(NO. 23.) COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 20 March 1884)

HL Deb 20 March 1884 vol 286 cc259-65 259

§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

§ Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Lord President.)

LORD BALFOUR
said, the Scottish Universities entertained objections to the Bill; but, as their contentions had been so fully discussed last year, he did not propose to move the Amendment he had submitted then. At the same time, he thought it necessary to inform the Government that these Universities did not look with any more favour on the Bill this year than they had done last year. The provisions which were chiefly objected to were those which they believed would lower the general standard of medical education in Scotland—at least, in so far as they were affected. What he principally referred to was the provision which, if passed into law as it stood, would require all candidates for their degree to undergo a double examination. There was no doubt that double examination was a very long and expen- 260 sive affair; and if the possession of a Degree of Medicine from one of the Universities was not to qualify for admission to the register, and if they would have to undergo a qualifying examination, it was quite absurd to suppose that the minimum examination for registration would be in any way the equivalent of the examination for a University degree. The state of matters, therefore, would be this—that although men who desired to practice might have obtained a University degree, which was the highest proof of their qualification to do so, they would be debarred from practising unless they also underwent the qualifying examination that would admit them to the register. The Universities feared that the expense and trouble of the double examination would deter a great number from taking University degrees after the passing of the Bill who now took them; and that, therefore, instead of making the general standard of practitioners higher in Scotland, the Bill would have a tendency to diminish the standard of attainments. Their Lordships, he thought, were not fully aware of the great expense and the time which were necessary for the present final examination in Medicine and Surgery. That examination frequently extended over five or six weeks, and it was impossible for any man to undergo it twice. If they could get the time, and pay the expense, it was very doubtful whether the unfortunate patients on whom they had to experiment would be able to stand the strain which was put upon them. At the present time, owing to the number of candidates for University degrees, the resources of the large Infirmary at Edinburgh were taxed to the utmost; and, if the examination was made double, he believed that it would be found unworkable in practice, as he believed it to be inexpedient in theory. As these points were fully debated and decided by their Lordships last year, he did not intend to propose any Amendments on the Bill in the direction he had indicated. Then there was another thing in connection with the constitution of the Board in Scotland. Last year the Universities were entitled to send eight and the Corporations three representatives; this year the representation of the Corporations had been increased to five. He did not think that, if the matter went no further, there would be any serious 261 opposition to the change on the part of the Scottish Universities; but with regard to outside opinion, he was not at all certain whether the particular method in which it was proposed to allocate the additional members among the different Corporations in Scotland was the most satisfactory that could be devised. That was a small matter of detail; but in regard to the Bill generally, he hoped it would not be said that, as no Amendment had been proposed, the Universities had departed from the views they had advanced on every previous occasion.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON
said, there was great satisfaction in Scotland with the change that had been made in the Bill, especially in regard to the representation of the Universities and the Medical Boards respectively; but, as to the allocation of the new members, there was great difference of opinion, the general objection being that undue preponderance was given to the interests of the Edinburgh School on the Medical Board. He was not prepared to offer any suggestion for obviating that complaint; but he hoped that the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) would see his way to effect that object. He had no doubt, from former expressions of his noble Friend, that he had had various and innumerable suggestions and complaints as to that measure. There was, however, one thing which he would venture to urge most strongly upon him, and that was that the Government should press the Bill through this Session. It was a most important measure; and. if the Government were really in earnest, they would have no difficulty in passing a Bill on that subject of far more practical value than many measures which might be of a more heroic character.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, he desired, in the Bill of this year, to do full justice to the two Scotch Medical Corporations. which he thought, under the Bill of last year, had but a scant amount of representation, He, therefore, now proposed to give them two additional representatives without upsetting the duo balance between them and the Scotch Universities, which should always possess the majority on the Joint Medical Board, In that object he thought he had so far succeeded that there had been a general 262 acceptance of the proposal by the bodies interested, and he was glad that so far the Scotch Universities acquiesced in it. Now, however, arose a difficulty of another kind, as to the allocation of the two new members, to which the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) had referred. The noble Duke knew by experience how difficult was the navigation of a Bill like that, and that it had to be steered through a labyrinth of shoals and quicksands lying in all directions, among which were the jealousies and the vested interests, or fancied interests, of a large number of rival bodies. They had first to deal with the jealousy of the Universities among themselves, then with the jealousy of the different Corporations among themselves, and then with the jealousy of the Universities in each country collectively, as against the Medical Corporations collectively. Now came another difficulty—namely, the jealousy between Edinburgh and the Provincial centres; and that was a difficulty which arose against the proposal he had made. He was not wedded to that proposal, but quite ready to consider any more satisfactory means of attaining the object in view; but he was bound to say that it was not very easy to devise a better plan. No one would say that the Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons in Glasgow was a first-class Medical Body; and, although the Government thought it entitled to representation, they considered it right to associate it with the Edinburgh College of Surgeons. With respect to the Bill itself, he was glad to hear what the noble Duke had said and his appeal to the Government, because he (Lord Carlingford) felt strongly that it was their duty to take every means in their power to obtain the passing of that measure into law before the end of this Session, and he should be deeply disappointed if that were not accomplished. He was, however, somewhat surprised to learn from the noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour) that there was likely to be some opposition to the Bill on the part of the Scottish Universities. He did not think the Scottish Universities had any fairground for opposition. The noble Lord, in fact, asked that they should be put on a footing of exceptional favour, and that, among all the Universities of the Three Kingdoms, 263 their degrees should alone be recognized as qualifying for registration. That, he thought, was too much to ask on behalf of the Scottish Universities, and they could not reasonably expect it to be conceded; but he was convinced that their interests would not be sacrificed or injured by the Bill.

§ Motion agreed to.

§ House in Committee accordingly.

§ Clauses 1 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.

§ Clause 9 (Establishment of medical boards).

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
, in moving an Amendment, the object of which was to effect a change in the constitution of the Irish Medical Board, said, he proposed to put the Irish College of Physicians upon an equality with the Irish College of Surgeons by giving an additional member to the Board. In order to maintain the balance of representation between the Irish Universities and the Irish Medical Colleges an additional member would be elected by Trinity College, Dublin, and the Royal University conjointly.

§ Amendment moved, In page 4, line 3, after ("Dublin") insert ("voting' as a separate elective body"): line 4, after ("Ireland") insert ("voting as a separate elective body; one by the University of Dublin and by the Royal University of Ireland voting collectively"): and in line 5. leave out ("two") and insert ("three").—(The Lord President.)

THE EARL OF LIMERICK
said, that although he did not intend to oppose the Amendment, he trusted the matter would not be considered as perfectly settled. He hoped the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) would fix the Report stage for such a day as would enable the noble Earl the Chancellor of the University of Dublin (Earl Cairns), who was unable to be present that evening, to have an opportunity of being present and stating his objections to the Amendment.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, he was bound to say that his information in regard to the University of Dublin on this point did not agree with that of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Limerick). Before he placed the Amendment on the Paper, he had an inverview with several members of the Trinity College, Dublin, 264 who expressed themselves as satisfied with the Amendment.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK
said, he must be allowed to again express the hope that the matter might be discussed at another stage of the Bill, and at such a time when his noble Friend (Earl Cairns) would be present, because he knew there was some feeling existing in regard to this matter.

§ Amendment agreed to.