Lords Sitting of 14 April 1885

MINUTES.
Took the Oath for the First Time—The Lord Bishop of Llandaff.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee— Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1)* (34).
Committee—Report—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Labourers Act) (No. 1)* (35); Municipal Voters (Relief)* (39); Army (Annual)* (62).

CENTRAL ASIA—RUSSIA AND AFGHANISTAN—RUSSIAN ADVANCES ON THE MURGHAB.

  QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I desire to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given private Notice—namely, Whether there is any confirmation of a telegram which appeared in The Standard of yesterday, dated from the Camp of the British Mission at Tirpul, the 7th of April, to the effect that the Russians are advancing along the line of the Murghab River?
  EARL GRANVILLE: In reply to the noble Earl, I have to state that we are making inquiries on the subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: What time does it take to communicate with Sir Peter Lumsden?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The last telegram, I observe, has come in four days.

ARMY AND MILITIA RESERVE FORCES.

  CONSIDERATION OF THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.
  Order of the Day for the consideration of the Queen's Message of the 26th of March last, read.
  Message considered accordingly.
  EARL GRANVILLE: In rising to make the Motion which stands in my name, I feel that your Lordships will consider, after what took place in "another place" last night, it will not be desirable on this occasion for me to make a statement as to the policy of Her Majesty's Government. At the same time, I may say that steps have been taken which will necessitate some action on the part of the House of Commons, but until that step be taken it will not be right to make any statement in this House; but I will take care when the proper time arrives that a similar declaration shall be made to your Lordships. I believe I should be safe upon this occasion in asking your Lordships to express approval of the Proclamation of Her Majesty. But we think it better to follow the precedent of the late Government, and merely to ask your

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  Lordships to thank Her Majesty for the information which has been given to us. It will be satisfactory to your Lordships to know that the measure taken under this Proclamation will entirely meet all the requirements which have been made by the Indian Government.
  Moved "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for informing this House that the present state of public affairs and the extent of the demands on the military forces of Her Majesty for the protection of the interests of the Empire having constituted, in the opinion of Her Majesty, a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of Parliament in that behalf, Her Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for Her Military service, and that, therefore, in pursuance of those Acts, Her Majesty has thought it right to communicate to the House of Lords that Her Majesty is about to cause Her Reserve Force and Her Militia Reserve Force, or such part thereof as Her Majesty shall from time to time think necessary, to be called out for permanent service."—(The Earl Granville.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, obviously I think there can be no doubt of your unanimous response to the proposal of the noble Earl; and, indeed, if he had asked us to assent to the issuing of the Proclamation our response would, I think, have been given with equal heartiness. As to the noble Earl's observations with which he prefaced his Motion, I will say that I believe that not only the two Houses of Parliament, but the public generally, look with the greatest anxiety for a clear statement of the policy which Her Majesty's Government will think it their duty to pursue. We do not desire to press for it in a manner which will interfere with the interests of the Public Service, or with the very grave decision which it is incumbent upon the Government at this moment to form. Subject to that observation, I will only add that I hope the information which the noble Earl foreshadows may come as early as possible.
  Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.
  Ordered, That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

NAVY (ADMINISTRATION)—THE ACCOUNTANT GENERAL OF THE NAVY.

  QUESTION.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether there is any truth in the report
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  that the present Accountant General of the Navy, who was only appointed three years ago, is to be compulsorily pensioned, and that a gentleman unconnected with the Admiralty is to be appointed in his place; and, if so, whether this arises from the incapacity of other officials in the Admiralty to fulfil the duties of Accountant General; and whether, unless this is not the case, the appointment of a stranger to that office will not be contrary to precedent, a wrong to the officials in the Admiralty, and a loss of public money?
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that the way in which the Question of the noble Lord had been put did not give a correct impression as to what had taken place. When Mr. Hamilton, now Sir Robert Hamilton, vacated the office of Accountant General, Mr. Willis, the Deputy Accountant General, was appointed. Mr. Willis was an excellent public servant; but being then above 60 years of age he was appointed on the distinct understanding that after filling the office for three years he should be retired at the option of the First Lord of the Admiralty. That time having arrived, he would now retire, and Mr. Fitzgerald had been appointed to succeed him. Mr. Fitzgerald was not in the Department of the Accountant General, and the noble Lord asked him whether it was not contrary to precedent to appoint a stranger to the Department to the office. It was not so, for the office had frequently been filled by gentlemen who had had no previous connection with the Department. A striking instance was that of Sir Robert Hamilton himself, who was appointed from the Audit Office. So far as the qualifications of Mr. Fitzgerald were concerned, he could speak from personal knowledge, as he had known him for many years in different Departments. When at the War Office in 1861, Mr. Fitzgerald was one of the clerks in charge of the Army Estimates. He was afterwards sent to India to assist in arranging the system of account, having been specially selected for the service; and for many years he filled a responsible office there with great credit to himself and advantage to the public. Subsequently he was chosen to fill a most important office connected with accounts and, finance in Egypt. From his own personal knowledge of Mr. Fitzgerald, as

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  well as from the reports of his conduct both in India and Egypt, he believed that no man in the Public Service was better qualified by experience and general knowledge of accounts than Mr. Fitzgerald. Therefore, he was satisfied that the appointment was very much for the public interest. He was of opinion that where it was possible, consistently with the public interest, appointments such as that under discussion should be given to gentlemen in the Public Service and not to outsiders; but it would be detrimental to the Public Service if it was held that particular appointments were to be filled by gentlemen serving in those particular Departments. As long as an officer was in the Public Service generally his qualifications should be considered, and not merely the qualifications of those within the Department; and, however excellent the officers in the Accountant General's Department were at the present time, he believed that Mr. Fitzgerald, from his experience and general acquaintance with accounts, had claims for the appointment superior to any of them.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEread a statement showing that the precedents as to appointments to the office of Accountant General of the Admiralty were not as stated by the noble Earl, as, with one exception, that office had been filled from officials of old standing in the Admiralty. He thought that Mr. Willis should not have been superseded, as he was quite able and willing to perform the duties of the Department. He would, however, be retired upon a pension of about £1,000 a-year, and, also, should Mr. Fitzgerald retire in a few years, there would again be a pension for him. The noble Earl's statement would go to show that he had made use of an opportunity for providing a snug place for an old friend.

POST OFFICE—TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH HONG KONG.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked, Whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been directed to the fact that the sole method of telegraphic communication with Hong Kong and some other British settlements in the East is by wires passing through a territory in the possession of a foreign Power; and
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  whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to adopt immediate measures to insure the safety of intercourse by electric telegraph with those parts? The noble Viscount said, he was not quite sure whether he was correct in his statement of the facts; but he thought the matter one of sufficient importance to justify him in giving the Government an opportunity of making a statement on the subject.
  THE EARL OF DERBY,in reply, said, the noble Viscount was probably aware that there were two alternative lines of telegraphic communication between this country and Hong Kong. One of those lines passed through Russian territory in Siberia and down the Chinese Coast to Hong Kong; the other—the route more generally used—was from England to Singapore, and then through the Straits Settlement to Saigon and thence to Hong Kong. Thus the noble Viscount would perceive that those lines, though they passed through foreign territory, yet did not pass through the territory of the same Power; and that if by any unfortunate event communication by one line was cut off there would still remain the other. He did not, of course, deny the disadvantage of not having a line of communication in their own hands; but he need not point out that there was a material difference between having only one line of communication passing through the territory of a Foreign Power and having two alternative routes passing through different States. There was at the present time under the consideration of the authorities a proposal to make a line direct from Singapore to Hong Kong. That proposal was being considered by the various Departments concerned; but he understood, and, indeed, was authorized by his noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty to say, that the Naval Authorities, while not denying that such a line would be useful, did not regard it as of primary urgency, and they considered that the expenditure which would be involved might be more usefully incurred elsewhere. At the same time, that was the opinion of only one of the Departments concerned, and no final decision had been come to by the Government as a whole. But there were two matters that must be considered. In the first place, the expense of maintaining the line between Singapore and Hong Kong would be very

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  heavy—about £20,000 a-year; in the nest place, even if they made that line it would not serve the purpose in view—namely, that of having a line of telegraphic communication that did not pass through foreign territory. Unless they had also an independent line of communication to Gibraltar and Malta, the object of the proposal to create an entirely independent line to Hong Kong would not be obtained.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that this question of submarine telegraphs ought not to be considered simply and solely on the ground as to whether the line would pay commercially. It must be remembered that these stations were valuable to this country, not only as great commercial emporia, but they were great military and naval coaling stations. He did not understand one remark of the noble Earl; he had spoken as if there were no direct submarine telegraph between England, Gibraltar, and Malta. So far as he (the Earl of Carnarvon) understood it, there was such communication, for he himself had seen it at work. He wished to call attention to an important point in connection with this matter; and that was the extreme importance at this particular moment of the Government taking every precaution in their power against these submarine telegraphs being exposed to greater risks than necessary. It should be remembered that most of their commercial transactions at the present time were begun in the first instance by telegraph, and also that nearly all these lines were worked and managed by English capital. Commercially and politically, therefore, they were English property, and deserved every consideration at the hands of the Government. But what he wished more particularly to point out was that these submarine lines were in times of war exposed to special and peculiar risks. While in the development of modern science they could be easily repaired, yet it was necessary that stores of material should be close at hand and available. He sincerely trusted that during a time of peace, when the Government had full opportunity of making preparations, they had taken the necessary steps to secure an available supply of stores. There was not a large stock of telegraphic cable in this country; but it could be manufactured
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  very rapidly when a certain stage of the proceedings had been arrived at. The matter was a delicate one; but he thought it right to remind the House and the country that in 1878, when there were great alarms as to a Russian war, the Russian Government, who were, perhaps, more alive to the circumstances of the case than we generally were, had taken measures for cutting the submarine cables, and for equipping ships for that special purpose. It was said at the time and on good authority, and was generally believed, that there was a carefully elaborated scheme for taking measures against our submarine cables in the Eastern waters. It was quite right to mention these matters now, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government had not been blind to the difficulty and danger of leaving them unprovided for; but that while they had had the opportunity and a full warning they had taken those steps and those measures which might be necessary to provide against this danger.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that the question to which the noble Earl referred was of a somewhat delicate character, and that if he thought it necessary to bring the matter to the notice of the Government it would have been more advisable to do so by means of a private communication. If by making these remarks the noble Earl meant to imply that those who were responsible for such matters were not alive to their importance, he was quite mistaken. What his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Derby) had said with regard to the telegraphic communication in question was perfectly correct. No doubt there was a line almost entirely in English hands to Gibraltar and Malta, and so on to Hong Kong and Shanghai. In regard to the route from Singapore to Hong Kong, there were two lines—one through Russia, and the other submarine touching at Saigon. Under the circumstances of the case, it appeared to the Admiralty—that was the advice which they thought it desirable to give to the Colonial Office—that if a subsidy was to be given for the construction of a new line of telegraph, there were other lines of communication of greater importance than this peculiar line. He could assure the noble Earl that he was quite mistaken in supposing that the

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  Government were not alive to the general subject. He did not understand what had been said by his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) was intended to dispute that these submarine communications had other importance than that of mere commercial lines, and the Government were by no means blind to that fact.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the noble Earl (the Earl of North-brook) had applied a rather severe measure of interpretation to the language of his noble Friend. In the first place, the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) not only did not say that there was a submarine line to Gibraltar, but exactly the reverse.
  THE EARL OF DERBYwas understood to say that he stated, in reply to the noble Viscount (Viscount Sidmouth), that there was no independent line to Gibraltar and Malta.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that another point on which the noble Earl entirely misunderstood his noble Colleague was on the question whether commercial considerations were to be of predominant weight in these matters. The Secretary of State for the Colonies had distinctly stated, as a ground for not making this submarine line to Hong Kong, that it would cost £20,000 a-year. That was the very commercial consideration which the First Lord of the Admiralty had repudiated. There was a peculiar point with respect to this question of submarine lines; and he did not know whether it had attracted the attention of the noble Earl (Earl Granville)—namely, whether it had been decided that a neutral's duty was fulfilled if he conveyed warlike messages of a belligerent by telegraph through his territories? If there was any doubt on that point, of course the question of submarine lines would become very important. He had heard it raised, and he was not aware whether it had been decided or not. He could easily imagine that if the neutrality of any Power towards us was not very benevolent the difficulty might arise.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.