§ THE EARL OF WEMYSS, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, (1) Whether Sir Evelyn Baring was still of opinion that the sending of Zebehr Pasha to the Soudan would be desirable; (2) whether there was any truth in the statement that appeared in the Pall Mall Gazette on Saturday, that Turkish troops were about to be employed in the Soudan? said, the whole conduct of the Government in relation to General Gordon threw a light on some of the worst features of Party Government. On Friday night, when a noble Lord called attention to the necessity of taking some speedy steps for relieving General Gordon and rescuing the garrisons in the Soudan, the Foreign Minister, in reply, stated that General Gordon could not possibly claim any military help from us for the evacuation of the Soudan because he went there on the clear understanding that nothing of the kind was intended. From the tone taken by his noble Friend and Ministers on this question one would imagine that they had the public opinion of the world and of this country at their back. Anyone who read the newspapers knew that the world at large were looking with amazement at General Gordon's position in relation to Her Majesty's Government, and what all Englishmen thought he need not say. The other day a foreign Minister told him, that owing to this business England was spoken of very badly all over the Continent, and his retort was that she could not be spoken of worse than she was spoken of by Englishmen themselves. As regarded home opinions, his noble Friend knew that very lately Her Majesty's Government escaped censure, he might say, only by the skin of their teeth, and that 1451 it took all the power of the screw of which the Caucus was capable to procure them a majority of 28 out of a nominal majority of 130. Was not General Gordon justified in expecting support from Her Majesty's Government? What were the circumstances under which he went? He went a lone man, a forlorn hope, with his life in his hands, to bring order out of the chaos which the Government had created, and to rescue the garrisons. Although he was not to get military assistance, at least his requests and what he considered the best means of effecting the objects for which he went should have been attended to. But the fact was that those requests had been refused, and General Gordon had been controlled and thwarted in every way before he was finally abandoned, and before he gave utterance to that exceeding bitter cry about the dishonour which would attach to the British Government for the sacrifice of the garrisons. When he announced his intention of going to the Mahdi, that was forbidden by Her Majesty's Government. He ought not to have been prevented, for he was on the spot and ought to have known best what should be done. He proposed first, that Zebehr should not be allowed to remain at Cairo; but that was not assented to. His next request was, that Zebehr should be sent to him to the Soudan. That request was refused, though it was strongly backed by Sir Evelyn Baring. Why was it refused? Was it because the Government believed that Zebehr was powerless to do any good? No; the reason was, because Her Majesty's Government were afraid of two things—first, the Anti-Slavery Society; and, secondly, that the slavery question would be taken up against them by the Opposition. He was bound to say, in all candour, that there were great signs of such a proceeding on the part of the Opposition, and he, at the time, entered his protest against it in that House. But whatever the Anti-Slavery Society or the Opposition might say or do, it was the duty of the Government to stand by General Gordon. Nothing could have been stronger than the opinion which Sir Evelyn Baring held as to the advantage of sending Zebehr to the Soudan, as was shown by the latest records they had in the Blue Books. As late as the 14th of April, in 1452 a despatch to Earl Granville, Sir Evelyn Baring said—
If any better solution is found I should he the first to admit that I was in error in recommending that Zebehr should be sent to the Soudan.But had a better solution been found? He was inclined to believe, from all he heard, that Sir Evelyn Baring still held the opinion that it was very desirable that Zebehr should have been sent to the Soudan, and that, if he had been sent, we should not now be in the miserable position in which we found ourselves. With regard to the sending of British troops to the Soudan, no one desired that such a step should be taken at this time of the year; but what was the cause of the difficulty? It might be summed up in the two words "too late." Those two little monosyllables signified a good deal. The Government had been too late in every proceeding excepting one—the bombardment of Alexandria; though, no doubt the Government had been anxious about the Suez Canal. As regarded his second Question, he would ask why had not the Government employed Turkish troops in the Soudan? Was it because the Primo Minister did not wish to crush the Mahdi? or "Could it be," as asked by a Scotch lady, who had offered to give £1,000 towards the relief of General Gordon, "that General Gordon was to be allowed to perish because of Mr. Gladstone's hatred to the Turks?" He (the Earl of Wemyss) trusted that the Government were going to send Turkish troops to the Soudan, as they would speedily relieve General Gordon and the garrison at Khartoum. They could be better employed in that country than English troops. No doubt, an English force would be perfectly ready to go if necessary; but if the Government sent out English soldiers bloodshed would be the result, and they did not desire to see sorrow again brought to English homes. If, in consequence of another expedition, sorrow was again introduced into British homes, it would unquestionably be due to the action and inaction of the Government. The policy of Her Majesty's Government had, so far as it had gone, brought chaos into the Soudan, and if they were to judge of what had taken place it was likely to end in the abandonment of English interests; the grand consummation of 1453 all the bloodshed which had taken place in Egypt appeared to be the substitution of a Multiple for a Dual Control, with all its manifold dangers.
§ EARL GRANVILLEIt is a little cruel of my noble Friend, with such a charming smile on his countenance, to say such severe and bitter things of Her Majesty's Government; but, at the same time, I admit that he is more entitled than almost any one in this House to ask why we did not meet General Gordon's wishes in regard to Zebehr. It is quite true that when the noble Earl the late Secretary of State for the Colonies was leading an anti-slavery crusade—
THE EARL OF CARNARVONI beg your pardon; I never led an anti-slavery crusade. I shall be glad if the noble Earl will specify any words of mine which lead him to believe that I led an anti-slavery crusade, or in which he can find one single allusion or one single sentence in regard to it. If he can, it has entirely escaped my recollection.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI will have The Times searched, and will endeavour to find what the noble Earl has said. If, however, the noble Earl refers to the ordinary sources of information, I think he will find that he was trying to make Party profit out of the notion that the Government was encouraging slavery. But the only thing I really regret about the noble Earl's (the Earl of Wemyss's) proceedings, is that, having this strong feeling as to the sending of Zebehr, which, as he said, the Government were only deterred from doing from fear of the Anti-Slavery Society and the Opposition, he did not take the opportunity some weeks ago, when the question was of a more practical character, of testing the feeling of your Lordships in this House upon the subject. How many of your Lordships would have followed him into the Lobby in favour of Zebehr? The question was a very important one after the anti-slavery feeling which had been displayed against Her Majesty's Government; but there are other considerations with are more important. Here is a man whom Sir Evelyn Baring did not think safe to be with General Gordon, because his hatred of that brave General was his strongest feature, and it constituted a grave danger to the Soudan as well as to Egypt. Then my noble Friend asked me whether we had 1454 consulted Sir Evelyn Baring? The fact is, we have not consulted Sir Evelyn Baring, because the Government had no intention of sending Zebehr to the Soudan. We knew that Sir Evelyn Baring at the time had expressed his opinion in favour of sending Zebehr, and it was to us a matter of indifference whether he continued to hold that opinion or not. I should have been glad to have had an opportunity of speaking to him within the last few days; but my regret on that point is somewhat mitigated by a half-hour's conversation with the great arbiter in this House between the Liberal and the Conservative Parties. Having had that conversation, everything else is of a secondary character. All I can say about the Turks is, that there is a difference between being prepared to take measures for General Gordon's safety which we consider necessary, and being prepared to accede to his wish that Turks should go and make war in the interior of the Soudan, to conquer which has never been a portion of our policy. Therefore, my answers to the two Questions must be those which I have given to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYasked whether it was the case that General Gordon did wish that Turkish troops should go into the interior of the Soudan? He could find nothing of the kind in the Blue Books.
§ EARL GRANVILLEThe noble Earl has nearly the same access to information as I have. I think I have read a telegram from General Gordon in which he said he wished to have some Turks in order, to use his own idiomatic expression, to "smash up the Mahdi;" and, so far as I know, the Mahdi resides somewhere in the interior of Africa.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut the noble Earl has not answered my noble Friend's Question, whether there is any truth in the statement that Turkish troops are to be employed in the Soudan?
§ EARL GRANVILLEIf the noble Marquess will give me a copy of the paper, I shall be glad to see -what is there stated; but I am not responsible for statements appearing in newspapers.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt is difficult to cross-examine the noble Earl, and, therefore, I wish to ask him are Turkish troops to be employed in the Soudan?
§ EARL GRANVILLEThe noble Lord has coupled with his request the Question, whether Turks were going to be sent, in the absence of British troops, at this time of the year, to relieve General Gordon? and I have to inform him that that is not the case.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThat is not the Question. It is this—Are Turkish troops about to be employed in the Soudan? That is the Question?
§ [No reply.]
LORD ELLENBOROUGHThe Question is this—Is it within the knowledge of the Government that Turkish troops are about to enter any portion of the Soudan?
§ [No reply.]