Lords Sitting of 23 October 1884

Preamble
THE PARLIAMENT, which had been Prorogued successively from the 14th August, 1884, to the 15th September; thence to the 23rd October, met this day for the despatch of Business.
The Session was opened by Commission.
THE HOUSE being met;
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House,
"That it not being convenient for Her Majesty to be personally here present this day, She has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared, in order to the holding of this Parliament."
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Then Five of the LORDS COMMISSIONERS—namely, The LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR; The LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Lord Carlingford); The EARL OF KIMBERLEY (Secretary of State for India); The LORD CHAMBERLAIN (The Lord Kenmare); and The LORD MONSON (Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard)—being in their Robes, and seated on a Form placed between the Throne and the Woolsack, commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod to let the COMMONS know "The Lords Commissioners desire their immediate Attendance in this House to hear the Commission read."
Who being at the Bar, with their Speaker:—The Commission was read by the Clerk:—Then

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR delivered HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH to both Houses of Parliament, as follows:—
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"I HAVE brought you together after a recess unusually short, in order that you may be enabled at once to give your further consideration to the great subject of the representation of the people in Parliament.
"I continue to maintain relations of amity with all foreign Powers.
"The information received from the Soudan includes painful uncertainties; but the energy, courage, and resource, conspicuously displayed by General Gordon in the successful defence of Khartoum, deserve my warm recognition.
"The advance of my troops to Dongola has for its object the rescue and security of that gallant officer, and of those who have so faithfully co-operated with him.
"In Egypt itself I am using my best endeavours to promote further improvement; and I have given my support to the Egyptian Government in the difficult financial position in which it has been left through the failure of the recent Conference.
"I have to regret that circumstances have occurred on the south-western frontier of the Transvaal which demand my vigilant attention. In conjunction with the Government of the Cape Colony I am engaged in considering the means which may be required to secure the faithful observance of the Convention of the present year.
"Papers on this subject will be presented to you at an early date.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"The operations in the Soudan will render it necessary to ask from you a further pecuniary provision.
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"The Bill for the extension of the Parliamentary Franchise will at once be introduced.
"In conclusion, I humbly and most anxiously trust that the blessing of Almighty God may attend upon your labours."
Then the Commons withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
PRAYERS.
ROLL OF THE LORDS—Garter King of Arms attending, delivered at the Table (in the usual manner) a List of the Lords Temporal in the Sixth Session of the Twenty-second Parliament of the United Kingdom: The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

SELECT VESTRIES.
Bill, pro formâ, read 1a.

PARLIAMENT — BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.—OBSERVATIONS.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I may take this opportunity of acquainting your Lordships as to what the Government think will be the most convenient course to adopt with regard to the meeting of the House after the Address has been agreed to this evening, which I trust will be the case. Her Majesty's Government have no Business to bring before your Lordships; but Notice of a Question has been given by a noble and gallant Lord to-day, which he does not mean to put until the First Lord of the Admiralty returns to this country. Therefore, if it is convenient to your Lordships, I shall this evening move the adjournment of the House to Monday week, the 3rd of November.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have no objection whatever to the proposal of the noble Earl. I understand there is likely to be some Business of interest on Monday week; but that before that time there will not be any.

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH. ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
The QUEEN'S SPEECH reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR.
LORD BELPER (who wore the uniform of the South Notts Yeomanry), in rising to move an Address in reply to Her Majesty's Gracious Speech from the Throne, said: My Lords, in rising to address myself to the Motion which has been placed in my hands, I feel how much I stand in need of the kind indulgence and generous support of this House. Not only because I know how important is the occasion on which we are met together this evening, and how grave are the issues which depend on the decision which you will give on the measure brought before you, but because I am deeply conscious that I cannot call to my aid that eloquence or those powers of expression which have so often distinguished those who have performed this duty on previous occasions. My Lords, I am aware that there is a wide diversity of opinion on the principal measure for the consideration of which the Session is held, and I will endeavour to the utmost of my power to avoid saying anything to intensify any feeling that already exists. I am deeply sensible of the responsibility which devolves upon me; and I can assure you it will be my earnest endeavour not to use any expression which can tend, in the remotest way, to interfere with the calm and deliberate judgment of the House, or to adopt a tone calculated to impede, even for the shortest time, what I hope will be a speedy and a satisfactory settlement of the question. If I have any claim to stand in the position I do, I can only find it in the fact that, believing, as I do, that there is a strong, earnest, and spontaneous feeling in the country in favour of this measure, I have given my cordial support to Her Majesty's Government in the course they have pursued. May I add that I believe I am one of the oldest supporters of the principle of the measure in your Lordships' House, because I had the opportunity of supporting its principle on the first occasion when it was introduced by Mr. Trevelyan in a Resolution in the other House of Parliament in favour of household suffrage; and I naturally, therefore, take a very warm interest in its prospects. Your Lord-
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ships cannot be surprised that the Government have summoned Parliament at this unusual period, when you consider not only the nature of the measure which will be brought before you, but how fully and amply it has been discussed in the country, and that the other House has already passed it by a large and even an overwhelming majority. Although the course adopted in summoning Parliament now is unusual, it is not without precedent or a parallel, for I may remind your Lordships that, at the period of the first Reform Bill, Parliament was called together in December, 1831, under almost identical circumstances. I do not know whether there are any of your Lordships who can recall the circumstances of that Bill; but I believe I am correct in stating that it had been rejected by your Lordships' House, and Parliament was called together, after a Recess of two months' duration, under circumstances very similar to the present. If the precedent is important, it is because there are points of difference between the two occasions which it is requisite to consider. In the two months' preceding the Session of 1831 there was great excitement in the country, which had culminated in disorder that had resulted in the destruction of property, and even in the loss of life; and in the Speech from the Throne it was, unfortunately, necessary to call attention to those disorders, and to ask Parliament to take measures to put a stop to them. During the last two months there has certainly been excitement and interest, if this can be judged from the number of meetings which have been held and the large number of people attending those meetings. But, until 10 days ago, there was not a single case of disorder or riot; and I am sure it will be a matter of profound regret to your Lordships, and especially to those on the Ministerial side of the House, that there should have been any occasion on which a meeting legally assembled should have been disturbed by riot or disorder. Undoubtedly, the meetings have been of great importance on one side and on the other; but, putting aside those where large audiences were attracted by distinguished orators, it will be found that there has been a demonstration of earnest feeling, especially on the part of the unenfranchised classes, who have assembled in large masses to ask your Lordships' to pass

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the second reading of the Bill. These demonstrations have been made, with one or two exceptions, with moderation, and without disorder; and, I trust that that consideration will do something to assist your Lordships in coming to a calm and deliberate decision. There is another difference between 1831 and the present time. In 1831 the measure was conscientiously opposed by many who believed that it was too strong and sweeping a measure, and that its consequences would be disastrous to the country, and, perhaps, the Constitution as well; but, with respect to the present measure, it can truly be said that if it has not met with much approval from those who oppose it, its principle, at least, has received a general assent. Even by those who have thought it their duty to oppose it, the acknowledgment has been made that, sooner or later, the principle of household suffrage in counties will have to be conceded. If that is so, if both sides are so far agreed upon the principle of the measure, surely there ought to be no obstacle to the settlement of the question, which may not be surmounted by judgment and prudence. I am quite aware that a clear and distinct issue has been taken by noble Lords opposite, and by the Opposition in the other House of Parliament; they have said that it is an incomplete measure, and that they do not wish to give the Government the power which would be given to them if the Franchise Bill were passed without redistribution, or without any security that the redistribution scheme will be a fair and just measure. Parliament having been called together now to give "further consideration to the great subject of the representation of the people in Parliament," it is impossible to ignore the issue which has been raised by noble Lords opposite—which has been discussed at every public meeting from one end of England to the other; but if I do allude to it, it is because, in the calmer atmosphere which should prevail in this House, we can take our stand on a somewhat higher ground than is possible to those who have been addressing crowded meetings of enthusiastic supporters from Party platforms. In this spirit I will ask whether there is a single Member of your Lordships' House who sincerely and conscientiously believes that, if this Bill were read a second time in this House, Her Majesty's
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Government would make use of the power given to them by their majority in the other House to force an unfair measure of redistribution through Parliament? I do not believe that any of your Lordships can think so. For myself, it is needless to say that, standing in the position which I occupy, I have full confidence in the intentions of Her Majesty's Government. I will go further, and will venture to say that there is no statesman, whether he represents the Party on that side of the House or on this, who, having given deliberate pledges to the country, with a knowledge of the grave responsibility resting upon him, in a crisis like the present, would deliberately make use of his majority for passing through either House a Bill which does not fairly represent the interests of the country, or which will give one section of the community a larger power of voting than they are entitled to; and that he would do that, on the chance of getting a temporary Party advantage, with the certainty of alienating from himself a large section of moderate and fair-minded men. If a majority of this House can trust the fair intentions of the Government, surely the solution of this question should be neither distant nor difficult. If we are agreed on the principle of the Bill, if we are agreed that a moderate and a fair measure of redistribution must be passed; if the majority of this House, or a considerable section of this House, are satisfied that the Government will attempt to deal fairly with redistribution, or if it should be possible to give such security to those who are not satisfied as to enable them to accept the measure which is now introduced, I do venture to express a confident hope that your Lordships will accede to what I believe is a very strong and a growing feeling in the country — that the Bill should pass into law without any further delay.
I have dwelt at some length on the question, because it is one of the most important matters which has been brought under your Lordships' attention on the present occasion; but, if public interest has been somewhat engrossed by this question at home, certainly affairs abroad require your Lordships' attention. At the present moment, an Expedition, almost of a novel kind, has been despatched to the inte-

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rior of Africa. I believe that in the General who has been chosen to command that Expedition—Lord Wolseley—your Lordships have a guarantee and a security that every precaution will be taken to insure for that Expedition a satisfactory result. I think I need hardly recall your Lordships' minds to the circumstances under which General Gordon was sent out. He went out from this country, at almost a moment's notice, to rescue the garrisons of the Soudan, which were cut off from all help from outside. He went there with Colonel Stewart, with a simple and unquestioning devotion to the call of duty, knowing only how great were the dangers and difficulties before him. Since he arrived in Khartoum, we have had very little information to enable us to say exactly what has taken place there. But I think we may certainly gather this from the telegrams which have been received, and from the information which has reached us in other ways — that soon after General Gordon reached Khartoum he found it was impossible, with the resources at his disposal, to rescue those whom he was sent out to save; and, knowing that, he determined that he would not desert them. He took measures to fortify Khartoum, and we know how successfully he carried them out. He not only repulsed the attacks of the Mahdi's forces, but he was even able to carry the war into the enemy's country, and to bombard, if not to recapture, Berber. I need not dwell on the character and the career of General Gordon; but I do not believe there ever was an enterprize which depended more for its success on the personal qualities of one man. The success which General Gordon has attained is owing, not only to his knowledge of the character of the Natives, but also to his own great personal influence and courage. I am sure your Lordships all hope that the Expedition which has now started to relieve him will meet with complete success. But, as the Speech from the Throne says, there are, unfortunately, painful uncertainties in regard to the information which has been received from the Soudan. Foremost among them is the report which has reached us of the murder of Colonel Stewart. I feel that all the Members of your Lordships' House will join in a fervent hope that that report may not be confirmed; that
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Colonel Stewart's life has been spared; and that he may return with General Gordon to receive the well-deserved thanks of his country.
The Speech from the Throne goes on to refer to the internal affairs of Egypt; and I am sure that your Lordships will cordially agree with Her Majesty's Government in the announcement that Her Majesty has given her support to the Government of Egypt in the difficult financial position of that country. Your Lordships naturally know that Lord Northbrook has been sent out to inquire into the financial affairs of Egypt, and that he has not yet returned; and your Lordships will await with anxiety the measures which may be proposed on his return; but I will venture to say that this country, having undertaken a grave responsibility in Egypt, and having made great sacrifices since the first occupation, will support Her Majesty's Government in any measure they may consider necessary to improve the government of that country.
There is one other subject which I should not like to pass over without comment. The last paragraph in the Speech from the Throne states that Her Majesty regrets the circumstances which have occurred on the South-Western Frontier of the Transvaal. Some months ago a final Convention was made with the Boers of the Transvaal, and it was our hope that we should not so soon have heard of new difficulties in that country. I venture to think, in treating with the Transvaal, Her Majesty's Government made every concession which was possible under the circumstances. They allowed the boundaries to be enlarged, and also showed that they were willing to meet any difficulty which might arise in a just and liberal spirit. It must, therefore, be with deep regret that your Lordships will have heard of the circumstances which have now occurred in the neighbouring country. It appears that a band of freebooters has invaded the territory of a friendly Chief, who is under our protection, have killed his people, have plundered him, and have also murdered the English Resident. Moreover, Montsioa has been forced into a Treaty, which places him entirely at the mercy of the Transvaal Government. It is satisfactory to know, however, that the Transvaal Government have now withdrawn the Proclamation

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with regard to the annexation of the country of Montsioa, that Mr. Joubert has resigned, and that he has made a strong protest against the illegal action of the Transvaal Government. More than that, it appears that the feeling in the Cape Colony, not only amongst the English, but amongst the Dutch, supports our view; and, therefore, it is satisfactory to know that the authorities of the Colony have agreed with Her Majesty's Government to take steps which will put an end to these illegal proceedings. Your Lordships will not wish to show any feeling of revenge for what has occurred; but the country, I think, will demand that the Convention which was made with the Boers a few months ago shall be absolutely and entirely respected and maintained.
In conclusion, I have only to thank your Lordships for the kind indulgence which you have extended to me, and, before I sit down, to express a hope that although the Session may be a short one, it may not be a barren one, and that the result of our deliberations will tend to promote the happiness and prosperity of the people, and to maintain the dignity and authority of both Houses of Parliament. I beg to move the following humble Address to Her Majesty:—
MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
"WE, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Tour Majesty for the gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
"We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty continues to maintain relations of amity with all foreign Powers.
"We learn with satisfaction that although the information received from the Soudan includes painful uncertainties, yet the energy, courage, and resource conspicuously displayed by General Gordon in the successful defence of Khartoum deserve Your Majesty's warm recognition.
"We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that the advance of Your Majesty's troops to Dongola has for its object the rescue and security of that gallant officer, and of those who have so faithfully co-operated with him.
"We thank Your Majesty for informing us that in Egypt itself Your Majesty is using Your best endeavours to promote further improvement, and that Your Majesty has given Your
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support to the Egyptian Government in the difficult financial position in which it has been left through the failure of the recent Conference.
"We learn with regret that circumstances have occurred on the south-western frontier of the Transvaal which demand Your Majesty's vigilant attention; and we humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that, in conjunction with the Government of the Cape Colony, Your Majesty is engaged in considering the means which may be required to secure the faithful observance of the Convention of the present year.
"We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that the Bill for the extension of the Parliamentary Franchise will at once be introduced.
"We humbly assure Your Majesty that our careful consideration shall be given to any measure which may be submitted to us; and we earnestly trust that the blessing of Almighty God may attend upon our labours."
LORD LAWRENCE (who wore a Court dress), in rising to second the Motion, said: My Lords, the arguments with regard to the franchise are so well understood by those of you who have read and listened to the speeches of able men of both sides and both Parties that we must come to the conclusion that little can be said one way or the other that has not already been said. I think, however, it is rather a mistake that the question should have so absorbed the mind of the country, and that other matters of great and critical importance should have been overlooked. Attention has recently been directed to such questions as the state of the Navy, our harbour defences, and our coaling stations; and it really seems to me as if it is almost necessary that public opinion should force large expenditure on the Government. This ought to strengthen the hands of the Executive, for even the strongest Government is unable to do this unless supported by that force of public opinion. At the same time, I believe that the country has every confidence in the Government. I shall abstain from calling attention to the issues now before Parliament and the country. We are thoroughly aware of the strain between the two Houses, and, in my own humble opinion, that strain can only be relaxed by mutual concessions from both sides. We are accustomed to hear about reforms of your Lordships' House; but, I will ask, are

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no reforms necessary in "another place?" We have it on the authority of the Prime Minister himself, for he has said that the most important question, after the subject of the franchise has been disposed of, is the reform of the internal administration of the House of Commons itself. He stated that, whatever Government came into power, that would be one of the most important considerations which could be brought before it.
The Speech from the Throne comments upon the condition of Egypt, and, with respect to that subject, the country is looking anxiously to the progress of the Expedition to relieve General Gordon; and I hope that, as a result of that Expedition, some permanent Government will be established at Khartoum. The conduct of General Gordon, and his able lieutenant, Colonel Stewart, with regard to whose fate we are now in a state of uncertainty, deserves the high terms in which my noble Friend (Lord Belper) has spoken of it.
Your Lordships will be rejoiced to hear that Her Majesty's Government have resolved upon taking strong measures with regard to the Transvaal; that they are about to protest against the breach of the Convention so very lately concluded with that country; and that they will insist on the Boers carrying out their Treaty engagements, and keeping open the trade routes into the interior. There is a report that Colonel Sir Charles Warren, who has the highest experience with regard to matters at the Cape, has received instructions to proceed there. The only requisite for the success of his mission is that he should be strongly supported; and, since he has the confidence of the Government, no doubt he will be so supported, and, if necessary, force will be employed.
I further think your Lordships ought to congratulate the Government on the admirable appointment they have recently made of a Member of this House to the Viceroyalty of India. His career as a statesman and administrator is of world-wide repute, and all Parties are agreed on the judiciousness of the selection. The noble Earl (the Earl of Dufferin) will leave this country with the hearty good wishes of your Lordships' House and of the country. I will, in connection with the noble Earl, quote a sentence in a recent speech of
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the Earl of Dufferin, which is to this effect—
"That he wished for no higher encomium or recognition than that his administration had been uneventful, and that he had kept the Empire intrusted to his guardianship tranquil and secure"—
words that will alone stamp him as one who has the confidence of his country, and fit also for the highest position under his Sovereign. I will also say one word on the noble Marquess who is on the point of relinquishing that Viceroyalty (the Marquess of Ripon). It can truly be said of him that he has kept India tranquil and secure, prosperous and happy. It is entirely owing to his policy that we have a friendly Ruler on our North-Wrest Frontier; and I maintain that the Liberal policy in Afghanistan has absolutely succeeded. Whatever criticisms we may pass upon his administration, we must recognize the enormous difficulties which a Ruler of more than 250,000,000 had to contend with. The Office of Viceroy is no sinecure, and we are all too ready to criticize his administration of affairs. It should, therefore, always be borne in mind that our Governors General invariably did their duty to the best of their ability. In conclusion, I beg to second the Motion of my noble Friend. [See p. 11.]
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it is usual, or, at all events, very common, in following the Mover and Seconder of the Address, to compliment them on the speeches they have made. In this instance, in addition to the ordinary reasons which can justly be given for such a course, I have other grounds on which I can express my admiration with real sincerity. I heartily admire the fertility of resource and the breadth of treatment which enabled the noble Lord who moved the Address to elaborate a speech of three-quarters of an hour out of so short and insignificant a text.
EARL GRANVILLE: Half-an-hour.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Half-an-hour, then. But this does not detract from the credit due to the noble Lord. It was a very interesting speech. I do not think the topics could have been treated in a more interesting manner, nor could much more have been made from a Queen's Speech which is remarkable principally for its omissions. It is very creditable to the noble Lord.

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As to the noble Lord the Seconder, the quality of his speech which I should most like to compliment was its candour. As I listened to him I rather felt some doubt whether he had been subjected to that educational process usual on such occasions under my noble Friend at the Table (Lord Cork), and whether he had not fallen accidentally into the hands of my noble Friend not now in the House (Lord Lathom). He noticed, I thought, with great justice that the Speech did not contain many things which the public would like to hear of; that it was a great mistake to suppose that the franchise was the all-engrossing subject which the Government seemed to believe it; that there were other objects which required to be reformed besides that House of Lords for which Mr. Chamberlain reserves his projects of reform; that the Government might have told us something of that question which deeply occupies the minds of all political thinkers at the present moment—namely, the state of our defensive Services, and the remedies for their defects which the Government propose. He told us—and I was very glad, to hear it—contrary to the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, that he thought it necessary that Khartoum should be retained; and he went on to point out that India also had not received that notice in the Speech put forward by Her Majesty's Government which its importance and the special relations in which we stand to it naturally deserve. But of all these sentiments, which, as I say, rather puzzled me as to the origin of his speech, the one with which I sympathized most was the one in which, after announcing to us that a distinguished servant of the Crown was about to proceed to South Africa, in order to remedy the disorders that have arisen there, he expressed, in meaning language, the hope that he would not be left to do it alone, and that he would be supported in his arduous task by something else besides words. I think the noble Lord expressed himself with as much candour as could be expected. Of course, what he meant was that he hoped his fate would not be that of General Gordon. My Lords, as I have said, the Speech of Her Majesty is remarkable chiefly for its omissions. With the exception of the single matter of the franchise, there is
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no allusion whatever to domestic legislation. The requirement of domestic legislation is not entirely absent, and I believe that there is no precedent for entering upon important domestic legislation without, in the Speech from the Throne, giving the Houses of Parliament some indication of the course which the Government intend to take. An explanation of this omission might be made by the suggestion that the Government are initiating a Session which they intend shall last only four weeks, and which they are certainly determined shall close its course of life at the expiration of that time. But it is not possible to accept that explanation. In the first place, this is not a Session that has to deal merely with the franchise. It is a Session which must have taken place if the Franchise Question had never arisen. It is a Session which has been rendered absolutely necessary by the expenditure which Her Majesty's Government have incurred with regard to their military proceedings in Egypt; and, therefore, it is utterly without precedent that, summoning Parliament for that purpose, they should treat the Session as one of only a month or five weeks, and should put two Appropriation Bills into a single year, which has never been done before, or, on the other hand, that they should withhold all knowledge of their intentions with regard to domestic legislation. And I am the less able to assume that it is because they intend to cut the Session short, because the noble Lord, in that clear exordium with which he commenced his remarks, told us that he understood the opening words of the Speech to pledge the Government to introduce the subject of redistribution, and they must be extremely sanguine if they think that that can be done in five weeks. It is possible that the Government have reflected in their minds that there are certain grave questions of legislation with regard to Ireland, which, in due time, must be faced, but with regard to which it is much more convenient at this period of the Session to refrain from saying whether they intend to act, or not to act; and to that reticence may possibly be ascribed the curious character of the Queen's Speech. Then we come to foreign affairs. The language of the Speech has that notorious felicity of grammar which seems always to attach

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to inspired productions of the Royal pen. I say inspired, and I lay stress upon it, because I do not know why it is that a Government consisting of an unusual number of eloquent and highly literary men should have such a singular faculty for producing unliterary Speeches. The Speech says—"The information received from the Soudan includes painful uncertainties." That seems to me to be very much like the observation of the Irish gentleman, who said that his available assets included a great number of debts. But it proceeds—
"The energy, courage, and resource, conspicuously displayed by General Gordon in the successful defence of Khartoum, deserve my warm recognition."
How does the Government know what General Gordon has been doing? We have no intelligence. It is not even known whether he has confined himself to the defence of Khartoum, and, if he has done so, whether he has been successful. On the contrary, gloomy rumours have come across to the bazaars, which we all hope are untrue; and it is a very strange statement for the Government to make that they warmly recognize the energy, courage, and resource which are said to have been conspicuous in General Gordon, but which have been hidden by a thick veil of ignorance from the knowledge of all the world. I should like to know in what particular position the Mission of General Gordon stands? There is a good deal of variation of language in the tone in which the Government speak of that Mission. At the beginning of this year the Government, in a Speech from the Throne, explained to us what that Mission was, and they did so in these terms—
"I have also despatched Major General Gordon"—
not to defend, but—
"to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the interior of the Soudan, and have permitted him to act in the execution of that measure."
Now, the only Report which General Gordon has sent home is that the policy of the Government has covered it with indelible disgrace, and having sent that he has discharged his duty, as far as reporting is concerned. Now, he is permitted to act in the execution of the
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measure of withdrawal—which seems the last thing that General Gordon appears to be inclined to do. He has not withdrawn. On the contrary, he has gone into the Soudan. He has placed himself in its foremost and most important fortified place, and, according to the account of the Government, he has defended that post with great zeal and courage; but, in doing so, he has absolutely cut from beneath them the ground of the policy which he was originally sent to carry out. Everything he has done has been in distinct contravention of the policy which he was sent to carry out. We admire immensely the manner in which he has done it, and we have very little doubt that his policy is much better than that of the Government; but his policy is not that of the Government, and, therefore, I read, with some surprise, this warm eulogium of his conduct, unaccompanied by any indication that his attitude has entirely changed, and that he has, apparently, forced the Government to entirely change their policy at the same time. I hope that upon this point the noble Earl opposite will imitate the candour of the noble Lord who seconded the Address, and will tell us what the policy of Her Majesty's Government is, and whether he will recognize the necessity of keeping Khartoum, and whether, when it has been either successfully defended by General Gordon, or has been relieved, the Government will retain it as a portion of the Egyptian Empire. At all events, if he does not do so, it seems to me that he must revise another part of the policy of Her Majesty's Government. I cannot understand how the proposal to cut off all that is south of Wady Halfa from the territory of Egypt is compatible with the resolution to abandon Egypt to its fate. In the opinion of those who are best qualified to judge of the strategic necessities of those countries—certainly in the opinion of the foremost statesmen and soldiers in Egypt—this territory south of Wady Halfa is of vital importance to the defence of Egypt. If you are going to stay in Egypt to support the Khedive, and to make yourselves permanently responsible for the safety of the country, I do not say that to force her to give up the portion of the Soudan south of Wady Halfa is a wise policy, but at all events it is an intelligible policy; but if you are

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going first, by exercising an unexampled pressure, to force the Khedive to abandon that which Egyptian statesmen and soldiers believe to be of vital importance to the safety of the country, and then, having cut off that means of defence, to leave Egypt to shift for herself, all I can say is, that the adoption of such a course would exceed in baseness anything that is recorded of a protecting Power. I trust, however, that the noble Earl opposite will be able to tell us that Khartoum is not to be parted with, or, at least, that Egypt is not to be abandoned to its fate. Then there is another statement with respect to Egypt that has still more of the character of obscurity which attaches generally to Queen's Speeches. It is this—
"In Egypt itself I am using my test endeavours to promote further improvement."
That seems to imply that some improvement has already taken place; but from all accounts received it would appear that not only has no improvement taken place in the affairs of the country, but the retrogression has been steady and conspicuous. The tax-paying powers of the people are lowered, the authority of the Khedive is weakened, and the name of England stands lower in Egypt than ever it did before. Not only has her power diminished, but even the veracity of her statesmen is impugned; and how is it possible, starting from this point, to say—"I am using my best endeavours to promote further improvement?" And then the Speech goes on to say—
"And I have given my support to the Egyptian Government in the difficult financial position in which it has been left through the failure of the recent Conference."
Well, I earnestly hope that if ever Her Majesty's Government has occasion to give me its support in case I am involved in financial difficulties it will be by some more effective means than that which they have given to the Government of Egypt. The only support they have given them is the advice not to pay their debts. That is the beginning and the end of it. That, of course, is very comforting to the creditors; but whether it can be described as supporting a man in pecuniary or financial embarrassments I very much doubt. The Egyptian Government may fairly say—" Call you this backing? A plague on such backing, say I." But, perhaps,
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we have not heard the whole policy of the Government, and the noble Earl may be able to announce that a large financial subsidy is to be part of the financial means of support which they intend to offer to the Egyptian Government. The concluding statement of this attenuated Speech is in these terms—
"I have to regret that circumstances have occurred on the south-western frontier of the Transvaal which demand my vigilant attention."
I cannot join in that sentiment at all. That the vigilant attention of Her Majesty's Government should have been drawn to anything at all appears to me to be a matter for congratulation. If they had said, "the matter demands my strong intervention," I could have understood it; but this expression of regret because their vigilant attention has been excited gives one an ill opinion of the ordinary mental attitude prevalent in the Government Departments. The ordinary attitude of the Colonial Office is a nirvana, a kind of absorption in itself, a contemplation of its own perfections, a sleep from which it is only aroused by circumstances of an extraordinary character, and from which it emerges with great reluctance and regret. I should hope that, following the noble Lord who seconded the Address in this as in other matters, the noble Earl will say that something more than a vigilant attention will be given to the affairs of the Cape—something of a more solid character. The noble Lord who moved this Address went considerably into the question of the franchise dispute. I hope I may be permitted to say that I am too weary of that question to follow him into the argument. It has not been his pleasure or his pain to discuss that subject as often as I have done; and I hope I may be permitted to refrain from following him until a more legitimate opportunity arises. But, in the course of these voluminous discussions, two things have been said to which I think it desirable to call your Lordships' attention. One of these concerns the mode in which a Minister of the Crown assists in keeping the Queen's peace, which is the first part of his duty; and the other concerns the mode and action of your Lordships' House. I know there is a certain inconvenience here in calling attention to what is said by Mr.

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Chamberlain. No doubt, that will also be done "elsewhere;" but his utterances are so exceptional, and so absolutely unprecedented in official history, that I do not think it would be fitting that we should meet here on the first night of the Session to carry our Address to the foot of the Throne without some notice being taken of language which has already, I fear, produced evil results, and may produce still worse results. I know that Her Majesty's Government have a strange theory as to conjoint official responsibility. Their view is that Members of the Government may say and do very much as they like, and that if only they can be brought with difficulty to agree on the precise points at issue before Parliament at the time it is as much harmony as can be expected from them. Even for them, with this lax view of official duty, I am surprised that no remonstrance against the conduct of their Colleague has been heard. At Hanley, on the 7th of October, Mr. Chamberlain said—
"I think that those gentlemen"—
referring to your Lordships—
"presume on your love of order and hatred of violence. These are, no doubt, characteristics of the English people; but unless this generation has lost other qualities, which have made the name of Englishmen respected and honoured throughout the world, they will show courage and resolution."
That is, they presume on your love of order and hatred of violence; but these characteristics are, unless Englishmen have lost their character, to be set aside by a display of "courage and resolution." Is it possible more clearly to indicate that the love of order and hatred of violence are to be abandoned? I trust we shall have some disclaimer from the noble Earl of language which is not only dangerous and injurious to the public peace, but is as discreditable to the Minister who uttered it as to the Ministers who remain his Colleagues. I will now call attention to a less serious matter, and here the observations are not of a dangerous kind. But they say that the highest happiness is to see ourselves as others see us. Well, it must be next door to that happiness to see ourselves as some portions of ourselves see us; and it is interesting to see in what light the proceedings of this House are viewed by some Members of it. A noble Lord opposite (Lord Durham),
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speaking at Chester-le-Street on the 4th of October, addressing his audience, proceeded to give a fancy sketch of the Conservative Peers. The noble Lord said it was 50 or 60 Peers who formed the majority on the Franchise Bill—
"He wished his audience could have seen some of them. There were old men in skull caps—the lame, the deaf, and the blind. Heaven knew where some of them came from, and he did not know where they would go to. Possibly they might be sent to the British Museum. These devoted gentlemen were the subservient tools and voiceless followers of Lord Salisbury,"
Now, this remarkable utterance is, perhaps, more worthy of attention than it otherwise would be, because this noble Lord, I believe, is the only Peer that Mr. Chamberlain has ever eulogized; at all events, he is the Peer that Mr. Chamberlain has held up as a model, and, considering the influence Mr. Chamberlain has on the destinies of the country, we do not know what may happen. Your Lordships have, no doubt, all been delighted by the caricature, showing what this House would be like if it consisted of a multiplication of Home Secretaries; but this extract is interesting as showing what the character of our debates would be, and what the species of language would be that would be employed if, instead of Sir William Harcourt, Mr. Chamberlain had the filling of this House. There would be no skull caps upon the skulls; but what there would be inside the skulls it is too painful to speculate. However, I do not admit that skull caps are peculiar to the Conservative Party. I do not see any. My impression is that a skull cap is peculiar to a noble Lord (Lord Houghton), whom I might at one time have described as the "only poet" in the House. I am not aware that that disgraceful appanage has been seen on any other head. As to the lame, the deaf, and the blind, as far as the Conservative Party is concerned, I deny that there are any lame, deaf, or blind, and I ask the assistance of the noble Lord in pointing them out, if there are any to be found. But my impression is that we can show as good members, ears, and eyes, as the other side. This, however, is merely an exaggerated specimen of the kind of argument rather common on the other side, which I regret. It is an argument of which the purport is that the majority in this

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House is formed by men of whom a very large proportion are not in ordinary attendance on the debates in this House. I believe that absentee doctrine is wholly unsupported by statistics. I believe, if you allow for the fact that a certain number of Members of this House must be absent through age, you will find the attendance is, on the average, as good as in the House of Commons. But the point on which I wish to remark is that it is not always the critics who are the most virtuous in the matters which they censure. There are some people who, like the sign-post, point to the way they do not themselves go. I asked a friend to examine from the records how often in the year 1883 the Earl of Durham had attended our deliberations, and I find that he did not attend more than five times. That is not a matter of much importance; but I suspect it will be found that if there are such absentees they are equally divided on both sides of the House, and that the Members of this House make as good attendances as Members of the House of Commons. My Lords, the Speech introduces the question of the franchise in the following words:—
"You may be enabled at once to give your further consideration to the great subject of the representation of the people."
Last Session the Franchise Bill was introduced simply as "an enlargement of the Occupation Franchise." I hope there is meaning and significance in the difference of these two expressions. I am not going to express my opinion upon the dispute which prevails. My opinion will be found expressed very accurately in the Resolution adopted by your Lordships in July last. I have nothing to alter in the opinion there expressed. But this statement in the Speech from the Throne leads me to the belief that we have made converts; that Her Majesty's Government, seeing that the representation of the people is really a great subject, that it cannot be dealt with in any imperfect and half-hearted or mutilated fashion, do understand the importance of introducing both a Franchise Bill and a Redistribution Bill, and that they intend to press them forward without any artificial obstacles or interruptions—with all the rapidity that may be—and doing all that in them lies to place them both at the same time on the Statute Book of the Realm. I am quite
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sure that in any fair and honest efforts made by them they will have the earnest and hearty co-operation of Members of this House.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, notwithstanding the warning of the noble Marquess, I shall endeavour to follow the example of Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech, and be brief in the observations which I have to make. I have listened with considerable amusement to one of the most lively and facetious speeches I have heard for a long time in this House. We have heard of a statesman of a great country talking of the light heart with which he was about to enter into war which proved disastrous to his own country. Absit omen! I must say that the occasion of the meeting of Parliament at this time is not to be met by the Leader of the Conservative Party in that tone of levity which marked his words from the beginning to the end of his speech. My Lords, it has been my happy fate of late years—and I think I can assert that I never paid a compliment that was not sincere—to have been able to compliment the Mover and Seconder of the Address. I entirely join in the remark which the noble Marquess made with respect to the speech which the Mover of the Address gave us. I think it was a remarkable speech. The circumstances of our meeting are remarkable, and the Mover has risen to the importance of the occasion. I listened with great attention and interest to the speech of the noble Lord behind me (Lord Lawrence)—I believe it was his maiden speech—and I must say there was singular grace—and he spoke with a certain authority—when he alluded to the high character of Lord Dufferin and Lord Ripon, considering the honoured name which he bears. But I think it is a pity that the noble Marquess mixed up with the compliments to the Mover and Seconder some misrepresentation of what they said. The noble Marquess said that the Mover had announced the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Redistribution Bill as well as a Franchise Bill. My noble Friend informs me he did not say that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to do so. But I am not at all sure that he would not have been perfectly justified in saying that. It is only to repeat what we have

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been saying from the beginning—that we want to deal with the whole question, and in the manner in which we think it is most likely to be carried to a successful end, and that both the Franchise Bill and the Redistribution Bill shall have our most vigilant and urgent attention, and, I would add, mixing it up with the vitality of our existence as a Government in the hope of arriving at a satisfactory result. In answer to the noble Seconder of the Address, the noble Marquess chose as his text that which the noble Seconder did not say at all. He said that my noble Friend insisted that it was our duty to retain Khartoum. My noble Friend said nothing of the kind. What he did say was that he hoped the result of this Expedition would be to leave a strong Government at Khartoum. That promises one thing, and the other another. The things are entirely different, and the noble Marquess did not act fairly to my noble Friend in transposing the observation made by him. The noble Marquess then took upon himself to assert that the Queen's Speech at the beginning of the Session, in only alluding to one measure, and not to others, was entirely without precedent. I think if the noble Marquess looks back he will find that exactly the same thing happened under a Conservative Government, no measure being mentioned except the business they had in hand. The noble Marquess then went on to speak of General Gordon. I do not think it is quite fair to argue with the noble Marquess, because the noble Marquess has not seen all General Gordon's telegrams. It will be the duty of Her Majesty's Government to present them to Parliament, and then your Lordships will find in these telegrams that General Gordon agrees with the policy of Her Majesty's Government. And I must say I was never more disappointed in my life than when the noble Marquess asked how on earth we knew what General Gordon had done? It is exactly in the same deprecating tone that the noble Marquess adopted about General Gordon as soon as he was appointed and was sent out. I maintain that what General Gordon has done is known to England and to Europe, and has excited the most enthusiastic admiration of that genius—which General Gordon is—and yet the noble Marquess says that he does not
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know anything that General Gordon has done. We have been told day by day that the General was starved; that we were neglecting him; and that he was in the greatest personal danger; but as soon as we get information we find that he is not in personal danger, and that he is victorious instead of being defeated, and that there is every reason why we should expect that the Expedition that has been sent out should be perfectly successful in its object. I must say that the noble Marquess is inconsistent to an extraordinary degree. He bases on our conduct with regard to General Gordon the assumption that we are not going to do anything in order to maintain the Convention agreed to with the Boers the other day, and this after we have actually sent an Expedition to the relief of General Gordon. I decline to argue that matter with the noble Marquess. I think the noble Marquess has got into a careless habit from addressing, during the autumn, enthusiastic audiences who cheered whatever he said. [Opposition cheers.] I can understand that cheer. No doubt, they would cheer whatever he said—whether it was correct or incorrect they were equally delighted and enthusiastic. The next question is with regard to the Transvaal. Among all the facetiœ of the noble Marquess, on what appears to me a most solemn occasion, he told us a story about an Irishman who included in his assets his debts. But I have heard of another Irish gentleman who, when he paid his debt to Nature, left to his sorrowing friends the melancholy duty of discharging his other obligations. I think this sentiment somewhat applies to the criticism of the noble Marquess with regard to South Africa. Did the late Government, or not, when they paid their debt to Nature, leave to their Successors the duty of discharging various liabilities of the severest character in South Africa? Then, what was the remainder of his speech? It was the continuation of that long autumnal duel which the noble Marquess carried on with Mr. Chamberlain during the Recess. It is not for me to defend Mr. Chamberlain, who is well able to do that for himself. It is not likely that I should share in his appreciation of the House of Lords, though I am bound to say, when the noble Marquess refers personally to me to know whether there

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are blind and lame and deaf to be found among your Lordships, I have to make the melancholy confession that I am somewhat deaf, and that I am sometimes lame; but I hope to keep my eyes a little longer. The noble Marquess insisted on our responsibility for everything that Mr. Chamberlain may have said. I remember that Lord Beaconsfield disclaimed any responsibility for what any Member of his Government might say on such occasions; and yet the noble Marquess demands that we should be responsible for every word a Member of the Government may say in any part of the country. May I ask, is the noble Marquess ready to endorse every epithet and every expression used by the Leaders of the Conservative Party?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am only responsible for myself.
EARL GRANVILLE: Well, then, I ask the noble Marquess whether, after cool reflection, he would take upon himself the responsibility of the many offensive epithets he has applied to Her Majesty's Government during the autumn? When you complain of violent language on the part of others, you must consider whether you have yourself contributed to that violence and strength of language, and whether you are not the person who gave powder and shot for those discharges which have been made. The noble Marquess has said hardly anything about the Franchise Bill—the object of this Session. The absence of all remark in his speech is so striking, that I think I had better not make some remarks, which otherwise, I believe, would not be without justification with regard to this great subject. If the noble Marquess prefers adjourning all discussion on the question until the Franchise Bill comes before the House I will submit to his decision. I think, when that Bill does come before the House, your Lordships will be prepared to discuss it in that spirit and manner which were so eloquently described by the noble Lord who moved the Address.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, before the discussion on Her Majesty's Speech closes, I should like to say two or three words upon that short paragraph which refers to South Africa. My noble Friend the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury)
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commented not unfairly upon the grammatical structure of the sentences in question. I wish rather to call the attention of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) somewhat to the substance of the case. My noble Friend will remember—and I should wish the House to remember as far as possible—that, in this question of South Africa, there are no less than three distinct subjects involved—there is the case of the Bechuanas, the case of the Zulus, and also the case of the Transvaal; and I will take the liberty of commenting very briefly indeed upon these three subjects. I wish I could say that there was anything of a redeeming character about any one of them; but everything respecting them appears at this moment to be as dark as can be; and I am at a loss to understand whore it will all lead to. I think it will require all the dexterity of my noble Friend, and every effort he can put forward, to extricate us from our present dangerous and difficult position. It has been said that my noble Friend succeeded to an inheritance of difficulty. But I am bound to say that, during the last year, the difficulties have in no respect diminished. It is impossible to conceive a more unsatisfactory condition than that which exists in South Africa at this moment. The power of England, which, only a few years ago, was unquestioned and unquestionable, has been shaken, if not materially lessened. There is antagonism to us on the part of the Natives; so far as the English population is concerned there is the deepest indignation and a tendency to alienation from this country; and with regard to the Dutch I wish to point out, what is known to all familiar with the case, that the movement in favour of Dutch nationality, so to say, has acquired a growth and an influence which are wholly novel. During the last few years, the Dutch language has become the official language of the Colony. I again repeat, as it is a matter of the greatest importance to this country, that the Dutch influence, nationality, and power have increased to a degree that may well complicate matters. I do not wish to enter into any subjects of debate at this moment; but I cannot avoid saying that all those difficulties which we witness now, and those with which we are threatened

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hereafter, are clearly traceable and owing to that unfortunate transaction at Majuba Hill, and to the Convention which followed and was founded upon it. There is no man who looks back upon past circumstances who does not feel that from that moment the whole of our difficulties, both with regard to the Dutch and with regard to the Transvaal, began. There is one other point of a difficult nature. The condition of the Natives seems to me to be as deplorable as anything possibly could be, and that lamentable condition has gradually increased during the past few months, both as regards the Zulus and the Bechuanas. As regards the Bechuanas, a few years ago you had a civilized, a contented, a Christian, and an improving population; and I can safely say that during the time I had the honour of holding the Seals of the Colonial Office there were no accounts which we received from any part of the world which were more full of satisfaction and of promise than those from the Bechuana territory. I constantly felt and said that, whatever might be the work which England was doing in other parts of the world, there, at least, was satisfactory progress and fair promise for the future. But these unfortunate people have been handed over to the Boers, and the contentment and prosperity which existed have been utterly blown to the winds. I may go further, and take the case of the Zulus. In former years the wise and benevolent efforts of Sir Theophilus Shepstone produced a great improvement in the Zulu country, and a state of content and prosperity, leading the Natives on step by step to a higher condition, and preparing them for something better, which, even under Cetewayo, was not removed. But during the past 12 months all that has been changed. Freebooters have gone into their territory, and those unfortunate people, whom we disarmed, whose power we overthrew, and for whom we were in honour pledged, have been handed over to the tender mercies of the Boers, without the slighest satisfactory promise for their security. With regard to the Transvaal itself, we have had, during the past few weeks, a pretty good illustration of the feeling which exists in the Transvaal towards this country. It is a feeling of absolute contempt for England. They have departed from, if not from every one, at least the
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last two or three Conventions into which they entered, and the violation of their engagements has been followed by violent and brutal outrages upon those tribes and Chiefs to whom, as I conceive, our honour is pledged, and upon those British officers who have been brought into more or less official relations with them. There is the brutal murder of Mr. Bethell. I do not know whether the Colonial Office has full details of that murder; but I hope that, when the Papers which are promised appear, such details as the Government may possess will be fully and frankly given in them. I have heard stories so bad, so varied, and outrageous, that I hesitate to give credence to them. If they are true, it should be made known; and if not, it is equally fair to the Transvaal authorities that that fact should be stated. I hope all the Papers promised to us will contain full details, because I fail, at present, to understand how the case stands. A little time ago, it was announced, apparently on authority, that the Cape Government were acting with us in this matter; but since then we have been told that Sir Charles Warren has received orders to proceed to South Africa. But against that statement we are again told, in the language of the Speech from the Throne, that the Government is acting in conjunction with the Cape Government in this matter. Now, what I wish to know is, what the Cape Government has undertaken to do, and what we have undertaken to do; how far the Cape Government have undertaken to support us by forcible means, if necessary; and how far they are merely carrying on the position of negotiators at this moment? I also wish to understand, and I hope the Papers will show it, what Sir Hercules Robinson has said, done, and advised on this subject. It is notorious that he has laid the greatest stress upon the organization of a police force on the borders. In his opinion, the one essential condition of the success of the last Convention with the Transvaal rested upon this—that there should be an adequate police force on the borders. I do not believe that that police force has ever come into existence; but, if it has, it has in such small numbers as to be of no use whatever, being utterly inadequate for the duties it has to perform. I hope my noble Friend will tell us what has been

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the cause and reason of the delay in this matter. I rejoiced, with a great many persons in England, when I heard that Mr. Mackenzie was appointed Commissioner upon this frontier. I knew his past character, his clearness of mind, his perfect familiarity with the whole subject, and his disinterested devotion to the Native Races among whom he has worked so long; and I feel that his appointment was a strong earnest of, and security for, the carrying out of that policy for which we have had so many assurances. Well, Mr. Mackenzie proceeded to his station. He discharged his duties for a while; but before long he met with remonstrances and opposition, and, at last, such active antagonism on the part of the Boers, that he was compelled to retire. I hope it will be made perfectly clear what are the circumstances under which he retired. I notice, in a speech delivered by the Prime Minister of the Cape, that the blame for his retirement was thrown on the Government. I hope the noble Earl will be able to contradict that statement. Then there is another point upon which I will say one word. It is not mentioned in the Speech from the Throne, though it is connected with South Africa. My noble Friend behind me (Viscount Sidmouth) last Session repeatedly called the attention of your Lordships to the case of Angra Pequena, and I supported him, urging repeatedly upon Her Majesty's Government the extreme importance of acting speedily and without delay, and warned them that, if delay did occur, very unsatisfactory conclusions would result. My prophecy has come true; and, while the Foreign Office was negotiating, it appears that Germany stepped in and occupied the ground which was the matter of dispute. I am not here to make any charge against the German Government. We have no Papers as yet before us on the subject; and I may go further, and say the more I know of German colonization, I am not at all jealous of it, but am rather favourable to it. But what I do complain of is, that this matter should have been allowed to drag on in such a way that this issue should be forced upon us, and that, without our knowledge or power of protest, we should have been forced into a seeming collision with the German Government, and that, as we know, a Conference should have
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been invited to assemble at Berlin to discuss South African affairs. I hope it will be made perfectly clear to us on what terms we are going to enter that Conference, and how far English interests may be prejudiced in the transaction. There is one other question which, I think, might have found a place in the Speech from the Throne. Her Majesty's Government began their career with every protest against the annexation of territory; but I think that during the four or five years that they have been in Office they have annexed more territory than any two other Governments which have preceded them. My noble Friend, to whom I know annexations of territory are peculiarly distasteful, has now taken a step in this direction, and within the past few weeks has announced, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, the annexation of the whole of the Southern Coast of New Guinea. I am not prepared to say that that is in any degree a faulty decision on the part of the Government; on the contrary, I should be much disposed to approve of it, and I have recommended it on former occasions; but I do hope that we shall have some Papers laid on the Table with regard to this matter, which, to my mind, is of sufficient importance to have deserved mention in the Speech from the Throne, both as regards the amount of territory added to the British Empire, and the important Australian interests which are involved. As far as my memory serves me, the original desire of our annexation or Protectorate of New Guinea arose out of the position of the Natives requiring protection, not on the Southern Coast of New Guinea, but on the North-Eastern Coast. Now, it does seem rather strange that when you are annexing a large territory, that you should annex that which was never asked for, and omit altogether that which was the origin of the question of annexation. I do not desire to go into any further questions, as, no doubt, during the Session, other opportunities of discussing them will occur; but I desire to ask my noble Friend for some explanations on the points I have raised, and I hope that Papers will be produced without delay dealing as fully as possible with the points to which I have called attention.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: Before the (noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby)

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rises to reply, I wish to put a question to him. As I understand the last despatch which has been written by the noble Earl with reference to Zululand, the steps to be taken for the defence of the Reserve are not to extend to measures outside the Reserve. I observe that the noble Earl takes no notice of the fact mentioned by Sir Henry Bulwer, that the Reserve Territory had been three or four times invaded by Zulus, who were supported by Boers in possession of the adjacent territory. I want to know whether the noble Earl is going to produce Papers telling us the present position of the Boers in Zululand, and what action is to be taken to prevent any such inroads upon the Reserve? I wish to ask whether the noble Earl takes upon himself to instruct officers in charge of the Reserve that, when they are attacked, they are not to be allowed to follow those who attack them into adjoining territory? It seems to me to be a most extraordinary position that we should allow our territory to be invaded three or four times, and that we should not take any steps to prevent these inroads by going outside them, when that would be the most likely course to put an end to them. Surely, it is most inexcusable that our officers should be told that they are not to go beyond the boundaries of the Reserve. There is, at all events, a doubt about it; and if the noble Earl gives permission to the strategical authorities to take steps to prevent these invasions, I have nothing more to say.
THE EARL OF DERBY: One complaint which has been made in the course of this debate is as to the number of omissions from the Queen's Speech. I think my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon), in the questions he has put, has contrived very ingeniously to supply those omissions. He has travelled over a wide range of topics, and if I were to attempt to follow into the wide range of subjects he has invited me to discuss, I should have to address your Lordships at greater length than would be desirable or convenient at present. I do not think anyone can complain of my noble Friend for thinking that the question of South Africa is one which should be brought before the House without delay, although it is not so exciting a topic as some of those with which we
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shall have to deal. It is not one that has been much dealt with by speakers in the Recess. Still, it is one of great importance, and I am not going to make the pretence of believing that the state of things in that part of the world is satisfactory. It has not been satisfactory at any time I can remember since I have entered upon public life; but I do not admit the soundness of the view taken by the noble Earl when he represents it as growing worse instead of better. He quite correctly divides the question into three different heads — our relations with the Transvaal, our relations to Zululand, and our relations with the Bechuanas; but he did not mention what a year ago might have been counted as a fourth—namely, our relations with Basutoland; and as in that part of the country the state of things was one of great danger, and it is now one of peace and tranquility, I can quite understand that it would not suit the noble Earl to bring it forward. He asks where we are drifting to; he thinks our difficulties have not diminished, but increased; that the power of England in South Africa is diminishing; and that the antagonism between the Dutch and the English is greater than it has ever been before. That is a general assertion which it is very difficult either to prove or to disprove. He has given his view, and I will give mine. In answer to his first question, where are we drifting to, I say nowhere; we know perfectly well where we are going. With regard to his second question, the difficulties have not increased, but diminished. I do not know what he means by saying that the power of England is destroyed or broken.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I did not say that. I said it was lessened or weakened.
THE EARL OF DERBY: Well, that is a matter of opinion; and I will point out that whereas, some years ago, the Colonists in Natal were in constant fear of what might happen to them in the way of attack or incursion from the Zulus on their frontier, their apprehensions on that score have ceased. There is now no part of Natal or Cape Colony which is disaffected to the Imperial Government, or in danger of any attack. The noble Earl speaks of the antagonism of the Dutch and English races. Well, that is an old story. No

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one knows better than he does that there has been a certain amount of antagonism probably ever since the English occupied any part of the Continent; but I do not think there is any reason to suppose that it has been increased or embittered by recent events. It is quite true that at the Cape there is what is called a Dutch Party, and that it is now in power; but it has gained its power in a Constitutional way at the elections; it is using that power, as far as I can see, in a fair and moderate manner, and there can be no interference on our part, unless we are to say that the Cape Colony is not to be free to govern itself in a Parliamentary manner. With regard to our relations with the Zulus, I do not think my noble Friend has fairly represented the state of affairs in the country, when he speaks as if the present Government are responsible for what has happened. No doubt, there was a time when the Zulu nation, under Cetewayo, was more prosperous and powerful than at present; but who was responsible for putting an end to that state of things? Not the present Government, nor anyone on this side of the House. It was done in 1879; but I am bound to say I do not think it was the work of the Colonial Office, then administered by Sir Michael Hicks-Beach. Sir Bartle Frere took a very decided view of the dangers which were supposed to arise from the power of Cetewayo, and he undertook to break it. A war ensued; the Zulu Kingdom was broken up; and it has never been placed, nor could it be placed, on the same footing again. What followed, not by way of permanent settlement, but rather as a temporary and provisional arrangement, was the division of the country among 13 Chiefs. At the time, that arrangement was probably as good as could be made; but after a time it became clear it would not last; the Chiefs would have been fighting one another; it was broken up, and its breaking up was followed by the restoration of Cetewayo. I have heard that restoration criticized in various ways. It has been described as a sentimental concession to the wishes of some parties in this country. It was nothing of the kind. In a position of great difficulty, it was resorted to in the hope that peace and order might be restored to Zululand by placing over the country the one
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man who was supposed to have most authority there. I am not at all clear it would have failed if Cetewayo had not been got at and surrounded by certain persons, who put into his head absurd and exaggerated ideas about his grievances and his rights, so that almost from the first moment of his restoration he began to seek extension of territory, and the effect was that the arrangement under which he was restored never had a fair chance. Had it not been for that, he might, at least, have gained something of his former position. When he died, there appeared to be only two practical alternatives—either to take upon ourselves a Protectorate amounting to virtual annexation, or to leave the Zulus to settle their own affairs. We did the last, not thinking it desirable, except under the pressure of absolute necessity, to extend the range of our power. Annexation, no doubt, would have been the more popular course at Natal and the Cape; but it would have involved the provision of a large force sufficient to protect Natal from the danger of invasion. Unfortunately, it is true, as the noble Earl has said, that these savage tribes were divided among themselves; they began to fight, and that happened which has happened before in many parts of the world, the party that got the worst of it sought allies; they called in the Boers, who accepted the invitation, and occupied the territory, not as invaders, but as allies. I do not know that they are any worse neighbours than the Zulus would have had otherwise, or than they were to one another. There was, as I have said, no choice between the two alternatives—either of taking the country under our control, the responsibility of which would have been enormous, while the territory would have been useless to us for the purposes of trade or immigration or any other object, or of leaving it; and the Government have done the latter. With regard to the Transvaal, I will not go beyond the point of time at which I am responsible for the condition of affairs. We have so often discussed the question of its retrocession and our defeat at Majuba Hill that I do not think there is much use in going over it again. There may be differences of opinion as to whether the retrocession was satisfactory or not; but after the experience of late years, knowing what we now know of Boer

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feeling, you cannot indulge the idea that the Transvaal could have been kept as a part of the British Empire except by a constant display of force. The question, I remember, was asked two years ago, and it never has been answered, What is the advantage of creating for yourselves another Ireland in South Africa? There would have been constant rebellions, which could only have been kept down by military force, and difficulties would have been created for us, and a display of force required, just at the moment we required our resources in some other part of the world. The noble Earl has spoken of the Natives generally, and more especially in the Transvaal, and of their present condition as regards ill-usage, and I am not at all prepared to assert that it is all that we could wish it to be. At the same time, that ill-usage does not arise from anything we have said or done. My noble Friend made a speech upon the same subject some 18 months ago. It has been alleged that there has been ill-usage and oppression on the part of the Boers. It is, of course, utterly impossible to say that in a country as large as France, where there is only a small and scattered White population, there may not have been cases of ill-usage by the Whites. But the fact remains, and there is no doubt about it, that the Black population of the Transvaal is constantly on the increase, and that there is a continual Native immigration going on into that country, which does not look as if the condition of the people were one of suffering and oppression. My noble Friend referred to Bechuanaland. Now, I am not going to deny that the state of things which has arisen there is one of a very unsatisfactory character. I think that the reference to this subject in the Speech from the Throne shows that the Government are not guilty of neglect or indifference with respect to this question; and when they say the circumstances of the country require their attention, it is scarcely fair to assume that they mean to look on and do nothing. Attention in such a case can only mean attention with a view to action. My noble Friend has asked for an explanation as to what has passed in regard to Bechuanaland between ourselves and the Government of the Cape, and he has referred to statements in the newspapers to the effect
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that Her Majesty's Government were making military preparations. All I need say now is that Her Majesty's Government are fully determined to carry out the terms of the Convention—they must be enforced, and the steps which have been taken will show that Her Majesty's Government are proceeding upon that footing; but, no doubt, my noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) will wish—as we do—that the matter should be settled in a peaceful manner; and, as the Cape Government have expressed their wish to negotiate, Her Majesty's Government have telegraphed out that they are content that they should do so, and that the Cape Government are to carry on their negotiations; but, in so saying, Her Majesty's Government are not parting with their control over the ultimate result, and will remain the judges, in the last resort, of what should be done. My noble Friend asks whether the Government of the Cape will supply a military force? I do not think they will supply either men or money. I think they will be content to put that on our shoulders, leaving us to our own resources; but, undoubtedly, they will give us a moral support, which means a great deal in a case of this kind. I do not think that is an unnatural view for them to take, as they would say it is as much our matter as theirs. There is no doubt in my mind that they are anxious to put an end to this unpleasant complication. Then my noble Friend asks what is the object we look to—what is to be the ultimate result of these proceedings? I am quite ready to tell my noble Friend and your Lordships what I consider is the result likely to be obtained with regard to Bechuanaland, and which I do not think could have been obtained 18 months ago—namely, that the Cape Government will be induced to make that country a part of the Cape Colony. This course would save us from further expense and responsibility, and put these unfortunate people under a civilized Government. With regard to Mr. Mackenzie's appointment and subsequent resignation, I will refer my noble Friend to the papers which will be presented. I will only say now that I do not attach blame to Mr. Mackenzie in any part of these transactions. He was appointed on the strong recommendation of Sir Hercules Robinson; but after some

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observation of the working of Mr, Mackenzie's arrangements Sir Hercules Robinson, without casting any blame upon Mr. Mackenzie, thought it unlikely that his system would lead to a satisfactory settlement; and as the Cape Government looked upon his appointment with considerable jealousy, and as the co-operation of the Cape authorities was indispensable, Sir Hercules Robinson thought that Mr. Mackenzie's resignation was desirable, and Mr. Mackenzie, showing a creditable public spirit, at once acquiesced. When the details are seen in the Papers to be presented, your Lordships will see that no blame is attached to any party concerned. The noble Viscount (Viscount Cranbrook) has asked a question in reference to the Reserve Territory, and whether Her Majesty's Government will protect it; and the answer is that they will do so, and will regard any attack upon it as an attack against Natal itself; but as to following over the frontier those who attack it, I have not laid down any general rule upon the subject, and I do not think it necessary to do so. My noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) has also asked a question in reference to Angra Pequena. That is a large question, and cannot be discussed in an off-hand manner; and, notwithstanding the high authority of some noble Lords, who attach great value to it as a possession, I believe that it is one of the most barren spots on the face of the earth, and though for 50 or 60 years English settlers have had free access to it, there has been no attempt to make any settlement upon it. I do not know that the Germans have taken steps to colonize it; and, certainly, it is not a very promising field for that purpose.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOK, interposing, inquired whether any more Papers would be presented?
THE EARL OF DERBY: Papers relating to Zululand and Bechuanaland will be laid upon the Table. My noble Friend made reference, in a general way, to the subject of annexation. Well, it is quite true that some annexations have been forced upon us. There seems to be a scramble going on among European Governments for Colonies in different parts of the world, and Her Majesty's Government were bound to make our position secure in those localities in which this country is interested. If Her Ma-
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jesty's Government had not acquiesced in the demand on the part of the Australians for a Protectorate over the Southern Coast of New Guinea, our refusal would have been deeply resented by all the Australian Colonies; and, on the whole, we thought it better to run the risk of some jealousy on the part of Foreign Powers, than to quarrel with our Colonists in a matter in which they are so deeply interested, and on which they feel so strongly. We have, accordingly, secured that part of the Coast from which alone they would have reason to apprehend danger, if it were in the hands of a Foreign Power.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, that he desired to ask whether it was true, as stated in the newspapers, that General Scratchley had been appointed High Commissioner to New Guinea?
THE EARL OF DERBY: Yes.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he wished to know whether he had been appointed High Commissioner simply with reference to New Guinea; and, if so, whether there was any High Commissioner of the Pacific?
THE EARL OF DERBY: As a matter of fact, the papers have been a little premature, for the appointment has not yet been actually made; but I have no hesitation in saying that Major General Scratchley is selected for the post. As to the precise functions he will have to perform, I cannot undertake to define them accurately off-hand and in a few words; but the noble Earl will find them described in the Papers, when they are laid upon the Table of the House.
LORD BRABOURNEsaid, he felt bound to express the satisfaction which he experienced at the declaration of the Government of their intention to stand by the latest arrangement made with reference to the Transvaal. If they had evinced a similar firmness three years ago, and had maintained it in deeds as well as words, much of the subsequent disaster, bloodshed, and misery would have been avoided. If the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) supposed that the name and reputation of England had not been lowered by the policy which had been followed by Her Majesty's Government, he was the only man in the Kingdom with any knowledge of South Africa who entertained that opinion; for, of late years, the influence of Great

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Britain in South Africa had greatly diminished. He was frequently receiving letters from South Africa concerning the state of affairs there, and it appeared that the name of Great Britain was mentioned with expressions of contempt, and that Englishmen were no longer, as formerly, considered as the superior race. The noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had spoken of the freedom of Natal from her old dread of the Zulus; but he would do well to bear in mind that Natal had been threatened with absorption from the Boers, who considered that they had conquered Englishmen and could do as they liked for the future. They had rebelled against Great Britain as soon as she had overcome their enemies, Sikukuni and the Zulus, and it was from them that trouble was still to be apprehended. He rejoiced, however, to find that the Cape Government, which now was mainly composed of the Dutch element, were giving Her Majesty's Government a hearty support in the course they were taking in maintaining the Convention and protecting the Reserve. It was perhaps, moreover, a good thing that the Dutch element should now preponderate in the Cape Government, or that those who had for years past only held the balance between two contending British Parties should now themselves experience some of the responsibilities of government. The prosperity of the Capo Colony depended upon a good feeling being maintained between the Dutch and English elements of the population, and that good feeling would not be increased, but retarded, by any want of firmness on the part of Her Majesty's Government in relation to the latest Convention with the Boers, and by any failure to show beyond all doubt that we were not going to be bullied and shouldered out of South Africa.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, I rise simply for the purpose of occupying the attention of the House for a moment with reference to a document, which, at first sight, may seem to be, but which I do not think is, irrelevant to any subject before us. Like many other Members of this House, I have come up from a great distance, involving two days' travelling, and I have not had an opportunity of reading a very interesting letter until this evening. But I may observe that our marvellous and almost supernatural Prime Minister, if I may say so, has taken the time and
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trouble to address a letter to a Bishop, at a Diocesan Conference of the Church of England, on the subject of the Disestablishment of the Church of England. It was not until to-night, when I went into your Lordships' Library, that I had an opportunity of reading that remarkable address. I read it with immense delight. It pointed out that there was in the Church of England a great variety of opinion which might develop into serious and dangerous disagreements. It pointed out the absolute duty of all Parties in the Church to look upon each other with charity, and it especially pointed out the duty of endeavouring to measure the difference of opinion which really existed among themselves. Admirable advice! I read it with infinite pleasure. I could not help asking myself—"Has it no application to other subjects?" I confess that it appears to me that the State of England is in a more serious dilemma than the Church of England at the present moment; and I could not help thinking that if the Heads of the rival Parties would look at the differences which separated them, on the great question on which we are mainly met, in the spirit of that advice of the Prime Minister, in which the Church of England was told of its absolute duty to look at their internal differences, the deadlock into which we have been driven would not last a week. My Lords, let me simply ask the House to remember this—Both Parties profess, and I believe with truth, to admit the absolute necessity, if not the justice, of extending the household franchise to the county voters. That is one great truth or principle on which we are all agreed. The other principle also in which we profess to believe, and I hope with equal truth, is that the question of redistribution should also be dealt with in this present Parliament, and in the constituencies with their present voters, and distributed in their present form. I sit down by saying this—that if any being from another planet, or even from a distant country of the world, from Europe or Asia, were brought to this country and were told that the two Houses of Parliament were coming to a deadlock, and that the fundamental principles of our historic Constitution were called in question, because the only difference was one of procedure, he would be amazed, and he would say that the Leaders of

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the two Parties were demented. I say that the entire difference between the two Parties being one of procedure only, there ought to be no difficulty whatever in arriving at a satisfactory solution of the problem before us.
THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, that he rose for the purpose of asking Her Majesty's Government what was the specific object of the Expedition which had been sent out, nominally for the purpose of relieving General Gordon? It had been asserted, on the one hand, that it was to stop when it reached Dongola; and, on the other, that it was to go to Khartoum; and he would like to know whether the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Wolseley) had instructions not to go beyond Dongola, even though it might be considered necessary? As it was, they were completely in the dark as to the object of the Expedition. All they knew was that the Mission of General Gordon was to arrange for the evacuation of the Soudan, and to bring away the garrisons, and to provide for the safety of the Europeans and the Egyptians who were in that part of the Khedive's Dominions. Was the Expedition now in progress sent to enable General Gordon to carry out those objects, or solely to relieve General Gordon himself? He must also complain of the omission from the Queen's Speech of all reference to the unsatisfactory state of our Navy, with regard to which public anxiety had been greatly excited, as well as of all reference to the depression of trade and commerce. He begged to give Notice that on an early day he should call attention to the subject of the depression of trade and commerce, and should move that an inquiry be instituted into the causes and extent of that depression.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that one of the questions asked by the noble Earl (the Earl of Dunraven), that which related to the object of the Egyptian Expedition, was completely answered in the Queen's Speech, in the following words:—
"The advance of my troops to Dongola has for its object the rescue and security of that gallant officer, and of those who have so faithfully co-operated with him."
That meant that the object of the Expedition was not merely to rescue General Gordon, but to do what was the original purpose of his Mission—
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namely, to rescue the garrisons. In carrying out his Mission, General Gordon had been, on the whole, successful; but not to the extent of being able to bring away the garrisons from the Soudan by his own exertions merely. In reply to the noble Earl's question, whether the Expedition would advance beyond Dongola, everyone would be rejoiced if the object of the Expedition were accomplished without its going beyond that place; but, if it were not accomplished, it might have to proceed further. It was not to be supposed that a man of Lord Wolseley's eminence would be sent out without power to take all the measures he might find necessary for the attainment of the objects of the Expedition. With regard to the Notice which the noble Earl had given in reference to trade and commerce, he was not going to enter into a discussion of the question on that occasion. He believed his noble Friend entertained strong Protectionist ideas.
THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: No; I do not.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Well, his noble Friend called it Reciprocity, which was only Protection under another name. The Government were fully aware that for some considerable time the trade and commerce, and also the agriculture of this country, had been by no means in the state of prosperity of former times; but, on the other hand, to say that there was an extraordinary and special depression peculiar to this country would be an entire mistake. Whatever the causes, it was a singular fact that this depression existed, not only in this country, but all over the world. In France agricultural depression existed equally as in this country. At that moment the French Government were under great pressure from the peasant proprietors on account of the extreme depression; even in the United States the agriculturists were by no means in a state of exaltation at the prevailing prices. The same might be said of the sugar trade, and of almost every other trade abroad. It was also said that the tea trade had never been in such a bad state as it was at present. Without attempting to discuss abstract principles of political economy, he might suggest that one explanation of the cause of this general depression of trade and commerce was to be found in

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the fact that production had overrun consumption, because, owing to railways and telegraphs, there was an immense increase of power in bringing commodities to market. He did not think it was necessary for the Government to call special attention to the state of trade and commerce; and, as to agriculture, he was not aware that there was such an extraordinary depression as to require any reference in the Speech from the Throne.
Address agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

AUSTRALIA—CONFEDERATION OF THE COLONIES.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked, If Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce a Bill, in accordance with the decision of the Australian Colonies as to Confederation, in the present Session?
THE EARL OF DERBY, in reply, said, he was glad this subject had been mentioned. It was, no doubt, one of extreme interest to the Australian Colonies. He was, however, unable, at the present moment, to answer the Question of the noble Earl, because they had not yet received the reply of the Government of New South Wales; but they had reason to believe that they would receive it in about a week or 10 days. If the answer was a favourable one, he should have no objection to introduce a Bill in that House, and, no doubt, there would be time to discuss it; but whether it would be possible to discuss it in "another place" he could not undertake to say.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
The Earl of REDESDALE appointed, nemine dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES — Appointed.
SUB-COMMITTEE FOR THE JOURNALS—Appointed.
APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Monday the 3rd of November next, a quarter past Four o'clock.