Lords Sitting of 20 April 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Heading—Egyptian Loan*(74); Royal Irish Constabulary Redistribution*(75).
Second Reading—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Labourers Act) (No. 2)*(64); Honorary Freedom of Boroughs (61).
Committee—Solicitors (Ireland)*(53).
Referred to Select Committee—Poisons (33).

SUPPLY—THE VOTE OF CREDIT.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, there was an understanding last week, correctly or incorrectly, on this side of the House, that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs would be prepared to make some statement to the House to-night preparatory to the statement which is to be made in the House of Commons on the subject of the Vote of Credit. It would be satisfactory to know what the intention of the noble Earl is.
  EARL GRANVILLE: It is a fact that a statement is to be made in the House of Commons on the Motion for the Vote of Credit, and I shall make a somewhat similar statement to your Lordships at the same time. I believe the Vote of Credit will be asked for to-morrow, and I shall then avail myself of the opportunity of addressing your Lordships. I may state that a telegraphic despatch was received from Sir Peter Lumsden on Friday, and that the character of that despatch was confirmatory of his own statement of the case, and in contradiction to that which has been put forward by General Komaroff. We are expecting still further details from Sir Peter Lumsden on the subject.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: Is the House to expect a further statement from the noble Earl on this important matter?
  EARL GRANVILLE: Yes.

HONORARY FREEDOM OF BOROUGHS BILL.—(No 61.)
(The Marquess of Ripon.)
HONORARY FREEDOM OF BOROUGHS BILL.—(No 61.)

  SECOND HEADING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, explained that its object was to give to all municipal boroughs in England the power of conferring their honorary freedom on distinguished men. Burghs in Scotland possessed the power, as did also the City of London; and he knew of no reason why other important towns in England should not be placed in the same position. His attention had first been drawn to the subject in his capacity of High Steward of Hull. The citizens of that town desired to have the
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  power which the Bill would confer, and he had endeavoured to effect their object by introducing a clause for that purpose in a Private Bill. The noble Earl on the Woolsack, as Chairman of Committees, had, however, objected to that course, and he had consequently introduced the present Bill, which had the approval of the Home Secretary and of the Leader of the Opposition in their Lordships' House.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

MALTA-SALARY OF THE GOVERNOR AND OTHER OFFICIALS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the salary of the Lieutenant-Governor of Malta has been placed on the Civil List of the Island contrary to Her Majesty's instructions of 11th May 1849, to the promises of the Malta Government conveyed to the Elected Members of Council by letters dated 8th February and 1st April 18G8, to a Resolution in Council 7th April 1868, and to the despatches of the Duke of Buckingham of 20th March and 16th May 1868; and, whether any instructions on this subject have been given by the present Secretary of State to the Governor for the last occasion on which the matter was brought before the Council? The noble Lord explained that not long ago the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) proposed that a considerable addition should be made to the salary of the Chief Secretary of Malta, upon whom the title of Lieutenant Governor was conferred, and to the salary of the Chief Justice. Now, ever since 1848 it had been a part of the Constitution of Malta that any proposal to make additions to official salaries should be communicated to and made through the Council of the Island. This practice had not been adhered to in the case to which he wished to draw attention. The Elected Members of Council also complained that the noble Earl's plan was only ratified by the interposition of the Governor, who gave his casting vote in favour of it, their objection being that he ought not to have exercised his right to vote in connection with a matter of local, and not Imperial interest.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that he had no difficulty in giving the explanation which the noble Viscount asked for, and he thought it would be satisfactory. The question which was brought before the Council of Malta was not one involving an addition to the expenses of the Civil List. It was, in fact, of a contrary nature. According to the arrangement that prevailed two years ago, the Governor received £5,000 a-year, which came entirely from the local Revenues. The Colonial Secretary received £1,000. Some complaints were made that the salary of the Governor was received by him partly in respect of services rendered in his military capacity, and it was argued that such services ought to be paid for out of Imperial instead of local Revenues. Thinking that there was some justice in these complaints, and with the view of relieving the finances of Malta, he made the arrangement which came into operation two years ago. By that arrangement the duty of paying a part of the Governor's salary—namely, £2,000—was transferred to the War Department, and so far the salary became an Imperial instead of a local charge. That set free a sum of £2,000 a-year upon the Civil List; and as in consequence of the arrangement the duties of the Colonial Secretary were considerably increased, it seemed fair that some portion of the sum so set free should be used to increase his salary. He was accordingly given £1,600 a-year instead of £1,000; but the net result of the transaction was to benefit the local finances to the extent of £1,400 annually. As to the question whether the Governor had a right to vote on the occasion referred to, he had to say that he could not agree that questions involving the transfer of part of the Governor's functions and the creation of a Lieutenant Governor could be regarded as exclusively local, and not Imperial.

MALTA—LIST OF THE NOBLES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH, in asking the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will cause a list of the Nobles of Malta, whose titles have been recognized by Her Majesty, to be published in The London Gazette, as was recently done in the case of a Canadian nobleman? said, that the nobility of Malta was
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  not a mushroom nobility, but had existed for hundreds of years. Many of the titles went back as far as the 13th century, and the rights of the nobility had been over and over again confirmed in Statutes by the Grand Masters; and when Malta was handed over to this country a solemn engagement was given that all their rights and privileges should be respected. It was felt by them as a great grievance that the recognition formerly accorded to them had been taken away by despatches from the Colonial Office. When Queen Adelaide visited the Island he was present, and the nobility occupied the place of precedence. Things went on in the same way until His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was in the Island. On that occasion the matter was referred to the Governor, and he understood that the Judges somehow or other claimed to take precedence of the nobility contrary to all precedent. The question was referred to Lord Carnarvon, then at the Colonial Office; and though he would be the last person to accuse his noble Friend of neglecting any matter that came before him, he could not help thinking that the noble Earl could have paid but slight attention to the subject, for he wrote back that the precedence always allowed to the nobility should give place to that of the Judges, and in a subsequent despatch he extended the precedence to the Judges' wives. That had created a very unpleasant feeling in Malta. He had been long acquainted with the Island, and he could say that the nobility were strongly attached to the British connection, and that many of them were of considerable wealth, cultivated intelligence, and eminently fitted to adorn the high station they before occupied. They naturally felt grieved that their position and their representations had been persistently ignored by the Colonial Office. The noble Earl was asked on a recent occasion whether he would permit their titles to be published in The London Gazette. Unless that was done they would have no status at the English Court. Considering this as a matter of policy, he thought that the claims of the nobility of Malta should be recognized. In India we should not attempt for a moment to refuse their high rank to the Princes and nobles of that country, nor ought we to do it in this case, because

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  we had no danger to apprehend. "What he would ask was whether the noble Earl would allow those titles to be published in The London Gazette, so that those gentlemen might take their places at the English Court?
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that there was no intention on his part, and he was sure there had been none on the part of any of his Predecessors, to treat with disrespect or neglect the Maltese nobility. They were a very respectable but not a numerous body, consisting of between 20 and 30 families. When he saw the Question of the noble Viscount on the Paper he referred the matter to Sir Albert Woods, Garter King-at-Arms in Heralds' College, who was the highest authority on such points; and he received an answer the purport of which was that what the noble Viscount proposed—namely, the publication of the list of those nobles in The London Gazette, would certainly not have the effect the noble Viscount desired. It would not, he was informed, give the possessors of Maltese titles rank or precedence in England; and, with respect to the rank and precedence they enjoyed in Malta, their status had been fully recognized. What the noble Viscount proposed, therefore, would not alter their status in any respect. The noble Viscount raised another question—that of their precedence as compared with the precedence of official dignitaries in the Island. That was not the Question which the noble Viscount had given Notice of, but referred to an entirely different matter; but he believed it was a general rule in the Colonies and in India, as well as in Malta, that official rank took precedence.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, what he wished to state was that the grievance felt most strongly was that the conditions upon which Malta had been annexed to this country had not been observed. It was promised that all the rights of the nobility should be preserved, and that they should enjoy the same position with respect to public functionaries as they had enjoyed at the time of the Grand Masters.
  THE DUKE OF EDINBURGH: Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say a few words on this matter. Your Lordships must be fully aware that the intercourse between the English and Maltese societies does not always run quite smoothly, and I think that if the
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  noble Earl, although he may not be in the position to accord entirely what the noble Viscount's Motion proposes, could yet in some way further recognize the position of the nobles of Malta, it would be a great benefit. There is one point to which I would venture to allude as creating a difficulty between English and Maltese societies, and that is the absolute refusal of the members of the club to receive the Maltese within the club. I think—and I have always expressed myself at Malta in the same sense—that that is the greatest possible mistake, and a great injustice to those high-minded Maltese gentlemen who are so anxious to become members there. I think, perhaps, if the Government could in any way give some further recognition to the position of the nobility in Malta, it might act as a great inducement to the members of the club to elect Maltese to it; and I am certain that the result would be that intercourse there would run far more smoothly, and I am sure would only tend to strengthen British rule in that Island.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, the subject referred to by the illustrious Duke was not within the competence of the Government. He was quite sure the Maltese nobility would feel very grateful for the interest shown in their position by their Lordships' House; and he cordially concurred in what, had been said, that it was most desirable that the social relations between the Maltese and the English should be closer and more cordial than hitherto.

POISONS BILL.—(No. 33.)
(The Lord President.)
POISONS BILL.—(No. 33.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read, and discharged.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in moving that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, said, that the measure was a very necessary attempt to improve the law relating to the registration of poisons. The subject was one of some perplexity and no little difficulty, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to the Motion.
  Moved, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Lord President.)
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWN, who had given Notice that on the Motion for going into Committee on the Bill he would move—"That the House resolve itself into Committee on the Bill this day six months," said, he felt very strongly that a measure on this subject was necessary, right, and proper. At the same time, however, he was of opinion that the Bill now before their Lordships was not a good one, and that it was extremely likely to harass and hamper legitimate trade. It had been brought forward without any reference to the interests of the trade or to the interests of the public; and on that ground he appealed to the noble Lord some time ago to refer it to a Select Committee. The noble Lord did not at the time see his way to respond to the appeal, but had now done so; and he had no doubt that the inquiry on the subject would prove to be of great value even if the Bill did not pass this Session. He should withdraw his Notice on the Paper, and he hoped the Motion of the noble Lord would be carried.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill referred accordingly.

AFRICA (RED SEA COAST)—THE ITALIANS AT MASSOWAH.

  QUESTION.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked Her Majesty's Government, If it is true that Arab prisoners have been handed over for custody to the Italians at Massowah; and, if so, by what right under the Law of Nations the Italian forces can he asked to become gaolers of those prisoners, since making prisoners of war carried with it the responsibility of feeding thorn properly, and if these prisoners attempted to escape the Italians would have no right to use force to detain them? He also asked whether it was true that forced labour had been employed on the railway near Wady Halfa, and that these labourers were kept 12 or 13 hours at work, and worked under the lash?
  EARL GRANVILLE, in reply, said, that he was unable to give any answer to the first part of the Question of the noble Lord, as Her Majesty's Government had no communication on the subject. As to the second part of the Question, the information of the
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  Government appeared to be contrary to that of the noble Lord; because, so far from the railway being laid by forced labour, it was being constructed by Egyptian soldiers.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.