Lords Sitting of 4 August 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Expiring Laws Continuance* (229); Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers)* (231); Crown Lands* (224); Telegraph Acts Amendment (230).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Third Heading— Registration Appeals (Ireland)* (226), and passed.
Report—Burgh Police and Health (Scotland)* (190); Evidence by Commission* (228).
Third Reading—Pluralities* (213); Customs and Inland Revenue (No. 2)* (220); Lunacy Acts Amendment* (221), and passed.

TELEGRAPH ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Mount-Temple.)
TELEGRAPH ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 230.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD MOUNT-TEMPLE,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it would enable persons disposed to be laconic to communicate by telegraph, at half the present cost. It would, therefore, confer a very considerable boon upon those persons who were now obliged to pay for 20 words when their messages contained less than 10 words. It was calculated that if the

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  Bill passed there would be a large increase in the number of messages sent; and there was no doubt that the measure would be a very great advantage to the public at large. The provisions of the Bill were very simple, but would be important to all classes of the community.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Mount-Temple.)
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, he could not quite understand how the Bill came to be in charge of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Mount-Temple). He would like to know from that whether the Government assented to the Bill; and also whether the 1st section meant that the name and address of the sender must be upon the message, as the name and address were now to be counted as parts of the 12 words allowed to be sent for 6d.?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (The Earl of IDDESLEIGH)said, that the Bill was introduced into the Commons by the late Postmaster General (Mr. Shaw Lefevre). When it came on for discussion, his (the Earl of Iddesleigh's) noble Friend the present Postmaster General (Lord John Manners) proposed that it should be carried with an Amendment respecting free addresses of which he had given Notice. His noble Friend was defeated upon that, and thereupon left his Predecessor to take charge of the Bill. So far as the Government were concerned, they looked upon the Bill as one for which the late Government were responsible.
  LORD MOUNT-TEMPLEsaid, he was not like the noble Earl who asked the question (the Earl of Milltown), and who had pounced upon the Medical Relief Disqualification Removal Bill against the wish of the promoters of the Bill—he had been requested by the late Postmaster General (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) to take charge of the Bill, and he had done so. Under its provisions the sum of 6d. was to be paid for any number of words not exceeding 12; and the sender might put them either in the address or in the message, sending as many or few as he desired in either.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that in Committee he would move an Amendment in order to make the Bill more clear on the point raised by his question.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

CENTRAL ASIA—RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN—DELIMITATION OF THE FRONTIER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH,in rising to ask the Prime Minister a Question as to the progress of the negotiations with the Russian Government regarding the delimitation of the Afghan Frontier, and especially as to the matter of the Zulfikar Pass and the position of Maruchak and Penjdeh; also, what are the terms of the agreement concluded between the Viceroy of India and the Ameer of Afghanistan at the Durbar at Rawul Pindi; whether those terms have been subjected to any modification or amendment by Her Majesty's present Government; and, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to occupy the Pishin Valley or any other strategical positions within the dominions of the Ameer with a force of observation this autumn? said, he would not enter into any detailed remarks on that occasion, neither did he wish to press for any statement with regard to the negotiations which might in any way tend to complicate the situation, or be inconvenient as regards the interests of the public. But the Session was drawing to a close, and very great interest was felt throughout the country in the state of these negotiations. Some short time ago the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) made a statement in the House, and it was clear as far as it went. As he (the Duke of Marlborough) understood it, the noble Marquess was not prepared to recommend any novel course. They had been informed that there was to be an arbitration, and that something was to be referred to somebody; but nothing was stated in a definite form, and now they were given to understand that that was to lapse, and that the only question was a delimitation of Frontier, which involved only a few miles of territory 500 miles from their Indian Possessions. The only question left in abeyance, which neither the late Government nor the present Government had communicated their opinion upon, was the most important of all—it was what was the

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  agreement which was arrived at between the Viceroy of India and the Ameer as to the defence of Afghanistan? These questions in regard to the Frontier were of great importance, and the trade of the country was more or less influenced by the prolonged tension at which the public mind was being kept with respect to them; and he hoped the noble Marquess would be able to make some statement which would tend to relieve the public anxiety. In his opinion, it was perfectly useless for this country to enter into negotiations with the Government of Russia with regard to territory which was 500 miles from their Indian Frontier unless they were prepared to come to an agreement with the Ameer as to the means they were to have of overlooking and watching that Frontier. It had been stated that the subsidy to the Ameer had been increased to £250,000 annually. If they were to give so large a subsidy, there should be some clear understanding of what were to be their relative responsibilities. If there was to be a recurrence of disturbances on the delimitation of Frontier like those which had already occurred at Penjdeh, they could never tell at what moment this country might be drawn into European difficulties without having anyone but themselves to blame in the matter.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I will take the various heads of the noble Duke's Question in turn, and will give to them such answer as I can. In the first place, the noble Duke asks me—
  "As to the progress of the negotiations with the Russian Government regarding the delimitation of the Afghan Frontier, and especially as to the matter of the Zulfikar Pass and the position of Maruchak and Pendjeh?"
  Maruchak remains with Afghanistan, and Penjdeh remains with Russia. So much was agreed to by the late Government, and nothing has been suggested on either side to disturb that agreement since. With respect to the Zulfikar Pass, I cannot say that matters are in a very different position from what they were when the present Government took Office. Our contention, as the noble Duke is aware, is that the Zulfikar Pass was promised to Afghanistan, and that, on the strength of that promise, the Viceroy of India promised the Ameer should have it. We held ourselves bound by that promise, and we hold Russia bound by that promise also. I
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  can state exactly what our contention is, and have done so; but I do not feel it would be equally proper for me to state what the contention of Russia is in the matter; for, though it is easy to represent your own views in your own words, when you attempt to represent the contention of other persons, of the party with whom you are in controversy, it is possible that some words you may use may not represent as accurately as they would wish it to be represented the precise views that they take. I will only say, therefore, that they do not admit our contention in the matter. I do not know how soon I shall be able to lay Papers on the Table. I am very anxious to do so as soon as possible, because it will dissipate all misunderstanding, and make the position of the Government very much more satisfactory. But, of course, it is impossible to do so as long as by doing so we might in any way compromise the success of the negotiation. I may say that the delay at present is chiefly due to the desire of the Russian Government to obtain more information with respect to the matter on which the controversy turns. The noble Duke asks me, in the next place, what are the terms of the agreement concluded between the Viceroy of India and the Ameer of Afghanistan at the Durbar at Rawul Pindi? I do not think it would be desirable to publish the whole account of that interview, because foreign Potentates, and especially Potentates like the Ameer of Afghanistan, do not understand our Parliamentary ways, and might resent that that should be given to the world which they had spoken imagining it to be in perfect confidence. At the same time I can tell the noble Duke, what I have said before, that we distinctly agreed that the Ameer should have the Zulfikar Pass as a portion of the Afghan Frontier. The noble Duke proceeds to ask whether those terms have been subjected to any modification or amendment by Her Majesty's present Government? To that my answer is easy. They have been subjected to no modification or amendment whatever. The noble Duke also asks—
  "Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to occupy the Pishin Valley or any other strategical positions within the dominions of the Ameer with a force of observation this autumn?"
  Well, this is a Question which it is

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  rather difficult to answer directly, because it contains some misapprehensions. We are already in occupation of the Pishin Valley, which is not a position within the Dominion of the Ameer, but belongs to the Crown of England. The Pishin Valley, as I have said, is occupied, and I dare say probably will be occupied, in greater force as time goes on. The noble Duke is well aware of the policy which was stated in the course of the somewhat remarkable debate which was started at the instance of the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Argyll) some months ago, in which there was substantial agreement between both sides of the House as to the imperative necessity of strengthening our Indian Frontier. That policy, I believe, as the late Government understood it, as far as I know, we are pursuing as rapidly and as vigorously as we can. No ephemeral alteration in the diplomatic situation will induce us in any degree to relax or alter a policy which does not depend upon the transitory conditions of our relations with this or that Power, and which is absolutely necessary for the security of our Indian Empire, without reference to what other nations may be doing. We have no intention to occupy any strategic position in the Dominions of the Ameer with a force of observation during the present autumn. The Ameer is an independent Potentate, and of course we could not do such a thing without his permission; but, apart from that, there is no desire to do it at present. What might happen under certain contingencies in the future I will not say; I only can speak for the present, and there is no project of the kind in contemplation by the Indian Government.

EGYPT (THE SOUDAN)—THE FRIENDLY TRIBES.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSasked, Whether, before Parliament separated, the noble Marquess would make a statement with reference to the Soudan, and particularly as to any steps to be taken for the protection of the tribes that had been friendly to us? The Question he had asked had reference to the Proclamation which had been issued by General Gordon promising protection to the friendlies.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid, to use a well-known phrase that "many things have happened" since General Gordon wrote those words-Whether there are any "friendlies" now in existence for us to protect is a matter on which I should not like to give any hasty assurance. I know that a great many friendlies were killed; and I think it probable that such as were not killed have ceased to be friendly. However that may be, no appeal has reached me from any tribes described as friendly who are now suffering danger in consequence of their conduct towards us. I quite recognize the responsibility which rests on this country with respect to vast masses of the population in consequence of what we did in the Soudan; but I am not aware that at present there is any call on Her Majesty's Government to take any steps for the protection of any peoples of that kind. I am afraid the time has passed when such protection could be given to anyone by England. With respect to the question of the Soudan generally, I will only say that it is a matter very specially belonging to the Mission on which my right hon. Friend Sir Drummond Wolff has started. It would not be for the public service or consistent with usage that I should state the recommendations which we shall have to make to the Sultan and others on this subject. But my noble Friend may be well assured that, after the immediate needs of Egyptian finance are happily disposed of, there is no subject which claims a more earnest attention on the part of Her Majesty's Government than that of the regions to which he referred.

THE NEW PUBLIC OFFICES—DESIGNS FOR THE NEW WAR OFFICE AND ADMIRALTY.—QUESTION.
In reply to the Earl of WEMYSS,
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (The Earl of IDDESLEIGH)said, that he would communicate with the First Commissioner of Works, in order to see whether some arrangement could not be made for placing the models of the new War and Admiralty Offices, now being exhibited in the Victoria Gallery, in some place where they could be inspected by architects and others interested in the matter.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock.