Lords Sitting of 24 November 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Scottish and Irish. Peerages* (10); Income Tax*(11).
Second Reading—Referred to Select Committee—Infants.

THE NEW PUBLIC OFFICES—THE WAR OFFICE AND ADMIRALTY—MESSRS. LEEMING'S DESIGNS.—QUESTION.
In reply to The Earl of WEMYSS,
LORD SUDELEYsaid: I have to state that, since the close of the last Session, Messrs. Leeming, the architects of the new Public Offices, have been occupied in carrying out on their plans the alterations and amendments suggested by the First Commissioner of Works. These have now been completed and approved of. The models are now being proceeded with, and will be ready for inspection early next year. It is proposed to have two models, one on the same scale as the drawings, showing the whole plan; and the other on a much larger scale of a small section of the building, to show all the details of the architectural workings.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsuggested that the models should be on such a scale as would show how far the new buildings would harmonize with the general character of the surroundings and neighbouring buildings.
LORD SUDELEY: My noble Friend is aware that there already exists a large model on a small scale, showing the whole area covered by Public Buildings about Whitehall and Parliament Street, which was made in 1878. The First Commissioner is at present considering how that model may be altered to show the new Offices in their position relatively to the Horse Guards and other Offices.

HOUSE OF LORDS—PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.

  POSTPONEMENT OF RESOLUTIONS.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELLrose to move the following Resolutions:—

  "1. That in the event of two or more Lords rising to address the House at the same time,

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  the Lord Chancellor or Chairman of Committees, whichever then presides, shall call on one of them to speak, and the Lord so called upon shall speak, unless the House do order otherwise:

  "2. That Private Bill Committees shall consist of three, and that all applications to Lords to serve upon them shall Be in writing, and delivered at their residences:

  "3. That the House be lighted always at the commencement of Public Business and continue lighted until the adjournment, unless the Lord Chancellor or Chairman of Committees gives a different instruction:

  "4. That no Lord who has a Motion or Bill upon the Paper shall rise to bring it forward out of its precedence:

  "5. That where the House permits reply to any Lord upon his Motion or his Bill, the debate shall on no pretence be continued after the reply is over:

  "6. That a false roof be introduced, similar to that in the other House of Parliament, to correct the present difficulty as to hearing."

  THE LORD CHANCELLORasked the noble Lord to consider whether it would be convenient for their Lordships to discuss the Resolutions in the unavoidable absence of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale). The Resolutions contained a great deal of debatable matter, with which, in some respects, the noble Earl was particularly conversant, and in regard to which he knew be desired an opportunity of expressing his opinion.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELLsaid, he was willing to accede to the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord. He had communicated with the noble Earl the chairman of Committees, and had no reason to suppose that he would be absent. He would postpone the Resolutions to a time when the House might hear the Chairman of Committees with regard to them.

INFANTS BILL.
(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
INFANTS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD FITZGERALD,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, reminded their Lordships that it had been brought before them on the 4th of August last, when he had fully explained its provisions, but, in deference to the views of the noble and learned Earl opposite (Earl Cairns) and of his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Bramwell), it had not been proceeded with. He explained that the object of
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  the Bill was to amend the law relating to the custody and guardianship of infants, and to amend it in points which were a discredit to the present state of their law. Its main object was to constitute the wife, if she survived her husband, guardian of her children. It too frequently happened that the husband was not a person who ought to be intrusted with the custody and guardianship of children. It also frequently happened to the wife that the knowledge of her husband being wholly unfitted for the guardianship of her children, had caused her last hours to be embittered by that reflection. This Bill, therefore, sought to provide a remedy, and to enable the wife, on an application, to obtain the sanction of the Court to the appointment of a guardian to her children to act after her decease in conjunction with the husband. The mother of any infant might apply to the Court for the appointment of some fit person or persons to act as guardian or guardians of such infant after her death jointly with the father of such infant; and the Court, if satisfied that, having regard to the character or habits of the father, or other grave cause, such appointment was necessary in the interests of the infant, might appoint a guardian If the guardian or guardians were unable to agree on a question affecting the welfare of the infant any of them might apply to the Court for its directions. The Court might, upon the application of the mother of any infant, make such order as it might think fit regarding the custody of the infant, having regard to the welfare of the infant and to the conduct of the parents and to the wishes as well of the mother as of the father, and might alter, vary, or discharge such order on the application of either parent, or, after the death of either parent, of any guardian. The Bill now before the House was in terms the same as it had come from the Commons. It had been carried last Session by very large majority in the House of Commons, being supported by many leading Members of the Conservative Party. Since last Session, his having charge of the Bill had brought him into communication with a large number of persons interested in the question. If the present Sittings ended by Prorogation, his introducing the Bill at present would be useless; but if they ended by an adjournment, its chance of

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  becoming law would be increased by being proceeded with now. He had presented a large number of Petitions in favour of the Bill, and it was certainly considered to be a subject of the greatest importance. It had excited more passionate interest among ladies than even the great subject of including them in the Franchise. If their Lordships desired that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, with the view of examining its details and making it as perfect a measure as possible, he had no objection.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he desired that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. He did not object to the principle or to the intention of the Bill; but it required very careful consideration and very careful guarding against possible mischiefs which might result from its provisions. He had been written to by a distinguished legal Member of the House of Commons requesting that he should watch this measure and take care that no harm would come of it. He might mention another name connected with the House of Commons, a solicitor who probably knew more about this matter than a barrister did, because he came much more into contact with the persons interested. This Gentleman also very much objected to the Bill in its present shape without some guard or qualification being introduced. He, therefore, thought the Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, it would be in their Lordships' recollection that many of those noble Lords who addressed the House in the last Session agreed as to the importance of the Bill, and the impossibility of insisting that those were unreasonable, who thought it necessary to examine its provisions with care, in order to see that they were such as were right in themselves and productive of no mischiefs. He was not really aware of any mischief which would be likely to result from the passing of the Bill exactly as it at present stood; but he agreed with his noble and learned Friend (Lord Bramwell) in saying that this was not the time for going into details, and the course which had been mentioned was
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  one which their Lordships ought to accede to.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a, accordingly, and referred to a Select Committee.
  And, on December 1, the Lords following were named of the Committee:

  L. Chancellor.

  L. Watson.

  D. Bedford.

  L. Brabourne.

  E. Cairns.

  L. Bramwell.

  L. Sudeley.

  L. FitzGerald.

  The Committee to appoint their own Chairman.

PUBLIC WORKS AND RECREATION GROUNDS (METROPOLIS)—THE MAIN DRAINAGE EMBANKMENT.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL COWPER,in rising to call attention to the great benefit which would be conferred upon the inhabitants of the crowded districts of Stratford, Plaistow, and East Ham if the Main Drainage Embankment passing through those districts could be converted into a public boulevard, said, the structure, on the top of which he wished to place a public walk, was a very large work, three miles in length and about 30 feet in breadth. It was raised above the level of the street, and it would enable persons on the top of it to obtain a breath of really fresh air, and to retire for a time from the noise and bustle of the streets. It would make a most acceptable walk, and would somewhat resemble the walks seen in some of their old towns along the top of walls. He would be glad to know what the objections of the Metropolitan Board of Works were in regard to the planting of this Embankment with trees and shrubs. To do so would not interfere with the works. No reason for objecting to do so had been given; and they were, therefore, driven to conjecture. One reason, it was supposed, was that there would be a certain amount of smell; but if there should be any from the drains it could be obviated by having ventilating shafts constructed at a small expense. Another objection that had been taken to the proposal was upon the ground of safety; but he thought that would be really one of the strongest arguments in its favour. At the present time there was a fence throughout the whole length of the Embankment, on each side of it, eight feet high, which afforded facilities for people bent on mischief hiding behind it. Therefore, there would be less danger if the

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  fence were down and the Embankment thrown open. West Ham was densely crowded with poor people, and it was extremely desirable to make this improvement to enable them to have recreation and enjoyment.
  EARL GRANVILLEremarked that they had only heard one side of the question; but, personally, he was inclined to say that his noble Friend had made out a good primâ facie case in favour of his proposal. He had, however, communicated with his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and he was informed by him that, as his noble Friend was probably aware, the matter primarily rested with the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Home Secretary had sent the Notice of his noble Friend to Sir James M'Garel-Hogg, the Chairman of the Board of Works, and had requested him to make his observations upon it. As soon as the reply was received the Home Secretary would consider it in connection with his powers in the matter; but, as his right hon. and learned Friend stated, it was very doubtful if he had any power at all. However, the Home Secretary would communicate with his noble Friend on receiving the reply.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, he thought that no opportunity whatever should be lost of calling the attention of the House to the possibility of providing fresh places of recreation for the people of the Metropolis, and this particular case was one which appeared to recommend itself to the consideration of the House. He recollected being present at the opening of the great Metropolitan sewer, and a great variety of benefits were then promised which had not all been entirely realized. It appeared to be a reproach on the Local Authorities in London that they should have to be awakened by means of private Associations to what appeared to be their paramount duty.
  LORD MOUNT-TEMPLEsaid, that the subject deserved attention from its bearing on the question of Municipal Reform. The Municipal Authorities in London ought to take into consideration the best means of affording recreation and healthy exercise to the masses. It was the misfortune of London that its open spaces were being rapidly covered with buildings; and it became neces-
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  sary that the Government of the Metropolis should look beyond the material advantages of drainage and convenient thoroughfares, and the employment of rates, and should look, as part of its duty, to the mode of meeting the comforts and enjoyments and happiness of the masses of toiling people who were placed beyond the reach of any open air exercise. It appeared that this Embankment might be made a promenade for the enjoyment of large numbers of people without any additional expense of any consequence; and he hoped that the Metropolitan Board of Works might rise to their great duties in that respect, and not suffer itself to fall behind the Corporation of London, who had preserved Epping Forest for the public, and had used their powers for the promotion of the comfort and enjoyment of the population under their control.
  LORD WAVENEYremarked on the improvement of ventilation in the low-lying North Woolwich district from the rush of air caused by the passage of the railway trains.

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he would ask the House to suspend its Sitting during pleasure. He proposed that their Lordships should meet to-morrow to forward a Money Bill and two other Bills which were not opposed, and that they should not meet for political purposes during the remainder of the week.
  SCOTTISH AND IRISH PEERAGES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the laws relating to the Representation in the House of Lords by election of the Scottish and Irish Peerages—Was presented by The Lord "WAVENEY; read 1a. (No. 10.)

  INCOME TAX BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow, and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with (The Earl Granville). (No. 11.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.