HL Deb 23 April 1885 vol 297 cc434-43

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF DERBY

My Lords, I rise to move the second reading of this Bill; and your Lordships will expect from me some explanation of its object, of its nature, and of the circumstances under which it has been brought in. Before I state what the Bill is, I may as well explain what it is not. It is not a Bill which deals in any way with that question of Imperial Federation of which we hear so much. It does not touch, except indirectly, the relations existing between the Colonies and the Mother Country. It is not even a measure for Intercolonial Federation in any complete and organized shape. It simply provides, as the title states, for the creation of a Federal Council, charged with certain duties, which are described and defined in the clauses. Further, it is not a compulsory, but an enabling Bill. No Colony is bound by it to join in the arrangement which it sanctions unless that Colony spontaneously decides so to do. The initiative must be taken by the Colony itself; all that the Imperial Legislature undertakes is to give its sanction to a scheme which would be ultra vires for the Colonial Legislatures to deal with on their own unassisted authority. Under this Bill five Colonies—Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, West Australia, and Tasmania—will be enabled, and are now prepared, to become federated for certain purposes. Two Colonies, New South Wales and New Zealand, have hitherto declined to join. Of these two Colonies so standing aloof, one, New Zealand, is so far distant and so little connected with the affairs of the Australian Continent, that its continued separation, if it should remain in the same mind as at present, would not, as I conceive, affect the working of the scheme. It will be entirely a question for New Zealanders themselves; their junction or their abstention will not interfere with the other States concerned. In the case of New South Wales, I cannot deny that a good deal turns on whether that Colony comes into the Federation or not. It is the oldest of the Australian Colonies; it holds a central position; it is the rival of Victoria in importance, having a rather smaller population; but a larger amount of trade, of revenue, and of territory. I do not deny that the continued standing out of New South Wales would be a serious, possibly a fatal, blow to the organization which we are creating. But I entertain a sanguine hope that the objections of the New South Wales Legislature will not be permanent. I believe the feeling there to be one rather of doubt than of hostility; and it is mainly in order to remove, as far as possible, any obstacle to the accession of New South Wales that I have inserted in the Bill the Proviso in Clause 31, by which any Colony which may on trial be dissatisfied with the arrangement is enabled to secede. That Proviso has been the subject of much discussion, and it would not have been inserted if complete agreement among the Colonies had been arrived at, or if this were to be considered as the final form which Inter colonial Federation is likely to assume. But the whole scheme is tentative; it is experimental, and, in a certain sense, it is provisional; and, under these circumstances, it seems expedient to leave large facilities for future change. I should be merely wasting your Lordships' time if I argued for the importance, and, indeed, the necessity, of some union such as that proposed between the various Colonies of the same group. With contiguous territories, with a homogeneous population, and as population increases having more and more intercourse with one another every year, it is obvious that they have, and must have, many interests which cannot be dealt with in a satisfactory way except by joint concerted action; and the only practical question is in what manner the means of joint action shall be provided. Now, I am dispensed from the necessity of contending that the scheme embodied in this Bill is of all schemes the best possible, because it comes before you with this special recommendation—that it is the scheme on which the Australian community has decided for itself. The history of the movement is probably familiar to many of your Lordships. In 1883 a Conference was held at Sydney on the subject, attended by Representatives of all the Colonies concerned. It sat for several weeks; it considered and discussed minutely every point of the proposed Federal arrangement. The result was a Bill differing in but few particulars from that now on the Table, and subsequently the recommendations of the Conference were referred to and were considered by the Legislatures of the various Colonies, with the result which I have already mentioned—that two Colonies dissented, and still dissent, and that five have concurred. But I ought, perhaps, to mention that in New Zealand the question was never brought to an issue, the Government of the day preferring not to submit the matter to the local Legislature. In New South Wales the measure was actually carried in one House, and in the other was lost only by a majority of one. I mention that fact as justifying my expression of a hope that the refusal would not be final. Now, I may be asked in what respects the Bill on the Table differs from the draft adopted by the Conference at Sydney. I do not notice, of course, mere verbal alterations. In Clause 5 the number of the Council is made capable of extension, but only at the desire of the Colonies themselves. As the Bill originally stood, the Council could not have consisted of more than 14 Members, even if every Colony joined. The change is all in the direction of giving more freedom to the Colonies as regards its composition. Without that change fresh Imperial legislation would probably be required within a few years. We have added Clause 15—a general power to the Council to deal with any matters not specially provided for which the Queen by Order in Council may refer to them; but this power of extension can only be exercised with the consent of each Colony interested. We had proposed a clause dealing with the question of expenditure involved in the action of the Council; but on reference to the Colonial Governments that was objected to, and it has been dropped out in deference to their objections. The result will be that no decision involving expenditure can have effect given to it without the consent of the Legislature of each Colony. That is a point on which they have laid great stress; and the omission, in fact, reduces the power of the Council in all cases where expenditure is involved to that of an advising or recommending body. The last altera- tion which we have made is that to which I have already referred, giving the power of secession. On that point Colonial opinion, as I said before, is divided; and I believe that the Colonists will be content, as I shall, to accept the decision of Parliament upon it. The Agents of some of the federating Colonies have sent me a statement of their reasons against it, which I promised them should be laid before Parliament. It only reached me to-day, but I will have it printed in time for the Committee. I will only observe now that since the Colonial Governments have struck out of the Bill all compulsory powers of taxing any Colony to pay for carrying into effect the decisions of the Council—which was their doing, not mine—the importance of this question is very much lessened either way; for obviously a Colony desiring to secede and not allowed to do so would decline to contribute towards the cost incurred, and so bring the whole machinery to a deadlock. Where you have no compulsory taxing power, but only voluntary contributions to rely on, the whole thing rests on a voluntary basis. I do not believe that anyone here is likely to be opposed to the principle of Federation in the abstract, and I need not, therefore, defend the Bill against attacks from that side. The criticism which I anticipate is rather on the score that this Bill gives Federation only in a very rudimentary and imperfect form. That I admit; and I agree that it would be much more satisfactory to all of us if we could deal with the question in a more effectual and conclusive manner. A federated Australia, forming, as Canada does, a single State, united for all except purely local purposes, would be a new Power in the world; and, both in regard to its relations with England and to the relations of its various component parts among themselves, the advantages and conveniences of such a complete union would be incalculable. But the thing is impossible so far as the present time is concerned. The mere difference of fiscal policy would prevent it. The Colonists themselves do not wish it, do not think themselves ripe for it. They are the best judges of their own affairs, and we must go at their pace, not at ours. It would be madness to reject a plan on which they are agreed, and to tell them to take it back and bring us a better one in its place. The probable result of that procedure would be that we should get no plan at all, and that deep and wide-spread irritation would be created. Details will be better discussed in Committee. I think enough has been said to induce your Lordships to agree to the second reading.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a;."—(The Earl of Derby.)

THE EARL OF CARNARVON

My Lords, as far as the Bill is concerned, I think there will be no difference of opinion on one side or the other as to its expediency. As the Colonial Secretary has said, it is the result of Colonial action. It is the result of a Conference held at Sydney, at which the matter was discussed, and that result is a compromise. The Bill has been truly said to be of a limited nature. It provides, in the first place, for the creation of a Federal Council; but that Council is not formed on an entirely new principle. As in the case of the United States Senate, each Colony, no matter what its size may be, is to have two Representatives. I have no objection to offer to that. The difficulty is as to the powers which are comprised in the 15th clause, and which will require very careful consideration. The 31st clause is really the central point of the whole plan. That clause gives, as has been stated, the power—the singular power—to any Colony which has entered the Union to withdraw at pleasure. On the admission or omission of that clause hangs the fate of the Bill, and the whole chance of union between the Australian Colonies. It is rather difficult to discuss this question, because two of the leading Colonies are opposed with regard to it, Victoria desiring the omission of the clause, New South Wales desiring its retention. With Victoria are united in that view the Colonies of Queensland, South Australia, Tasmania, and the Crown Colony of Western Australia. They object to the presence of this clause on the not unreasonable ground that to allow one Colony to withdraw once it is admitted is making preparation for the breaking up of the Confederation. Those who hold that view say that there was no such provision to be found in the Act for the Federation of the Dominion of Canada, nor in the measure which I had the honour of car- rying through this House in 1877 for the contingent Federation of the South African Colonies. It is perfectly true that there was no such provision in that measure; and if Confederation were a real and complete Confederation, such a clause would be inadmissible. But anyone who studies the subject will see that the powers given to the proposed union of the South African Colonies were much fuller and larger in every sense than those contained in this Bill, which is of a much more limited and tentative character. If this clause is allowed to stand part of the Bill, Victoria, and the other Colonies which dissent from it, may be no party to this proposed Confederation, and may withdraw altogether, and so the scheme may come to nothing. It is perfectly possible that that may be the result. It lies in the hands of Victoria and her sister Colonies. I trust that, upon consideration, they will not accept the view of their more energetic advisers and counsellors. I honour and admire the two great Colonies, Victoria and New South Wales, too much to suppose that either of them, when this present controversy is over, will show itself in the slightest degree unreasonable. But just as Victoria, and the sister Colonies who agree with her have the power to destroy this Union, so New South Wales has equally the power to destroy it. I have stated very briefly indeed the Victorian argument in this matter. Let me state more briefly still what I understand to be the position of New South Wales—it is that she may possibly be outvoted by Colonies whose interests are not altogether identical with her own. There is a greater community of present interests among Victoria and the Colonies which agree with her than between them and New South Wales. There is a clause which assigns the powers to be given to the Council, and the first power comprises all the relations between the Continent of Australia and the Islands of the Pacific. Now, this is an enormous power. Your Lordships should bear in mind that the great bulk of the shipping is owned by New South Wales and New Zealand—the greater proportion, I believe, by New South Wales. If, therefore, the control of that shipping is to be vested in the Council, at which these two Colonies may be outvoted, there is some reasonable ground for New South Wales holding her hand before entering into a union in which she would be irrevocably tied. The fact is, that New South Wales and New Zealand in this matter really hold a position from which they cannot practically be dislodged. I think it is absolutely necessary that any scheme of this sort for Australian Federation should be one which invites, and not compels. I do not attempt to decide which is right in this question, New South Wales or Victoria; I do not think you must look upon it as a matter of rights, but as a question of facts. It has been said that if we were to allow this Council to be formed, with the power of withdrawal to the Colonies represented on it, the threat of withdrawal would so paralyze the action of the Council that there would be no wholesome or satisfactory legislation. I do not doubt, however, that the Members of the Council will act as reasonable men; and I do not anticipate that the business of the Council will be carried on by threats and menace. When men representing these great Colonies are brought face to face round a table they will, I think, feel that upon their union depends the success of their legislation. It is both disagreeable and painful for anyone who has the progress of these Colonies at heart to vote or speak against the wish of any single one of them; and if I do so to-night in supporting this 31st clause, it is in the simple and single belief that the clause is, upon the whole, for the general interests of the Colonies. If you were to strike that clause out, you would entirely postpone for many years to come, and possibly defeat altogether, the Federation of the Australian Colonies. I believe that the union of these Colonies grows closer every year. The postal system, the railway system, the telegraph system, the coasting steamers, and last, but by no means least, those important Conferences which have been held for several years past on subjects essential, and almost vital, to the interests of the Australian Colonies, such as the question of defence—these, with many other steps, are leading—and very quickly leading—to a union, not only among themselves, but also a closer union to this country. I value that union greatly, even in the form in which it comes before us; I value it for its own sake, but still more as a stepping- stone towards much better relations with this country. I believe it is a true policy to go rather slowly than hastily in this matter. In politics it takes a long time to achieve large results. I think no stone should be left unturned to achieve a union closer than that which the Bill represents; but I am inclined to accept it as an instalment, and I look forward to the results with great satisfaction. I believe that every effort made to promote this union will be seconded by this country with a hearty and cordial feeling of affection and sympathy.

LORD NORTON

said, he bad no fear that this measure would fail; indeed, he thought it had every prospect of bringing about a growing union between all the Colonies and the Mother Country. The questions alluded to by the noble Earl who had just spoken were questions which might well be raised in Committee, and would, no doubt, be brought forward when the Bill reached that stage. The secret of the success of this measure was that it was the Bill of the Colonists themselves, and under a sense of their own necessity. A dread of Foreign Powers annexing adjacent lands, and the sending of some of their worst criminals into their neighbourhood, gave them a sense of a common danger and common interest, and from that sprung the present Bill, which had been drawn up by the Colonists themselves. Queensland attempted to annex part of New Guinea to Her Majesty's Dominions without consulting Her Majesty herself. This the Colonial Minister rightly refused to sanction; but he said, at the same time, that he hoped soon the Australian Colonies would combine together and provide the cost to carry out such measures of annexation as Her Majesty might think it expedient to adopt. Then came the Conference at Sydney, when this Bill was drafted. The intervening Correspondence between the Colonial Minister and the Agents General of the Colonies illustrated exactly the kind of Imperial consultation and co-action which alone was practicable and effective. This subject, which was of Imperial concern, and in the interest of the United Empire, was first discussed in the local Parliaments. The proposal was communicated to the Home Government by the Queen's local Representatives, the Governors. The plan was then discussed between the Colonial Agents and the Secretary of State. Legislation first emanated from a local Convention, and came to the Imperial Parliament for final approval. The Federal Council, resulting from this complete Imperial discussion for dealing with matters of common Australasian interest, was itself valuable as setting in practical contrast Colonial Federation with vague talk about Imperial Federation. The Federal Council would probably lead to complete Inter colonial Federation for Australasia, such as had been effected in Canada. This would not only strengthen the Empire at large, but increase the power of the Colonies for their own defence, removing the internal jealousies and rivalries which impeded the development of their strength and prosperity. It would be a poor compliment to such revived loyalty to treat it as something new, forgetting the same fellow-enlistment against French Armies in America. It would affront the Australians to accept them as allies. They wished to form part of the Imperial Army. He hoped the next practical result of this Federal Council would be the formation of an Australian Squadron under Her Majesty's Flag. It might be said that Colonial Squadrons could act only in local seas; but even that meant that there would be, in the aggregate, an Imperial Navy in all parts of the world. We were now witnessing how local Land Forces would combine for any common Imperial necessity. He would reserve for Committee some comments on points of detail, and would only add that, as a whole, the measure seemed a matter of congratulation on the part of the nation at largo, happily coinciding with other circumstances at this moment in the promise of revived Imperial strength.

VISCOUNT BURY

said, that the Bill was a step in the right direction; but it was rather a leap in the dark until we knew what New South "Wales would do in the matter. A Federation without New South Wales and New Zealand would be like the play of Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. He could not help thinking that the clause which had been the subject of so much comment on the part of his noble Friends (Clause 31) was a very necessary one; indeed, he thought it did not go far enough. As New South Wales and New Zealand were pre-eminently shipping Colonies, and their Mercantile Marine might be affected by the action of the Federal Council, it was not only right that they should have the power of secession provided for, but that they should have the power of claiming indemnity if their interests were prejudicially affected by the action of the Council. He could not disguise the fact that opinion in the Colonies had been unanimous when such important omissions had to be allowed for; and he could only hope that the operation of the Bill might be more satisfactory than he was able to anticipate it would be. He congratulated the noble Earl at the head of the Colonies upon the opportunity of making such a proposal, and he hoped that the Bill would be successful and useful.

Motion agreed, to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.