originally unanimous decision of the Committee, and by the fact that four noble Lords had expressed their wish that the clause might be restored. The noble Lord to whom he had referred as having any doubt in the matter had not been unfavourable to the increased grant of water, and therefore he (Lord Elphinstone) had the honour to move the following clause of which he had given Notice, and which he hoped their Lordships would accept.
§
Moved, after Clause 2, to insert the following Clause:—
For the purposes of the eighth section of the Dublin Corporation Waterworks and Fire Brigade Provisional Order, 1874, and of the Orders hereby confirmed, the statutable or contract allowance of water to the townships mentioned in that section shall be deemed to be twenty-five gallons per head per day, instead of twenty gallons per head per day, as provided
1255
by the Acts in that section mentioned relating to those townships respectively, and the said Orders and Acts shall be read and have effect accordingly."—[The Lord Elphinslone.)
§ Question proposed, "That the said Clause be there inserted."
§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, he was informed that the Local Government Board could not agree to the Amendment which his noble Friend (Lord Elphinstone) had just now moved. He (the Marquess of Waterford) had been astonished to hear the statement the noble Lord had made, because the noble Lord had led their Lordships to understand that the Committee bad unanimously placed in the Bill a clause giving 25 gallons a-day per head to the townships. But exactly the reverse was the case. The Committees had thrown out the clause—they would not adopt it. It was so stated on the Minutes. They had now, according to the noble Lord, thought better of that action; but certainly the Bill had been reported to their Lordships without Amendment. There was no Amendment of the sort appearing in the Bill; and, in addition to that, in the Minutes passed by the Committee there was a remark by the noble Chairman (Lord Elphinstone) himself, in which he said that some of the Committee bad been anxious to put the five gallons extra per head per day for the townships in the Bill, but that, as it was contested, they could not do so. There were several objections in the way, and, therefore, they could not carry it out. The proposal now renewed had been several times inquired into. It had been, in the first place, very carefully considered by the Irish Local Government Board, who had heard an immense amount of evidence upon it. It was then fought in the Court of Queen's Bench in Dublin, which decided in favour of the Corporation, allowing the Provisional Order to stand. The matter then went up to the Court of Appeal in Ireland, and upon that occasion the Lord Chancellor, he (the Marquess of Water-ford) was informed, spoke very strongly upon it in favour of the Provisional Order. That Order was a most ample one and a most fair one, and be asked their Lordships not to accept the Amendment. In the original Act the water supply was limited in all the towns that had been referred to to 20 gallons per head per day; and it was arranged that 1256 any increased quantity should depend upon the increase of the population. It was found difficult to estimate the population; and the Corporation went to the Local Government Board to get a Provisional Order which should help them on this point. The arrangement come to was that they should take the Census of 1881, and add for each subsequent year one-tenth of the increase that took place between the years 1871 and 1881. If now the House accepted the Amendment, they would upset every Local Act which these townships had obtained. They entered into a bargain to pay 4d. in the pound for a supply of 20 gallons of water in the day. And, now, when the Corporation asked that the population should be defined, the townships put in a claim of five gallons per head per day more. There were nine townships, of which four only opposed this Provisional Order—Kingstown, Bray, Blackrock, and Clontarf. In Dublin, the water rate was 1s. 3d. in the pound. In the townships, for 20 gallons a-day, it was 4d.; and now the townships wished to continue to pay 4d., but to receive 25 gallons. That would be to repeal the Local Acts, without any notice whatever having been given of such an intention. The passing of the Amendment would occasion the Dublin Corporation enormous expenditure in order to enlarge their works. The noble Lord had pointed out that the population was increasing in the towns. He was sure their Lordships would be pleased to hear it; but that fact was all in favour of the townships, and was no reason why they should have more water per head for the present price. They could have as much more as they liked on the assessment of 2½d. per 1,000 gallons. He hoped their Lordships would not accept this Amendment, which had been sprung upon the Corporation at the last moment.
§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, there could be no doubt that this question was one of considerable importance. He had not had much experience of Committees in this House; but he had been a Member of the Committee which had sat to consider the question. They had come unanimously to a certain decision—namely, that the supply of water should be increased to 25 gallons per bead, and that that should be a condition on which the Provisional Order 1257 should be passed. That having been the decision of the Committee, it became a question as to how that decision should be embodied. Some Members of the Committee thought it would not be practicable for them to draw it up themselves; and, inasmuch as the counsel were not able to agree to it, the room was cleared for the purpose of consulting as to what form the Provision should take. One Member of the Committee (Lord Carlingford) thought it would be impossible to draw it up without clashing with existing legislation, and divided the Committee on the point; but he (the Duke of Marlborough) submitted that the real decision of the Committee was come to when the Chairman announced to counsel on both sides the decision to allow the increased quantity of water to the townships. The matter, he held, was decided by that decision, and the conclusion arrived at ultimately was not in form. Whether or not that view would meet the approval of their Lordships, he would not presume to say. The case of the townships, he asserted, was one of considerable hardship, the Provisional Order of 1874, as it stood, being an unworkable Order. The word "population," there defined, was no criterion as to how population should be adjudged, and it was therefore necessary for the Corporation to get a new Provisional Order in which the word "population" was properly defined. In the present Order, therefore, that matter was clearly defined on the principle of the Census, which, by the decision of the Law Courts in Dublin, was not accepted as the criterion of population when the suit came on between the Kingstown and Dublin Corporations. He ventured to think that when the Dublin Corporation came to Parliament and asked for an enabling Order, that was the only opportunity those growing minor townships had of getting better terms from this large and growing Corporation; and he therefore also thought it right that they should endeavour to acquire for themselves advantages which they could not hope to obtain under other circumstances. It was not the same thing as if they were dealing with a private Water Company, which required an Order for its protection in the enjoyment of its rights. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Waterford) 1258 had said that the Local Government Board (Ireland) did not approve the Amendment; but that would not prevent their Lordships from accepting it. The proposal would not affect the Private Acts of the smaller towns. The Amendment only provided that, where those Acts spoke of 20 gallons, henceforth 25 gallons should be understood. Then it was said the Corporation would have to go to great expense for new works; but it was clearly shown in Committee that the water was running to waste, and that there was no difficulty in increasing the supply. On all those grounds, he thought the case of the minor towns was very strong. The Committee having once come to a decision, that decision should be upheld, for the after proceedings of the Committee were quite irregular. Tie therefore supported the Amendment.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, the question raised in this ease, in regard to procedure, was exactly the reverse of that raised, the other day in regard to the Tramways Bill. In this case, as he understood, the Committee was desirous of increasing the supply of water if they could; but they found that they could not do so, because of existing bonds and previous Acts of Parliament. If their Lordships now passed the clause, it would be equivalent to saying that the Committee was wrong, and that the additional supply should be given in spite of bargains and previous legislation. One of the chief causes of the difficulties that arose in connection with the construction of Acts of Parliament was due to clauses being introduced in this way without sufficient consideration of the effect that they might have on existing Acts of Parliament. If the Committee had abstained from doing what they desired to do because of the difficulty of dealing with the matter in this Bill, their Lordships would do well to reject the Amendment. At all events, he trusted they would not agree to the clause without inquiring into its effect.
§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack was under a misapprehension as to the decision of the Committee. They decided that a certain clause should be inserted as the condition on which they granted the Order.
§ LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he hoped the Amendment would be agreed to, for the matter was one of the first importance as a sanitary question. Twenty years ago the Corporation of Dublin obtained power to appropriate the waters of the Vartry River. That power was given to them as Trustees, and they were bound to supply the township with 20 gallons per head per day. That was now recognized as a clearly insufficient supply, for the average supply of most of the London Water Companies averaged from 23 to 30 gallons per head per day. The Committee had reported that 30 gallons had been asked for simply as a compromise. Nothing was proposed to be taken from the Dublin Corporation. They did not require half the water, and the consequence was that a large quantity was daily allowed to run to waste. The Corporation, however, stood on its rights, and said it would give nothing beyond the 20 gallons. The Committee took the view that the townships were entitled to an additional supply, and they recommended that a clause to that effect should be added to the Bill. It was a mistake to suppose that there had, in this case, been any inquiry made by the Local Government Board (Ireland), or that there had been any Report. If it went to the Local Government Board, they would report in favour of 30 gallons instead of 25. If they passed the clause they would not be violating any contract, but would only be substituting right for wrong. Instead of allowing 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 gallons of water to run to waste daily, they would be giving a portion of it to the townships. He hoped their Lordships would pass the clause.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, if this were a proposal to give the outlying townships an additional supply of water on condition that they gave a fair price for it, no one could object to it. With every disposition to give them help in obtaining what they sought, what he objected to was the contention that a Bill of this kind, which had nothing to do with the supply of water, but only the ascertaining of the population, should be considered a fair opportunity to compel the Dublin Corporation to give them better terms than those already agreed upon as regarded the supply of water. That was to say, they took 1260 advantage of the Bill to ask for 25 gallons per head per day at the present price of 20 gallons. As he had said, he was most anxious to assist the townships to obtain sufficient water; but having listened with the very greatest attention to the arguments that had been brought forward, he had come to the conclusion that the proposal was a very unreasonable one.
§ On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 19; Not-Contents 20: Majority 1.
§ Resolved in the negative.
§ Amendment made.
§ The Report of the Amendment to be received To-morrow; and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.