Lords Sitting of 11 November 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Justices' Jurisdiction (2); Law of Evidence Amendment (3).

NEW PEERS.
The Right Honourable John George Dodson having been created Baron Monk Bretton of Conyboro and of Hurst-pierpoint in the county of Sussex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Sir Walter Charles James, Baronet, having been created Baron Northbourne of Betteshanger in the county of Kent and of Jarrow Grange in the county palatine of Durham—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Arthur Saunders William Charles Pox, Earl of Arran in the Peerage of Ireland, having been created Baron Sudley of Castle Gore in the county of Mayo—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
John Robert William Viscount de Vesci in the Peerage of Ireland, having been created Baron de Vesci of Abbey Leix in the Queen's county—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

JUSTICES' JURISDICTION BILL.
(The Lord Bramwell.)
JUSTICES' JURISDICTION BILL.

  (NO. 2.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BRAMWELL, in rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to enable Justices at Quarter Sessions to try cases of burglary. The Bill had been already passed by their Lordships' House in a former Session, as also had the other Bill on the Notice Paper which he was about to ask their Lordships to read a second time. Both Bills were sent down to the other House, and heard of no more, and he supposed that would be their fate again. He did not say they had been treated with contempt, as had been charged against their Lordships by a right hon. Gentleman with reference to their treatment of the Custody of Infants Bill. He was quite sure that if the right hon. Gentleman who made that statement had known the facts of the case, he would have seen that it was utterly untrue. He appealed to the noble and learned Lord who had charge of the Bill (Lord Fitzgerald), and to the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack, to say whether there was anything like contempt, or anything but proper respect shown on the occasion of the discussion on that Bill? He hoped he had given a sufficient reason for making that statement to their Lordships.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Bramwell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 3.)
(The Lord Bramwell.)
LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 3.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BEAMWELL, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to remove the disability of all persons, including married women, to give evidence in Courts of Justice.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Bramwell.)
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, in reference to what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord as to the Custody of Infants Bill, he quite agreed that it was not treated with the slightest contempt in their Lordships' House. It was introduced in the House of Commons in February last, and was not brought up to their Lordships' House till the 4th of August. It had passed through the other House after much discussion, and its rejection was moved on more than one occasion. No doubt it came up to their Lordships with the very high sanction of the Law Officers of England and Scotland, and of Sir R. Assheton Cross and other leading Members of Parliament, and he undertook the charge of it in that House. It was a Bill dealing with a very important matter, as it proposed to alter the law in reference to the custody of infants. Objections were taken to the Bill by the noble and learned Earl opposite (Earl Cairns), who asked him not to press it on at that late period of the Session, as, if he did, he should be obliged to move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He (Lord Fitzgerald) felt the force of the observations of the noble and learned Earl, and could not resist a Motion to refer the measure to a Committee upstairs. It was only in consequence of the late period of the Session that he felt compelled to withdraw the Bill. He had hoped to introduce the Bill again this Session, and would have done so if he knew that there would be an Adjournment, and not a Prorogation. At all events, he hoped to introduce it next Session.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, it was certainly somewhat irregular for a conversation of this sort to take place on the Bill before the House, as it was irrelevant to it; but as they had not much to do that evening, and as they had excused his noble and learned Friend, so he hoped their Lordships would excuse him if he made a few observations in reference to the statement made by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell). He confessed that he shared in the disappointment very naturally felt by those who, with great labour and pains, had conducted the Custody of Infants Bill through the House of Commons almost against hope. After the best study that he (the Lord Chancellor) could give to the Bill, he
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  thought that the general object and principles of the Bill were sound, and its provisions well considered, and that their Lordships' House would be justified in passing it. He would, therefore, have been very glad if his noble and learned Friends, whose assistance the House looked for, had been as far advanced in their judgment upon the merits of the Bill as himself. But he could not but say that it appeared to him improper to deny the right of such great authorities as his noble and learned Friends to have time for the deliberate consideration of changes in the law on a subject of such great importance. His noble and learned Friends thought at that time — the Session being close at an end—that there was not sufficient time for consideration. He felt, therefore, unable to resist the proposal of his noble and learned Friend (Earl Cairns), that the Bill should be postponed, because he did not think it would be reasonable—or, indeed, possible—to press the matter at that time against the opinions of his noble and learned Friends.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that his noble and learned Friend (Earl Cairns), who was not then present, was himself very much influenced by the fact that the Bill had not undergone any careful or exhaustive discussion in the House of Commons, and that it had passed through its several stages at very late hours of the night. He had thought that the subject was not one of trifling importance, because the Bill, if passed, might have made a revolution in the domestic concerns of a vast number of families in this country. Therefore, his noble and learned Friend thought that under those circumstances it would not be seemly, right, or safe to put upon the Statute Book a law of this kind, without the certainty that it had been fully considered by at least one of the Houses of Parliament.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

IRELAND—THE NEW MUSEUM OF SCIENCE AND ART, DUBLIN.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT POWERSCOURT, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, The reason for the delay in commencing the works for the new Dublin Science

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  and Art Museum? said, he had received private information that the matter had been settled; and, therefore, he need not detain their Lordships about it. But the Dublin public were very anxious on the subject, and they would be glad to have a public intimation that the building was about to be commenced.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in reply, said, that there were questions raised by the Treasury upon the designs for the new building, and that they had involved a good deal of correspondence between the different Departments; but those questions were now settled. He was glad to tell his noble Friend that all was now going smoothly, and that, at the beginning of this month, the Treasury had sent their order to the Board of Works in Dublin to enter into a contract for the erection of the remaining buildings.

THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON'S STATUE—THE SITE AT ALDERSHOT.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDasked, Whether any steps had been taken towards re-erecting the statue of the Duke of Wellington in a suitable spot at Aldershot Camp; and, when the work in question was likely to be completed?
  LORD SUDELEY: In reply to the noble Viscount, I have to state that the statue of the Duke of Wellington is now safely housed at Aldershot, where it will be erected in the course of next year. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales proposes shortly to visit Aldershot, in order, in conjunction with the Military Authorities there, to select an appropriate site.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, that this was an instance of the inconvenience of dealing with a question by halves. The Question of the noble Viscount (Viscount Enfield) only referred to half the matter—the re-erection of the statue—and it did not take into consideration the completion of the alterations and improvements at Hyde Park Corner. He would remind their Lordships that last Session they had also the assurance given them that there should be no unreasonable delay in re-erecting the statue in a suitable manner, and yet the delay had occurred. It was obvious now that the object was to clear the space in order to make room for future statuary and other ornamental decora-
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  tions at Hyde Park Corner, and that those things were much more in the mind of those who had promoted the scheme than any honour to the Duke of Wellington.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.