Lords Sitting of 27 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Colonial Prisoners Removal* (44) Criminal Law Amendment* (45).
Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders* (33).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Considered—Third Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 1),* and passed.
Third Reading—Valuation (Metropolis) Amendment* (31), and passed.

ARMY—ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE, SANDHURST—EXAMINATIONS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether he will state the nature of the alteration which has been recently made in
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  the regulations for the examinations for admission to the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, and the grounds upon which the change has been made? I should like to ascertain what object the Government have in view in making this change? The practical result of the change made is that, whereas English composition, English history, and English literature, taken together, were subjects which had the highest number of marks—namely, 3,000—they have now been banished altogether from that favoured position, and put into the position of having only 1,000 marks attached to them. This will make them unlikely to be frequently selected by candidates as their subjects. In place of English literature, German and French literature are to receive the additional number of 1,000 marks. The result is that English literature is altogether swept out, and each candidate must take up Latin and mathematics, or German and French. I wish to know on what ground this set has been made against English literature? At the same time, another change has been made which I confess I regard with some regret. A much smaller value has been given than before to natural science, chemistry, and such subjects. Of course I am aware that public school boys will prefer Latin, but many boys take more readily to the study of English than Latin literature; and to many, not educated at public schools, English literature will be more acceptable and a better test of their capacity; and, certainly, if you look to the utility of the studies, English literature will compare favourably with Latin. The change with respect to natural science is still more to be regretted, because there is no body of men to whom a knowledge of science could be more useful, and conduce more to their happiness, especially when it is considered that they have to pass large portions of their time in various parts of the world, often with no adequate employment for their spare hours. I wish to know what are the latest intentions of Her Majesty's Government on this subject, as I understand that even yet there is some doubt on the subject, and what are the reasons for this change?
  THE EARL OF MORLEY,in reply, said, the Question was a very natural one, and he was not at all surprised at its being asked. At the same time, he

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  was much obliged to the noble Marquess for giving him an opportunity of explaining the main changes in the examinations, and the reasons which had induced Tier Majesty's Government to introduce them. The noble Marquess had been, no doubt, fairly accurate in the description of the main features of those changes. At present there were practically eight subjects given to candidates, of which they must take up not loss than two or more than four. These were—mathematics, to which 3,000 marks were given; English composition, English literature, and English history, limited to certain fixed periods, also 3,000; Latin, 3,000; Greek, 2,000; French and German, each 2,000; experimental sciences, 2,000; general and physical geography and geology, 2,000; freehand drawing, 1,000; and geometrical drawing, 500 marks. Under the new scheme a different line had been taken. The subjects were divided into three classes. In the first class were subjects having a maximum of 3,000 marks—namely, mathematics, Latin, French, and German, each of which commanded the maximum number of marks. In the second class came five subjects, with a maximum of 2,000 marks, given to Greek and to higher mathematics; 1,500 marks were given to each of the following subjects:—English history, included one general paper and one limited to a fixed period; experimental sciences; and general and physical geography and geology. In the third class came English composition, tested by the power of writing and essay, letter, or précis, freehand drawing and geometrical drawing. The maximum for each of these three subjects was 500 marks. It was proposed that every competitor who came up for this examination should have a more restricted option of subjects than he had before. In the first class he must take up three subjects, and, in addition, he might take up one subject in Class I. or Class II., and all the subjects in Class III. Far greater importance was thus given to modern languages in the now scheme, and also to mathematics, while less importance was given to science. The English paper as it had existed before was now abolished. The details which he gave to the House were, he acknowledged, somewhat technical. The object of these changes was not to screw up the
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  examinations, but as far as possible to improve their character and to encourage the taking up of subjects which must be taught rather than crammed. In drawing up that scheme they had had the advantage of the advice of the noble Viscount behind him (Viscount Enfield) and of the other Civil Service Commissioners, and of communication with a great, many gentlemen interested in education. Of course, the War Office had the whole responsibility of the scheme; but he begged to thank them for the assistance which they had given. They had also consulted other gentlemen who had been engaged in education. It was quite unnecessary to argue the question whether competitive examinations were good or bad. The main object was to test the results of a general education, and to do that satisfactorily it was necessary that the subjects should be general subjects, and not set ones. That was one of the faults of the present system. These examinations were not intended to be technical or military, but to test the general education of the candidates; their military education began at Sandhurst. They did not think it necessary or desirable, in drawing up a scheme for the examination of candidates for the Army, to follow the exact lines laid down by public schools. They should consider what were the subjects which should be included in general education, and thus encourage in the schools the study of those subjects which had hitherto been too little attended to in the scholastic curriculum. It was a matter of regret that during the last few years the number of successful candidates for admission to the Military College who came direct from the public schools was rather diminishing than increasing. At the February examination in 1877, out of 177 successful candidates 61 were helped by tutors—that was, 116 went straight from school. In December, 1883, out of 170 there were 123 helped by private tutors—that was, 47 went straight from school. He did not wish for a moment to speak disparagingly of private tutors, some of whom were extremely able and admirable teachers; but, taking them as a rule, he feared that their main object was mark-getting. They did not, in many cases, he believed, even require their pupils to read the books in which they were to be examined, but by an

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  ingenious process of analyzing all the questions which had been set at a given number of examinations they could almost exhaust the number of questions that were put, and then by means of epitomes, abstracts, and essays of all kinds which they made their pupils commit to memory, there were a great many chances to one that when their pupils came up for examination they would find these "tips" available for use. That, however, was not real education, but simply a process of cramming. It did not last, and had not the same effect on the mind as genuine teaching. But he had a still greater complaint, not against individuals, but against the system of private tutors, and that was the moral effect it had upon young men at a particularly critical period of their life. They went to them for a short time merely to obtain sufficient information to enable them to get the requisite number of marks to secure admission to Sandhurst. These tutors generally had little or no responsibility for and no moral supervision or control over their pupils. These pupils, while at school, were subject to the moral control of their tutors, and, what was even more important, to the public opinion of their school-fellows. He was glad to think that the tone of our public schools was sound and healthy. At Sandhurst, and afterwards in the Army, they were subject to military discipline, and to the influence of their brother officers. In the interval of time which was spent at a tutor's, prematurely emancipated from the restraints of school, they were not subject to the wholesome influences of school traditions, or of military discipline and esprit de corps. This he considered as a great danger to boys between 16 and 19 years of age, and he believed was the cause of many bad habits being contracted. Some time ago he had heard a story, though he could not vouch for its truth, which gave au idea of the general impression entertained in regard to the moral responsibility of those private tutors. He was told that a parent, anxious about certain irregularities which his son had committed, complained to his tutor, remarking on the peril which the young man's soul incurred. The tutor replied that he had no responsibility as to the pupil's soul, but had only to get his body into Sandhurst. The training in schools was
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  more healthy, and it was desirable, as far as they could, to obviate the necessity for the employment of those private tutors. It would be admitted that the staple elements of education were literary and scientific knowledge, languages, and mathematics. Mathematics, Latin, French, and German were now to be placed in the first class, each with a maximum of 3,000 marks. In the second class came Greek. It had been suggested that Greek should be put in the first class, but after careful consideration, it had been decided to put it in the second class. When really well learnt, Greek was an admirable instrument of education; but for boys who were going into the Army at 17 or 18, he found that the results to be obtained were so slight that they would not be justified in putting it higher in the scale than they had done. The noble Marquess had complained of the way in which they treated the English paper, which consisted of three parts—composition, literature, and history. The changes now made were to give English history and composition as separate papers, the former in the second, the latter in the third class, and to abolish the examination in literature altogether. With regard to English literature, it was a field in which cramming was most rampant. If they could exact from those young men a general knowledge of English literature it would be advantageous, but, as a matter of fact, it was acknowledged by all who had experience in such examinations to be impossible. He would repeat that in many cases the tutors did not even require the pupils to read the book in which they were to be examined. Much the same remark applied to history, in which also there was much cramming. As regards the examination in the experimental sciences, a deputation of distinguished gentlemen connected with the Royal Society and the British Association had met with the authorities of the War Office a few days ago, and they represented that it was extremely inexpedient to lower the number of marks allotted to experimental science. It was argued by them that lowering the number of marks given to this subject would discourage the instruction carried on in public schools. He was bound to say there was great force in that objection, and his noble Friend the Secretary of State for War was now considering

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  whether the same number of marks should not be attached to this paper as in the case of higher mathematics and Greek. At the same time, the gentlemen to whom he had referred, among whom were Professor Huxley and Dr. Carpenter, were of opinion that the present papers were not satisfactory. They had sent suggestions to the War Office with the view of re-classifying them in a more satisfactory manner, and this he thought would tend to the improvement of the papers. The last paper was that dealing with geography and geology. The gentlemen to whom he referred had admitted to him that they could not attach so much importance to to this paper as to experimental sciences. On this subject, again, the gentlemen to whom he referred had made several suggestions, and it was under consideration as to whether all the subjects should be placed in Class II. or on the same level. He thought he had now stated as carefully as he could the reasons which had induced the Government to alter the present scheme of arrangements at Sandhurst. The scheme he had sketched would still admit of a considerable choice of subjects being made to suit the tastes of candidates; but no doubt it was rather less elastic than the present scheme. He believed that all the subjects could be learnt at school; and the public schools must make efforts to improve the instructions which they gave in them, if they desired to retain their pupils, and to obviate the great evil which had resulted in the necessity of leaving the school to go to private tutors. He did not wish to say a word against private tutors as a rule, lie did not deny that many of them were able teachers; but, for reasons already given, he considered that, both morally and intellectually, the time spent with privote tutors was in too many cases badly spent. The scheme would not come into effect until the middle, or, perhaps, the end of next year, and therefore ample time would be afforded to all schools and individuals engaged in educational work to make any necessary alterations in their systems to suit the requirements which were now laid down for admission to the Army.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, he knew, from his own experience, of the degradation of the moral fibre of young men who were allowed, through the careless-
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  ness of private tutors, to dispense with the discipline that was so essential. He believed it to be essential that the young soldier should be familiarized with his weapons as early as possible in his career. He thought it was better to train a young soldier up to a certain point and until he was capable of attaining a certain amount of military knowledge. He referred to the establishment of the military school at Oxford for the purpose of breaking through the barrack system. The system had been an efficacious one. Young men wove taught all kinds of athletic sports, and he was confident that they did honour to the regiments by which they were selected.
  LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid, he hoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Morley) was correct in telling their Lordships that the alteration in the number of marks would not in any way tend to discourage English composition. He believed the early habit of English composition was of the greatest use in these days of examination to young officers who intended to make the Army their profession, because to attain the rank of captain they had to pass an important examination in tactics, and they could not write a good paper unless they knew something of composition.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, the noble Earl was correct in saying that the changes that had been sketched were the result of correspondence and consultation between the War Office on the one hand and the Civil Service Commission on the other. He believed that his noble Friend, together with the noble Marquess at the head of the War Office and the Civil Service Commissioners, acting in favour of the public and the Army, had but one object in view—namely, to make such changes in the examination as would give the fairest chance to young men who were educated in the public schools in order that they might be able to pass from those public schools direct to Woolwich and Sandhurst without the intervention of crammers. In regard to the subjects that were to be taught under this scheme, he thought elementary mathematics was a sine quâ non to any young man entering the Army. Latin and mathematics were subjects which were likely to be thoroughly taught in our public schools; but, unfortunately, it was too often the case that young men who had been edu-

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  cated in great schools like Eton, Harrow, Winchester, Cheltenham, and Marlborough, were obliged afterwards to have recourse to crammers. In limiting the subjects to Latin, mathematics, and French or German, good results were likely to be produced. The noble Marquess expressed regret that the number of marks allowed for English history had been reduced. Some correspondence had passed between the War Office and the Civil Service Commission on this point, and it was probable that the number of marks for this subject would be raised to 2,000, which would be a very fair amount. The parents and guardians of the young men who were candidates for the Army desired that the education which they received before they competed should be of a practical character, and that what they learnt they should learn thoroughly. With this object he thought it would be well if the War Office insisted upon elementary mathematics, one modern language, and Latin or Greek as essential in the examination for entrance into the Army, added to which there should be a competent knowledge of English history. The deliberations between the War Office and the Civil Service Commission on these matters had been of the most harmonious character.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, it was absolutely necessary that English officers should be thoroughly educated and trained for their work. He trusted that the short-service system would soon be replaced by long service, which would ensure better soldiers and improve the condition of the Army generally. They should not forget past dangers resulting from the state of the Forces. The noble Lord went into a criticizm of the tactics that had been employed in the conduct of the Zulu and Soudan Campaigns; but the drift of his observations did not reach the Gallery.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: My Lords, I shall not attempt to enter into the large military questions dealt with by the noble and gallant Lord who has just sat down, for I do not think that they are raised by the Question of the noble Marquess. But I should like to make this observation without giving any special opinion—that I think his con-demnation of any particular movement is rather a dangerous thing, and I cannot help thinking that the result of what
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  we have heard is quite inconsistent with the existence of the grave evils of which the noble Marquess is afraid. I think we may safely say that the gallantry of the troops serving in Egypt has been very conspicuous; and though, perhaps, some parsons are disposed to think lightly of the enemy they have had to deal with, I venture to think it is a very peculiar and special enemy, inspired with very great fanaticism, who it is well known will do anything and court death really with more pleasure than if he escaped destruction. Therefore, I do not think it can be said the enemy was not a formidable one. But, without going into that question, I will merely remark that the great object of our examinations was to open up the education of the country. We want to do away with cramming as much as possible, and to see young men enter Sandhurst and Woolwich from the great schools—from Eton, Harrow, or Winchester, or from the more modern schools, such as Wellington College and Marlborough College or Cheltenham College—rather than to come from a course of cramming, which, I am sorry to say, has been very much the practice. I wish to draw the attention of your Lordships to the desirability that the great schools should try to accommodate themselves to educating their young men so as to enable them to go direct to Sandhurst. We want young men to come up to the general education, such as I should think any young gentleman ought to have, whatever the special sphere of life he intends to adopt; and, therefore, our endeavour is to put forward such a syllabus of examination that all these young candidates should have a fair opportunity of entering Woolwich or Sandhurst direct from those schools, and that I may say is the object we have in view, and that I believe is the object of the noble Earl and of the noble Lord behind him. When they come to Woolwich or Sandhurst we try to instil into them those necessary military subjects which it is essential for them to know for the practice of their Profession; but up to that time we only look for an education in general subjects, and not special subjects—an education such as any gentleman ought to have if he wishes to be useful to his country. These changes have been made entirely with that object in view. I am con-

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  vinced, however, that should anything arise to lead us to suppose that some modifications in the proposed change are necessary to secure the result we desire, I have no doubt they will be gladly and willingly accepted. But I think, on the whole, the principle now laid down is a sound principle; and therefore I trust the great schools of the country will give us their assistance in enabling the young lads whom they educate to enter directly into the great Colleges of the Public Service without having to pass through an ordeal which I believe is not at all to their advantage.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not propose to follow my noble Friend who spoke before the illustrious Duke in the interesting matter with which he dealt. The judgment of military evolutions can only be satisfactorily performed by those who know the object of them, and I, at least, have not advanced to that knowledge yet. I have listened with great attention to the speeches of the illustrious Duke and the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State, from which it is evident that the policy which animates the ruling powers in this matter is to put down cramming. I dare say that may be theoretically desirable. I am not sure, however, that I can go without reserve even so far as that, for in many walks in life there is no power more desirable than the power of acquiring knowledge rapidly. But, on the whole, I sympathize with the efforts that are being made to repress the practice. I can also understand and sympathize with the feelings that have been expressed by the noble Earl as to the want of moral discipline which characterizes some of the establishments for private tuition. You will, however, never get rid of cramming as long as you have a system of competitive examinations. You might as well dream of having races without trainers, as of having competitive examinations without cramming. When we were at Oxford we thought it no shame or harm to have special coaches to prepare us for examinations. We were crammed, and my belief is that, wherever you have examinations, you will have crammers. I admit that, in connection with particular subjects, the system of cramming may be pushed too far; but wherever that is the case, the fault is due to the practice of the educational establish-
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  ments of the country, which have not brought themselves into harmony with your educational policy, and are pursuing a different system. A sudden change has consequently to be made at the time when a boy leaves school and before he enters the Army. The object of the military authorities is that sympathy should be established between them and the public schools, and that such a sudden reversal of study should not be necessary. I am inclined to think that they are pursuing that object in rather a dangerous way. If there is a difference of opinion between the great public authorities and the public schools, I think the former should hold out and not give way to the schools. When, in deference to the wishes of the public schools, you give up any particular branch of education, you are removing them from the influence of public opinion to which they ought to be subject. By deferring to the schools in educational matters, you may even preserve systems and methods of education which public opinion is beginning to condemn. With respect to the importance of English literature, I noticed that the noble Earl, in arguing against the subject, said—
  "You cannot expect boys of this age to have any general knowledge of English literature and history."
  But you expect them to have a general knowledge of Latin literature and history. Why cannot they have as general a knowledge of English as they can have of Latin? The only reason is that the public schools will not teach English literature and history, and if you tell them that you will change your course to suit their preconceived ideas, that will still continue to be the case. It is you who must force them, not they who must force you. I do not desire to depreciate the subjects of education hitherto taught, and I recognize the advantages arising from the study of Latin literature and history; but there is also some advantage arising from the study of English literature and history. There is no civilized country that treats its own tongue as badly as we do ours. In France and Germany the French language and the German language are the subjects of careful study, while we seem to treat our language and history as subjects of no importance, which may be learnt accidentally in the nursery or in conversation after school hours. That is

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  the great fault of our public school education; and I am sorry that the Government should not use the influence which those examinations give them, to lead the public schools into a more desirable path than that which they follow at present.

EGYPT—(MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN).—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he wished to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which he had given him private Notice. There was a report that some fresh information had been received from the Soudan with regard to the advance of General Graham. It would be a great advantage if the noble Earl would state how far it was correct?
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, Notice of this Question was given to me only two minutes ago. Therefore, it is necessary that the answer I give to the noble Earl should be received with reservation. As far as I know, the information which has been received from the Soudan is contained in a telegram from Sir William Hewett, dated Suakin, 2 P.M., this day. He says that the enemy had been driven away without loss on our side from a village the name of which I will not venture to pronounce, where water, which was much wanted by most of the men and animals, was found, and that the rebels were dispersing.

EGYPT—(MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN).—QUESTION.
  COLONIAL PRISONERS REMOVAL BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill to make further provision respecting the removal of prisoners and criminal lunatics from Her Majesty's Possessions out of the United Kingdom—Was presented by The Earl of DERBY; read 1a. (No. 44.)
  CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill to make further provision for the protection of women and girls, the suppression of brothels, and other purposes—Was presented by The Earl of DALHOUSIE; read 1a. (No. 5.)

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 1) BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order); Committee negatived: Then Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to order), and dispensed with; Bill read 3a, and passed.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.