Lords Sitting of 31 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Report—Medical Act Amendment*(34).
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders*(33), and passed.

HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF ALBANY.

  ADDRESS OF CONDOLENCE TO HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN.
  EARL, GRANVILLE: My Lords, it was my painful duty on Friday last to announce to your Lordships the death of His Royal Highness Prince Leopold, the Duke of Albany—a death rendered all the more lamentable by its suddenness and the youth of him who has thus passed away. I rise now to ask your Lordships to join in the Addresses of Condolence of which I have given Notice it was my intention to move. Ten years ago, the, question of a Parlia-

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  mentary Grant gave occasion to the Leaders of both the political Parties in the two Houses of Parliament to speak of Prince Leopold in words of praise such as are not often applicable to so young a man. Public opinion has since that time pronounced its verdict, that there was no mere flattery and exaggeration in the words which were at that time used. Ill-health, which so often destroys the energy and faculties of its victims, in Prince Leopold's case only turned his thoughts into intellectual channels. He studied letters, science, and art in different lines; and, in imitation of his illustrious Father, and very much in the same spirit, he applied the results of those studies in persistent efforts to raise all classes, and especially the lower and poorer classes, in this country to a higher level of enjoyment and of knowledge. It was only three years ago that His Royal Highness became a Member of this House, and if he did not take a leading part in your Lordships' discussions it was exclusively owing to that judicious determination of the Members of the present Royal Family that it is better that they should not be mixed up in political and Party strife. In all other respects he was qualified to take a foremost part among your Lordships—he had the voice, the manner, the culture, and the thought necessary for a first-rate speaker. He took great interest in political questions, in home politics, in foreign politics, and especially in Colonial politics. He gave frequent assistance to the Queen in Her Majesty's manifold daily political work, and his own strong wish—I may say his concentrated ambition—was to be employed in the service of the State. I do not think it is here or now necessary for me to dwell upon the merits of his private life. There are many of your Lordships who know hill well his capacity for friendship, his affectionate feelings, and his simplicity and modesty of bearing, although associated with the consciousness of mental power. I ask your Lordships to join in these Addresses. They express not only your own feelings, as one of the greatest Bodies in the State, but they are typical of the universal sympathy full in this country, and in the great Dependencies of this country—of sympathy with the widowed Mother, the most prosperous Sovereign who ever ruled over this
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  country, but who yet has received such heavy blows in her domestic relations; and they express feelings of sympathy with that young Widow, soon about to become for the second time a mother, who has seen in one short moment shattered the unalloyed happiness of a marriage which was based on mutual attachment and on love. My Lords. I beg to move the Address which stands in my name.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to perform the melancholy task of seconding, on behalf of the noble Lords who sit on this side of the House, the Motion which the noble Earl has made. I am sure that all your Lordships will be anxious at this moment to proffer your sympathy to the Sovereign and to the Widow, and to give expression to feelings which have found voice, not only among every class in England, but wherever the English tongue is spoken. The bitterness of a bereavement lies in the sudden contrast that a few hours may make, and there never was a contrast more sudden or more terrible than this. An exalted position, high intellectual powers, rapidly unfolding gilts of eloquence and culture, great popularity, a recent and happy marriage—all these things were his on Thursday night, and were all swept away in the few short hours of Friday morning. If ever the sympathy of subjects can carry any balm of consolation for so great a grief to those who have suffered so suddenly, I am sure it will be freely offered, and I am sure it will be kindly and graciously received on the present occasion, even though our words can do little to efface the sting which death has left. My Lords, the loss is not merely an individual loss; it is a loss to the whole nation, and to every class of it. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) has dwelt in vivid but fitting terms on the great powers possessed by the deceased Prince, and on his great anxiety to use them for the Public Service. He had given proof—though he was not able to do it in this House—he had given proof outside of many of the gifts which he had inherited from his Father, and which, by constant industry and culture, he was developing, and which promised a brilliant future. It was his lot to take part in many movements for the elevation and benefit of the people of this country. He threw himself into them

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  with cordiality and heartiness, and, in addressing himself to subjects which, by the very generality of their interest, might have a tendency to become common-place, it was always his gift to touch, in his speeches upon these subjects, some new chord of sympathy, and to give proof of special penetration, of fresh and unhackneyed thought. There was every prospect, if life had been spared, of a career of devoted service to the public, of great and singular talents in a position singularly fitted for their effective exercise. All that hope has been cut off. We have now only to reverence his memory and mourn his loss. In carrying this Vote of Condolence to the foot of the Throne, and to the Wife whom he has left behind him, your Lordships will be expressing your sorrow for a grief which has smitten not only the Throne, but all classes of this country.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to express the deep concern of this House at the great loss which Her Majesty has sustained by the death of His Royal Highness Prince Leopold George Duncan Albert, fourth son of Her Majesty the Queen, and to condole with Her Majesty on this melancholy occasion:
  "To assure Her Majesty that this House will over fool the warmest interest in whatever concerns Her Majesty's domestic relations; and to declare the ardent wishes of this House for the happiness of Her Majesty and of Her family." —(The Earl Granville.)
  On Question, agreed to nemine dissentiente.
  Ordered, That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF ALBANY.

  ADDRESS OF CONDOLENCE TO HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUCHESS OF ALBANY.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I beg to move the second Resolution of which I have given Notice.
  Moved to resolve, "That this House do condole with Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany on the loss which she has sustained by the death of His Royal Highness the Duke of Albany."—(The Earl Granville.)
  On Question, agreed to nemine dissentiente.
  Ordered, That a message of condolence be sent to Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany, and that the Duke of Richmond and the Duke of Bedford do attend Her Royal Highness with the said message.

RAILWAYS—CONTINUOUS BRAKES—LEGISLATION.—QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARRasked Her Majesty's Government, When it is proposed to introduce the Railway Brakes Bill?
LORD SUDELEY: I am informed by the President of the Board of Trade that he intends very shortly to introduce into the other House the Railway Bill which was referred to in the Queen's Speech at the opening of this Session, and that in this Bill the question of continuous brakes will be dealt with.

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—THE MAHDI.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD COLCHESTER, in rising to ask, Whether Her Majesty's Government have any information leading them to believe that the Mahdi is disposed to accept the offers made to him relative to Kordofan; whether such acceptance would imply the abandonment of all temporal or spiritual pretensions outside that province; and, whether the forces lately in conflict with British troops in the Eastern Soudan were not avowedly in arms for the purpose of establishing the authority of the Mahdi in that region? said, the Question he wished to put to Her Majesty's Ministers bore on a point which had never been distinctly made clear in any of the explanations given, either in that House or "elsewhere." The revolt, headed by the Mahdi, before Her Majesty's Government entered on their recent policy, was one the objects of which could not be limited to any one Province or even to the Soudan itself, being directed to establish a supremacy for a Leader who claimed to bear the commission of a Prophet over all Mussulman lands which it could overrun. Her Majesty's Government, however, had considered that, by recognizing the independence of the Soudan, they would stop the tide of that movement. They relied, apparently, on the language of Colonel Stewart, pointing out that, but for the oppression of the country, the Mahdi would not have been able to light that conflagration, a statement by no means necessarily implying that now that numbers of followers had accepted the Mahdi's mission, and that victories like those over Hicks and Baker had led them to believe his

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  cause irresistible in its power, they would be ready to set bounds to their progress, till, as had partly occurred, their strength had been broken. The first thing they had heard after General Gordon's mission was that he recommended no direct dealing with the Mahdi. The next thing was that he proclaimed him Prince of Kordofan. This, they had been told, was recognizing an established fact. But recognizing such a power as that of the Mahdi was making the fact more significant, which, if it was unconnected with any conditions, tended only to make him more confident in his pretensions. They did not know the terms of that offer, or how it had been received. He had seen that one of the organs of the Liberal Party in the Press stated, as a fact, that the Mahdi was favourably disposed to England, which, no doubt, made it appear more strange to many that we should be engaged in a struggle with his lieutenant, Osman Digna. The same report stated that El Obeid was in complete anarchy, the Mahdi having performed no administrative acts beyond certain executions, a state of things which, if true, did not augur well for the success of the policy which recognized him as a Sultan. He (Lord Colchester) did not wish to express any particular censure of the operations lately undertaken in the vicinity of Suakin, though it was natural enough that those who did believe in the policy of the Government, those who did think that a solution of the question was to be obtained by leaving the Soudan to itself, might have been bitterly disappointed at such a result, and disposed to denounce, as useless slaughter, that warfare against those they had been told only desired to be rid of Egyptian oppression. It might seem repugnant that men of determined valour should be slain by thousands by the mere mechanical superiority of the arms of European troops; but it was clear that the followers of Osman Digna were desperate and dangerous fanatics, neither giving nor accepting mercy, and whose triumph meant the extermination or slavery of all who, whether Christian or Mussulman, did not accept their Prophet's mission. If the views of Her Majesty's Government were, that it was necessary to allow no troops professing allegiance to the Mahdi to approach the
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  Red Sea shore, he did not dispute that it might have been a right policy. But their satisfaction must be diminished by finding that all their victories resulted only in driving the enemy into a country a few marches inland, where they could not he followed. Since the Notice of the Question had been given there had been still graver news from Khartoum. It appeared that the policy of withdrawal from a liberated Soudan had ended by involving us in a war with the Mahdi, a war alike by the Nile and the Red Sea, the practical purpose of which must be to compel him to take the step he could hardly do without ruining his cause—that of abdicating the position of a quasi-Caliph to accept that of a local Prince. He would conclude by asking the Question of which he had given Notice.
  EARL GRANVILLE, in reply, said, that the answer to the first part of the Question must be in the negative. Her Majesty's Government had no information of the kind the noble Lord asked for; and, that being the case, he was unable to give any answer to the second part, which was dependent on the first. In reply to the third part, he believed there was no doubt whatever that the Natives, who fought against Her Majesty's troops near Suakin, professed to do it for the purpose of establishing the authority of the Mahdi in that part of the country.

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—RELIEF OF GENERAL GORDON.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNwas understood to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether the arrangements which were reported to have been made for the departure of our troops from Suakin could be delayed or postponed, as it would be a great advantage if the Government could devise some means—the road to Berber and Khartoum being now open, and there being plenty of water—to render assistance to General Gordon? They would probably meet with no resistance, and would be of the greatest service in relieving General Gordon in his task of defending the lines of Khartoum. He should like also to have some information respecting the health of the troops.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I do not wish, on my own personal authority,

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  to controvert anything that has been said by the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn). There is no doubt whatever that we have reason to be deeply grateful for the general state of health of the troops near Suakin at this present moment, for it is very satisfactory. At the same time, your Lordships will remember that very great hardships were for some time endured by them, and great difficulties experienced in respect to obtaining a supply of water; and I rather think that the noble and gallant Lord will allow that a march of 240 miles into the interior, when the climate is becoming worse every day, is hardly the same thing as the late advance of a few miles inland from Suakin. As to defending the lines at Khartoum, no doubt, it is very desirable they should be properly protected; but I must remind the noble and gallant Lord that General Gordon is undoubtedly a very great General; and not only so, but he is one of the most distinguished members of the Engineer Corps of this country.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I had hoped that the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) would have taken advantage of the opportunity of these two questions to have made some statement to the House with respect to the present anxious and lamentable position of affairs in Egypt, and would have given us some indication of the policy which Her Majesty's Government are prepared, under the circumstances, to pursue. I should have been glad if it were possible for the noble Earl to tell us in what manner it is intended to hold Suakin, and in what manner it is intended to relieve General Gordon; for I imagine that both of these objects must be constantly present to the mind of Her Majesty's Government, and that they must surely have formed some plan for achieving them. I must confess that, as far as matters have gone at present, although I can quite understand the hesitation which the military authorities in this country may well feel before authorizing a march from Suakin to Berber—an undertaking which, although sanctioned by the great authority of my noble and gallant Friend (Lord Strathnairn), yet is evidently one that is surrounded with difficulty—although I can understand their hesitation in this respect, yet the particular objects and aims of the policy of the Govern-
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  ment are to my mind more shrouded in mystery than they ever were before. As far as the gallantry of our soldiers or the ability of our officers is concerned, we must look back on the last few weeks with the most unfeigned congratulation. There has been nothing but that which we can felicitate ourselves upon; but if we ask ourselves what are the results that have been obtained by this campaign, I do not see that we can give any other answer than that some 6,000 Blacks and some 200 Whites have been killed. I cannot see that any other result has been obtained. The lines of Suakin are just as defensible now as they were then, and they were just as defensible then as they are now. No change whatever has been made in that respect by the operations which were undertaken. There is no doubt that a great advantage might have been gained if it had been possible to impress the Native mind with any permanent and abiding belief in our power and the fear of our resentment. But have we been able to impress them with any such feeling? Is there any sign that such a conviction has reached their minds? On the contrary, is not that sudden retirement certain to impress them with the very opposite conviction? They do not understand the mysterious ways of your policy; they cannot understand that you have made such a great expedition with the mere object of shooting so many Blacks and then coming back again. They must have thought that there was some ulterior object which we intended to achieve, and it is perfectly clear that we have not achieved it by immediate retirement. They can draw no other conclusion than that your campaign has absolutely failed. I regret very much that this should be the result; but the impression of which I speak is the natural result of what I must think the hasty and uncalculating action of Her Majesty's Government. They do not seem, at any stage of these long troubles, to have looked for two or three months a-head of the very period in which they were acting. They appear to have never asked themselves—"If this move fails, what will be the next move to take? "And the result is that we find ourselves forced by the climate to withdraw our troops at the very moment when some advantage might have been obtained from the sacrifices

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  that we have made, and the blood that has unfortunately been shed. This has been simply the result of the miscalculation of the Government. I suppose they have formed some plan for the future. I suppose that there are some arrangements by which trustworthy troops will be left to defend Suakin, the defence of which has been held hitherto to be the great object of all our efforts. Then, I suppose that the gallant man who has gone to Khartoum, with his life in his hand, in order to retrieve the blunders of English policy, will not be abandoned to his fate; but I shall be glad to know by what means Her Majesty's Government propose to attain objects which appear to be so unattainable.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that before this Question was passed, he would like to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether Her Majesty's Government had received any official confirmation of the news which had appeared in the newspapers with respect to the defeat of General Gordon at Khartoum?
  EARL GRANVILLE, in reply, said, that he had heard—and he was sorry to say the news was perfectly true—that a sortie had been made by the garrison from Khartoum, which had not been successful; but the Government were awaiting fuller information with respect to the engagement and the position of affairs at Khartoum. He wished to add, however, that Her Majesty's Government had confidence in General Gordon as to his maintaining his position at that place.

MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord President.)

(NO. 34.) REPORT.
Order of the Day for Consideration of the Report of Amendments read.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he was anxious that the Bill should reach the other House of Parliament before the Easter holidays; and he proposed that its third reading should be taken on Thursday. He had an Amendment, which he would move on Thursday, relating to the constitution of the Medical Board in Ireland. Having added a representative to the Board from the Medical Colleges and Corporations in Ireland, he had proposed, at the same
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time, to give an additional member to be elected conjointly by the Irish Universities; and he had had, as he thought, reason to think that that proposal would be acceptable. Since the last stage of the Bill, he understood, on the contrary, that the proposal was extremely unacceptable, and he found it necessary to give it up. He would put an Amendment on the Paper that evening which would have the effect of giving an additional representative on the Board to each of those Universities.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he could not conceive how there should be any such haste in proceeding with the Bill; because, even if it went down to the other House before Easter, was there any chance of that House proceeding with the measure for a very long time to come? At an early part of the Session the noble Lord the President of the Council told their Lordships that he was extremely anxious to proceed with the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill, that it might go down to the other House and be discussed there. Well, that Bill had gone down to the other House, and they knew well the condition in which it now was. It had been put down for a Morning Sitting, and the result was that several Members made long speeches, and the House was obliged to adjourn. That was not the way in which the Government, if it were in earnest about passing the Bill, should have treated it. During the last stage of the Bill now before their Lordships, the noble Lord had come to an understanding with his noble and learned Friend (Earl Cairns), and agreed to introduce a clause in reference to the representation of the Universities and Medical Corporations on the Board.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): I assure the noble Duke that the proposal I make is entirely consonant with what passed between me and the noble and learned Earl opposite (Earl Cairns), and is found in the Amendment of which I have given Notice. I privately informed the noble and learned Earl that I was about to propose the Amendment; and I now suggest that it would be convenient that I should propose it on Thursday.
THE DUKE, OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: As I understood the noble

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and learned Earl (Earl Cairns) and the agreement referred to, there were to be four members in each University and in each Corporation. I understood the noble Lord the President of the Council to modify that, and to say that there wore to be three members in each University and one other member to be chosen.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): I have given that up.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: If the noble Lord is proposing to insert, on the third reading, a clause that will have the effect of giving four members to each University and three to each Corporation that is an alteration to which I should not object.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): That is precisely the effect of the Amendment of which I have now given Notice. My Amendment, as now proposed, will give four members on the Board of each of the Universities and three to each of the Corporations.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: I should not have troubled the noble Lord if he had explained that at first.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): I think if the noble Duke had followed the progress of the Bill he would have understood it.
Amendments reported, and agreed to.
Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.