Lords Sitting of 28 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Isle of Man Harbours* (47).
Committee—Intestates Estates* (6–46).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders* (33).

Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 1
[47 Vict. c. 4]: Valuation (Metropolis) Amendment [47 Vict. c. 5].
DEATH OF HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF ALBANY.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, it is with deep concern that I have to announce to your Lordships that Her Majesty the Queen has lost her youngest Son, the Duke of Albany, by death, at Cannes. I do not propose to move the adjournment of the House, for in these matters it is better not to yield to natural impulse, but to follow the precedents which have been set in both Houses of Parliament. I, therefore, wish to give Notice that on Monday I shall move an Address of Condolence to the Queen and the Duchess of Albany.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, in the absence of my noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury), I merely rise to say that which he would have said much bettor—namely, that it is with

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  deep grief and consternation that we have heard this announcement. After what the noble Earl has said it would not be proper for me to add another word.

DOMINION OF CANADA—STATE-AIDED EMIGRATION.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for copies or extracts of correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the President of the Canada Pacific Railway in regard to State-aided emigration to Canada; also for copies or extracts of correspondence on the same subject between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr. F. Boyd,"
  said, that the Motion of which he had given Notice needed some brief explanation. First of all, he desired to call attention to the congested state of the labour market. The state of things there, as their Lordships knew, was grievous. It was even more than that—it was dangerous. Of course, there were many modes in which this great difficulty might be met. A great deal might be done by improved accommodation with respect to their houses; but, although that touched one very important side of the question, it could not cover the whole ground. In order to produce any real and permanent improvement, nothing short of emigration, and emigration on a large scale, would meet the case. Immigration from the country to London had been one great cause of the distress, and now emigration from London must take place. Here, in London, they had an excessive population, stagnation of the labour market, low wages, or rather in many parts no wages, and high rents, combining to make a state of things only to be described as utter misery, and that condition was increasing. In their Colonies, on the other hand, within only a few days' sail from this country, there were large tracts of magnificent land, high wages, ample work, and a desire—in fact a demand—for labour. But then it had been asked why it was that no advantage had been taken of this. This was partly due to the ignorance of the classes themselves whom it affected, and partly to the absence of proper machinery for the purpose. Voluntary organization had done, and was doing,
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  a great deal to remedy the evil. The Local Governments themselves subscribed largely to the expenses of emigration, Canada paying a quarter, and Australia nearly one-half of the cost; but something over and above all that was needed, and the question he desired to bring before their Lordships by his Motion was, how far the Government might assist that emigration? It was true there were many objections that might be urged against this. It was constantly said, sometimes in speeches and sometimes in print, that the aid of the State involved the principle of Communism; but it was very easy to blacken the merits of any scheme by giving it a name of that sort; and it was always to be remembered that, if there was any Communism involved in such aid, we already had that principle in our Poor Laws. A more practical objection was that there would be great difficulty in selecting the emigrants; but he felt confident, for his own part, that machinery qualified for dealing with the subject could be devised. It never could be contemplated as desirable to emigrate the worthless portion of the class they were endeavouring to relieve; they must be such as would be approved of by the Colonial authorities of the places to which they were going. He would admit that there were a great many who were disqualified by the life they had led for the agricultural life of the Colonies: but there, were undoubtedly many, also, that were by character, habits, and occupation, perfectly well fitted for it. Another objection which was raised was that by State emigration they were taxing the Mother Country to send out labour for the benefit of the Colonies. The answer to this, however, was simple. No doubt, by that system, great benefit accrued to the Colonies; but the benefit to this country was quite as great in sending the unemployed elsewhere. Then, the schemes referred to in the Correspondence in question did not go to provide cheap labour for the Colonists; the idea was that they were to be settled upon land of their own, and should become farmers and small proprietors, not that they should work for any other person. The next objection made against the aid of the State in emigration was, to his mind, perhaps the most important of all. It was said that when the State interfered, there

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  was great danger that they would injure voluntary effort. If he had thought that voluntary effort would be seriously injured by such a change in policy, he certainly would not have advocated any such scheme; but, in this case, voluntary effort had proved unequal to the great strain put upon it. A very large number, it was true, had been sent out; but they formed, in reality, merely a small portion of those who should be assisted, and there was necessity for larger means and stronger organization. A further objection made was that there was no surplus labour to send out of the country. He replied—"See with your own eyes." He thought that no one could hold such an argument who had ever witnessed the piteous scenes that took place at the dock gates in London. Even in agricultural district, machinery had thrown a quantity of labour out of employment. It was sometimes said that in sending out emigrants in this manner they would not send out the best class. He quite admitted that those sent out would not be the best class; but, for his part, he would be sorry to see the best class sent out of the country. There was an intermediate class between the best and the worst, who, under more favourable circumstances than those under which they now had to exist, were easily convertible into excellent workmen, and would become admirable Colonists. There was only one other objection which he could remember having heard against such a plan, and that was that in any of these schemes there might be considerable difficulty in getting the money refunded by the Colonist to the Government. A certain portion of the money might, perhaps, be lost; but the security taken was sufficiently good security to guarantee a very large proportion of the money being recovered; and even if a small portion of the money should be lost, he maintained that the experiment was worth trying. It might be urged that what he was advocating was a now doctrine; but he did not think that it was so new as many supposed. His noble Friend opposite would be aware that Boards of Guardians were entitled to raise money in aid of emigration, and during the last 60 or 70 years there had been a steady growth in this direction. A Statute of the Reign of William IV. gave power to owners and occupiers to raise money for
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  this purpose, and by a Statute of the present Reign the power had been largely increased. The whole tenour and tendency of recent practice and legislation on that subject had been to remove restrictions and give fresh facilities. But, further, there was a department at the Colonial Office which existed for rather more than 30 years—between 1840 and 1871—which was so constituted as to superintend the passage of emigrants, and during that time it superintended the departure from this country of between 6,000,000 and 7,000,000 of emigrants. He had not been able to satisfy himself how far that emigration had been assisted by Votes of Parliament or by grants in aid, but on certain occasions public money had been voted for it in exceptional instances. The Irish Famine, he thought, was one of thorn; and the expense of that office itself and the establishment connected with it was defrayed from public sources. Therefore, it could hardly be contended that that doctrine was altogether a new one. Their Lordships would remember that three years ago, when the Irish Laud Act passed in that House, there was a clause which enabled the Government to raise money without limitation as to amount for purposes of emigration. In the other House of Parliament, at the instance of certain Irish Members, that clause was very much cut down and limited. When the Bill was before their Lordships he endeavoured to give the provision some additional scope and enlargement; but the Amendment was not accepted. The clause was much reduced and stunted in its operation; but even so the Irish Government were empowered to raise £200,000 for emigration; and therefore, so far as the principle went, it had been admitted in recent times. In advocating such a system of emigration he held that certain limits and conditions must be laid down. The principal conditions should, it seemed to him, be, first, that the emigrant should be a fit and competent man—that was by agricultural knowledge, and capacity, and also by physical strength; secondly, there should be a satisfactory and competent machinery for selection—a machinery which would adequately represent the local authorities, and pass, as it were, through the sieve the various applicants for emigration; thirdly, it was important that the emigration should be so sufficiently gradual

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  as to be absorbed without inconvenience by the new country to which the emigrants were sent; and, lastly, some security should be taken for repayment by the emigrant, either in whole or in part of the money advanced. There had been in that Correspondence various proposals that would, more or less, carry out those objects. He now asked for the Correspondence that had passed between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr. Stephens, the President of the Canada Pacific Railway, and also for the Correspondence between the Secretary of State and Mr. Boyd, who was greatly interested in emigration from the East End of London. He believed that there was no secret about the proposals which Mr. Stephens made rather more than a year ago to Her Majesty's Government. The Canada Pacific Railroad was one of those gigantic enterprises connecting ocean with ocean which were pushed forward in these days with an energy and a vigour which were truly marvellous. The Railway Company had received from the Dominion Government large concessions of land alongside of the line, and that land was the subject-matter of the present proposal. In addition to that, the Hudson's Bay Company and the North-West Company were owners of vast tracts of land, and their object was to secure emigrants for that territory. Mr. Stephens's proposal, he believed was that Her Majesty's Government should advance without interest a loan of £1,000,000 sterling for 10 years; that the Company should allot to each settler a block of 160 acres, reserving the adjoining block of the same extent for the Company. The emigrant would be transplanted, provided with a house, agricultural implements, seeds—in fact, everything required to settle him on that block of land, at the same time taking such precautions that he would be able to live for the first year. The next step was to take a mortgage on the land at 6 per cent. The English Treasury were to advance the money, so that they would have ample means of seeing that it was properly expended; and the land, with the adjoining block reserved, would constitute the security for repayment. That was the scheme which was proposed in reference to Irish emigration alone. The plan proposed by Mr. Boyd was. He thought, in its general principles, so nearly like that of Mr.
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  Stephens that he need not particularly describe it. The Irish scheme had fallen through. Objections had been taken and difficulties made by Her Majesty's Government. He did not know in what condition the East London scheme stood; but he feared that little or nothing had been done. He was not there to advocate either Mr. Stephens's or Mr. Boyd's scheme. He did not desire to advocate any particular proposal, still less to advocate any broadcast and indiscriminate expenditure on the part of the Imperial Treasury. But he thought that the time had come when that question should be considered from different points of view as it had never yet been considered, and that the State might properly intervene, at all events, to help those who were doing their best to help themselves. That being so, he thought it was the duty of the Government not to leave that matter to voluntary effort entirely, but to see whether they could not devise some sound and practical method of assisting the work. The Irish scheme, as he had said, had failed. He did not know what the reason of that failure might be; but he believed his noble Friend was not wholly averse from the principle which he had mentioned. Last year he gave a very encouraging reply to a Question on this subject. He said that there was a great congestion of the labour market in the East of London, and that the difficulty was growing; and he wont on to say, speaking for the Colonial Office, that he did not know that any great difficulty need be apprehended as regarded this proposal, because it was no doubt possible to make arrangements with the Colonial Governments. Therefore, he did not think, so far as they might judge from the utterances of his noble Friend, that there would be any invincible objection on his part. What, then, was the objection, if there be one, on which this scheme was opposed? Was it an objection of principle, or was it merely an objection of Treasury detail? If it be an objection of principle, then he thought it was important their Lordships should know what it was; and if it be an objection on the part of the Treasury, he should like to know the nature of it? He had heard it said that the Canadian Government were perfectly willing to give every facility, to give actual security, for the payment of

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  this loan, to make themselves responsible for it, and to step, as it wore, into I the shoes of the landlord as regarded the emigrant tenant. He could perfectly well understand such an objection on their part; but he did not think that the same objection could apply at all to the Government. The risks and evil of allowing the present condition of things in our large towns to go on growing in the same ratio were tremendous, and it could hardly be doubted that it was a wise and sound policy to run some risk in its alleviation. He had little further to add in moving for the Correspondence, except to press to the utmost of his power on Her Majesty's Government and the House the great evil and danger of the present state of things, such as existed in many of oar large towns in the Kingdom. However continuous the emigration might be, more persons came into this town than were taken away. Emigration from Scotland, Ireland, and foreign countries poured into this large town, and the evil was still more enhanced by the fact that the German workman undersold the labour market of England. Lastly, there was emigration from our own country districts. Poor country people come to London, and by their presence contributed still more to swell the already enormous population. London at present was, in point of population, nearly as large as Scotland, and it was still increasing in size. No one could think of the condition of the Metropolis and the bonds which loosely held its immense population together without being made aware of the numberless difficulties and dangers which presented themselves at every turn. He thought we were approaching a time in the existence of these great cities, such as, indeed, the world had never seen before, and to which the attention of the Government ought to be most seriously directed. It was the duty of the Government to bring their minds, free of prejudice, to a consideration of the question and to accept the facts, such as they were. It was their duty to find a timely and well-considered measure to avert that which was an evil of overwhelming and increasing proportion.
  Moved "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for copies or extracts of correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the President of the
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  Canada Pacific Railway in regard to state-aided emigration to Canada; also, for copies or extracts of correspondence on the same subject between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr. F. Boyd."—(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I waited a moment to see whether any other noble Lord wished to follow the noble Earl in the interesting speech he has delivered. To those observations I am sure you will have listened with interest, whether you entirely agree or not with the conclusions to which he came. There is no doubt that the question to which he has called our attention is one, not merely of great interest at the present moment, but one of great importance in the future. It cannot be discussed in an off-hand manner and done with; the question of what we are to do with the outflow of our population is one not for this year or the next, but one which will concern the next generation as much as, if not more than, the present. Now, my Lords, I am not at all inclined to argue in a doctrinaire manner upon the question of how far State assistance should be given to promote emigration. The question, I think, has never been fully discussed or argued out in either House of Parliament, and it is one in which we must be guided much more by that experience which we gather as we go along than by any preconceived notions. There is no doubt, as my noble Friend has stated, that of late years we have been in the habit of sanctioning the employment of public funds for many purposes which it was formerly thought were better loft to individual enterprise. I do not say whether that tendency is good or bad. I accept it as one of the most remarkable characteristics of the time in which we live; and I willingly concede to my noble Friend that there are many worse uses to which public funds can be applied than that to which he proposes to apply them. I see no sense in talking about a scheme of State-assisted emigration, as if it were of a Communistic character, because if that is Communistic there are many things done by the State which equally deserve that character. My noble Friend was quite right in citing the case of the Poor Law and State assistance in education. If it be proper to feed a man when he cannot support himself, and to give his children the greater part of their primary educa-

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  tion gratis, then it is impossible to argue on the ground of principle against transferring labour at the public expense from one place where it is not wanted to another where it is wanted. I think, also, my Lords, there is no ground of complaint against the expenditure of public money from Imperial funds merely because it has conferred incidentally a benefit upon the Colonies which are concerned. If we find that we are better off by getting rid of a certain amount of labour which is not wanted in this country, if we can promote our own advantage and save our own pockets by transferring that labour elsewhere, it certainty is no reason against taking that step that the Colonies also will be the gainers by its being taken. But, my Lords, I do not think that my noble Friend has quite made out his case. He has to show that the work of emigration upon a great scale requires to be taken in hand, and that it cannot be done by private enterprize. Now, I am not speaking at all of what may be the case hereafter, and I am not laying down a general principle for all time; I am simply speaking with reference to the circumstances as they at present exist. I would just remind your Lordships of several facts with which I daresay you are familiar. The last Emigration Return shows that at this moment we have a larger outflow of population from the British Islands than has ever been known at any previous period. I may, perhaps, modify that statement so far as to except one or two years which immediately followed the Irish Famine; but the emigration of those years was duo to purely exceptional and temporary causes. I think if my noble Friend will look at the Emigration Returns which are on the Table of the House he will see that the emigration in 1883 was 320,000 persons of British and Irish origin, and this rate is greater than it has been at any previous period. Ireland alone contributed of that number 105,000 persons; and your Lordships will further find, by looking at. This Return, that the natural growth of Ireland is less than the outflow, and that the population is, in consequence, steadily decreasing. The same cannot be said of England and Scotland; but, taking the whole of the British Isles, your Lordships will see that the present rate of emigration is
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  equal to 1 per cent of the whole population. Speaking generally, and taking the country as a whole, I do not think there is a demand for any acceleration of this outflow. I quite agree with my hon. Friend that in considering this subject we must bear in mind the absorbing power of the Colonies themselves, and I do not believe that the present rate of outflow could be very largely increased without pressing unduly on the labour market of the Colonies. The next question is—Will the present rate of emigration continue? I think it will, and that it may very probably increase. I think we may fairly expect that the demand for labour in the Colonies, which to a great extent regulates the amount of emigration, will be greater in the future than in the past. The attractive power of a Colony is in proportion to the bulk of the attracting mass. It is greater in the United States than in Canada and Australia, because there is there more capital and more employment, and the field is being continually extended as the advantages of other countries are being made known. There is another cause which my noble Friend partly admitted. He stated that among the reasons why emigration was not as popular among the working classes as might be expected were ignorance and poverty. Whatever may happen as to the poverty of the working classes, there is no doubt that ignorance is diminishing from year to year, and especially ignorance on this subject. The rising generation are learning to read and write, and the next generation will be a much more reading people than the last. This change will especially take place and be most marked in the agricultural districts, which have hitherto been most backward. Moreover, there has been an enormous amount of emigration; and probably there is not a village or parish in the country from which one or two persons have not emigrated. In this way information as to Colonial life is communicated to those who stay at home. Those who thus take an interest in Colonial matters, and compare their chances of a career at home and in the Colonies, are in consequence year by year increasing. Then there is another consideration—that as communication becomes more rapid and more complete the risks and inconveniences of an emigrant's life tend to diminish. The attrac-

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  tion of cheap land remains; but the difficulty of getting to and fro and the hardships of an emigrant's life perpetually diminish. As to Ireland, there is, I think. additional and special cause why this emigration of the last few years should not diminish. We have heard quite enough in this House of the Irish land legislation of the last two years, and I do not wish to refer to it in any controversial spirit; but I think that, whatever other result may follow from the change in the Irish Land Laws, the tendency will be rather to promote than check the consolidation of farms, and, as a consequence, to increase the emigration of the surplus population. The Irish tenants have no longer any fear of eviction; but they have power to sell their holdings; the smaller and poorer farmers will be under a constant pressure to sell, especially in times of distress; and it is my opinion that the outward movement will be not retarded, but accelerated. Of course, the adoption of a higher standard of living and comfort, which I believe there is no doubt is taking place, tends in the same direction. For those reasons, it is my belief that, as far as the next few years are concerned, all the probabilities point, not to a diminution, but to an increase in the rate of the outward movement. If this is the case, it diminishes the urgency of the suggestion which my noble Friend now makes in favour of an official stimulus being given to emigration, he reminded us that Boards of Guardians have certain powers in this matter; and if these powers have not been used, I apprehend the reason to be that in the general judgment of those who have to deal with this matter emigration is already going on so rapidly as to require no stimulus. The noble Lord referred to the congestion of the labour market. I do not know if he meant all over the country, or in certain parts.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: In certain parts.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: Well, local distress and local difficulties require local rather than general treatment. The noble Earl specially referred to the East End of London, and I agree with what he said on that subject. But I am afraid that, do what you will—and a great deal has been done lately—you will find that the poorer parts of London
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  are the natural refuge of those who have failed elsewhere. I do not know why it is, but it has always been so. It is also a question how many of the East Enders, if they were offered the opportunity of emigrating, would be willing to go, or would be of the right sort to emigrate. It is not enough that a man should be able-bodied—that is, that he should have the right number of legs and arms—to make a successful emigrant. You require other qualities which are not always found in the poorest classes. We had some experience 14 or 15 years ago of a plan, not of emigration, but of migration. In 1869 and 1870 there was an exceptional amount of distress in the East End, and many men were sent from the East End to the Northern towns, where there was a brisk demand for labour; but the plan did not succeed. A few remained and prospered, but the majority went back. They did not like the new conditions of life which were offered, and preferred the distress with which they were familiar. Now, I have laid great stress upon that point, because it really is not enough that men should be in distress and want work to justify us in sending them to the Colonies. When the Colonists import labour for themselves it is their object to get men who will be able to do the work they require to be done. But when we export labourers, not because they are wanted in the Colonies, but because there is not work for them in this country, there is naturally a strong inducement to select not those who are the best fitted to go, but those who can best be spared. Another consideration is that no large scheme of emigration taken up by the State can possibly be expected to work without the co-operation of the Colonies to which the emigrants are sent. It is said that the Colonies ought to wish for a large supply of labour. If the emigrants are well chosen, it may, no doubt, be for the permanent benefit of the Colony that they should settle there; but it is not for I the benefit of all persons concerned—for instance, it is not for the benefit of the ruling class, which in Colonial communities is the working class. The labourers in the Colonies enjoy exceptionally high wages. They have got a good thing, and are, of course, desirous of keeping it; and for that reason no great scheme of emigration is likely to

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  be popular in the Colony to which the emigrants go. That consideration applies still more strongly if the Colonists believe, or seem to believe, that those we send out are those whom we wish to get rid of. But there is a Third objection to large schemes of emigration, and that is that in adopting them we should run the risk of superseding, instead of supplementing, private efforts in that direction. In certain districts there are persons who want to emigrate. Suppose that in a given district 100 men wish to go out; most of them will probably succeed with the help of their families, and of their richer neighbours in the absence of State help. If, however, Government passages were offered to 20 of them, the other 80 would be sure to wait until they also got help; and every man who was not assisted would feel aggrieved. I do not consider that an insuperable obstacle; but it is, nevertheless, one that would have to be encountered, and one that must be considered. With regard to the general plan which has been hinted at—namely, the plan of planting down a large community in a district reserved — I am not prepared absolutely to condemn it. There are, no doubt, some advantages in it, and possibly in some instances it might be successful; but it would more probably fail, for this reason—that such plans are arranged, not by those whom they chiefly concern, but by persons at a distance, who do not understand, and therefore fail to comply with, the necessary local conditions. I do not think my noble Friend will ask me to discuss in detail the Canadian scheme of last year. That scheme fell through because the Canadian Government absolutely declined to guarantee repayment of the sum proposed to be spent, and other securities were not deemed sufficient. It is obvious that if loans of that kind are to be made, repayment must be required. But if the Government is left to collect its debts from individual emigrants, which is the only other way of obtaining the money, I think there would be a very small prospect of the sum being obtained. In conclusion, I doubt whether there is, at the present time, any requirement or demand for such State emigration as my noble Friend proposes, and I doubt whether the scheme he proposes would be very well received in the Colonies. Moreover, I am quite
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  sure that if it is not cordially received by them it will not work; and I think, therefore, that the question would be better dealt with locally. For instance, it would be a very fair matter for a Municipal Authority for London, if we ever got one, to consider the question as it affects London. So with the other large towns, it is preferable that they should proceed step by stop, and feel their way, rather than that they should commit themselves at once to any heavy expenditure. The Papers I am able to produce will be rather scanty, and it would be inconvenient to give the inter-Departmental Correspondence; but such Correspondence as can be given shall be produced. Before sitting down, I should like to make a personal explanation. My noble Friend opposite, referring to a reply I made some time since to a Question on this subject, quoted me as having said that, in regard to a scheme of this sort, no difficulty would be found in the Colonial Office, and he inferred that there was disagreement between the Departments concerned. What I did say was that the objection, if any, would not he with the Colonial Office, but that we do not find the funds. The question of funds is a question for the Treasury; and I wish it to be understood that I did not in any way pledge my Colleagues, but that my observations applied solely to the action of my own Department.
  LORD NORTONwished to take the opportunity of saying a few words on what was, perhaps, a small branch of emigration, but which, at the same time, might be made a very successful and important one; and it had the merit that instead of costing anything it would effect an enormous saving. Every child which was brought up and boarded out in the cottages of foster parents, as was now very frequently the practice in this country, and still more so in Scotland, cost the Treasury something like £25 a-head per annum during the whole period of their education. If foster parents were found to take homeless children in Canada the saving would be as great to this country as the advantage to the Colony and to the children; for one single payment of £25 on sending the children to Canada would provide for them infinitely better than the £25 a-year during the whole of their education, which was paid for them in this country. They would there be

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  useful to their foster parents, and would become acclimatized to a country in which they would be able to find, and fit to exercise, certain employment hereafter.
  LORD DENMANsaid, it was courteous in the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) to give time for any noble Lord to speak; but it would have been vain for anyone to speak until he had heard the answer to the remarks of the noble Earl the late Secretary of State for the Colonies. He (Lord Denman) had had the honour of presenting a copy of Maguire's The Irish in America to the Library of their Lordships' House; he found in it that the Irish always adapted themselves to the best modes of agriculture. He was glad to hoar from the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) that emigration was on the increase, for it was far better for the poor to live abroad than to starve at home; but he did not think, because men were starving at the East End of London, that, if better fed, they would be unable (if also sober) to do any kind of work. He believed that it was a mistake for them to settle in towns; but he thought that fellow-labourers, instead of repelling them as the noble Earl imagined, would welcome them. He did not follow the utilitarian ideas of the noble Earl; and he hoped that, notwithstanding the want of a guarantee, emigration on a large scale would answer. At the same time, he wished that great care should be taken to prevent the people from believing that we wished to get rid of them.
  Motion agreed to.

THE MAURITIUS — ECCLESIASTICAL AND EDUCATIONAL MATTERS.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for copies or extracts of any recent correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Governor of the Mauritus on. ecclesiastical and educational questions."—(The Earl of Carnarron.)
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he had no objection to lay the Papers on the Table; but they would require preparing, and, pending their preparation, perhaps the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES — THE DEPORTATION OF FRENCH CON VICTS.

  QUESTION, OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY, in asking the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the French Government has yet communicated the estimate, promised in the Note Verb ale enclosed by Lord Lyons in his Despatch of 3rd December 1883, of the number of persons to whom the Bill for the deportation of recidivists is applicable? said, that, as his Question was directed to a practical object, he only wished to state the case very briefly. The Question referred to matters of very great importance—namely, the deportation of French convicts to Islands near our Colonies in the South Seas. In the Blue Book on the proposed annexation of New Guinea and the Conference on the subject held in Australia, there was a Note by Lord Lyons on this subject in reference to communications he had with the French Government in regard to the grievances of our Colonists as to the importation of French convicts. No one could be more aware than he was of the extreme delicacy of saying one word with respect to a foreign and friendly Power on the subject of the deportation of convicts. But that Note had caused dismay and horror in the Southern part of Her Majesty's Australian Dominions. In the Blue Book it was suggested that the excitement about this matter in Australia was possibly exaggerated. He wished to say emphatically that it was not. During the last 40 years, since the last shipload of English convicts was sent to Australia, there had been no feeling in that country comparable to the excitement existing there now. The noble Viscount near him (Viscount Sherbrooke) would remember the agitation that prevailed then—in fact, pars magna fuit. Since that time the population had doubled, and the present excitement was more than double in intensity. He hoped the noble Earl would be able to give them some assurance on this subject; and if the French Government had not redeemed their promise to send some figures on this subject, he would suggest that some courteous intimation might be made to them to the effect that the subject was one which largely interested the inhabitants of a portion of

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  the British Kingdom, and that further information was desirable.
  EARL GEANVILLE, in reply, said, he was not surprised that the noble Earl, who had had so recent an opportunity of making himself acquainted with our Australian Colonies, should have thought it right to call attention to this subject, and to the strong feeling which existed in the Colony. He believed the noble Earl had not, in the slightest degree, exaggerated the sentiment and the feeling of sympathy in the Colonies with regard to the Mother Country, or their intense alarm as to the possible emigration of foreign convicts from any neighbouring settlements. The noble Earl might be perfectly sure that Lord Lyons, acting under our instructions, was neglecting no opportunity of bringing before the notice of the French Government the feeling which existed in the Australian Colonies on this subject. The noble Earl was quite right in saying that this question was mixed up with questions of International Law in a way which created a certain amount of difficulty and embarrassment; but it might certainly be expected from a friendly country like France that it would not, without very cogent reasons, take steps which might cause the exasperation which, undoubtedly, now existed in the Colony. The Government had not received the estimate of numbers referred to by the noble Earl from the French Government; but in a recent conversation the French Foreign Minister verbally assured Lord Lyons that the intention of the Government was to send the great bulk of convicts to French Guiana, and only a small number to New Caledonia, and these were to be selected from among men who had been trained to manual labour, and who might, therefore, be serviceable in the Colony.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was aware that the question was one of delicacy; but his private information was such as to satisfy him that the noble Earl who had asked the Question had not overstated or exaggerated the strength of the feeling about it in Australia. He had reason to think that the number of criminal refugees who had found their way into Australia was rather large. It was important that the French Government should be made acquainted with the tension of feeling that
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  this question caused, and with the fact that there was always a risk of some strong measures being taken by the Colonists which would place both countries in considerable difficulty. He trusted that the Government, in their communications with the French Government with reference to this question, would use what diplomatic pressure they could, and would not treat the subject as if it were of small importance.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he would call attention to the subject on an early day after Easter.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.