Lords Sitting of 20 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders* (33).
Committee—Medical Act Amendment (23–34).
Committee—Report—Habitual Criminals Act Amendment* (28).
Third Reading—National Debt* (30); Trustee Churches (Ireland)* (32): Brokers (City of London)* (24), and passed.

MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord President.)

(NO. 23.) COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Lord President.)
LORD BALFOURsaid, the Scottish Universities entertained objections to the Bill; but, as their contentions had been so fully discussed last year, he did not propose to move the Amendment he had submitted then. At the same time, he thought it necessary to inform the Government that these Universities did not look with any more favour on the Bill this year than they had done last year. The provisions which were chiefly objected to were those which they believed would lower the general standard of medical education in Scotland—at least, in so far as they were affected. What he principally referred to was the provision which, if passed into law as it stood, would require all candidates for their degree to undergo a double examination. There was no doubt that double examination was a very long and expen-
260
sive affair; and if the possession of a Degree of Medicine from one of the Universities was not to qualify for admission to the register, and if they would have to undergo a qualifying examination, it was quite absurd to suppose that the minimum examination for registration would be in any way the equivalent of the examination for a University degree. The state of matters, therefore, would be this—that although men who desired to practice might have obtained a University degree, which was the highest proof of their qualification to do so, they would be debarred from practising unless they also underwent the qualifying examination that would admit them to the register. The Universities feared that the expense and trouble of the double examination would deter a great number from taking University degrees after the passing of the Bill who now took them; and that, therefore, instead of making the general standard of practitioners higher in Scotland, the Bill would have a tendency to diminish the standard of attainments. Their Lordships, he thought, were not fully aware of the great expense and the time which were necessary for the present final examination in Medicine and Surgery. That examination frequently extended over five or six weeks, and it was impossible for any man to undergo it twice. If they could get the time, and pay the expense, it was very doubtful whether the unfortunate patients on whom they had to experiment would be able to stand the strain which was put upon them. At the present time, owing to the number of candidates for University degrees, the resources of the large Infirmary at Edinburgh were taxed to the utmost; and, if the examination was made double, he believed that it would be found unworkable in practice, as he believed it to be inexpedient in theory. As these points were fully debated and decided by their Lordships last year, he did not intend to propose any Amendments on the Bill in the direction he had indicated. Then there was another thing in connection with the constitution of the Board in Scotland. Last year the Universities were entitled to send eight and the Corporations three representatives; this year the representation of the Corporations had been increased to five. He did not think that, if the matter went no further, there would be any serious

261
opposition to the change on the part of the Scottish Universities; but with regard to outside opinion, he was not at all certain whether the particular method in which it was proposed to allocate the additional members among the different Corporations in Scotland was the most satisfactory that could be devised. That was a small matter of detail; but in regard to the Bill generally, he hoped it would not be said that, as no Amendment had been proposed, the Universities had departed from the views they had advanced on every previous occasion.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, there was great satisfaction in Scotland with the change that had been made in the Bill, especially in regard to the representation of the Universities and the Medical Boards respectively; but, as to the allocation of the new members, there was great difference of opinion, the general objection being that undue preponderance was given to the interests of the Edinburgh School on the Medical Board. He was not prepared to offer any suggestion for obviating that complaint; but he hoped that the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) would see his way to effect that object. He had no doubt, from former expressions of his noble Friend, that he had had various and innumerable suggestions and complaints as to that measure. There was, however, one thing which he would venture to urge most strongly upon him, and that was that the Government should press the Bill through this Session. It was a most important measure; and. if the Government were really in earnest, they would have no difficulty in passing a Bill on that subject of far more practical value than many measures which might be of a more heroic character.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he desired, in the Bill of this year, to do full justice to the two Scotch Medical Corporations. which he thought, under the Bill of last year, had but a scant amount of representation, He, therefore, now proposed to give them two additional representatives without upsetting the duo balance between them and the Scotch Universities, which should always possess the majority on the Joint Medical Board, In that object he thought he had so far succeeded that there had been a general
262
acceptance of the proposal by the bodies interested, and he was glad that so far the Scotch Universities acquiesced in it. Now, however, arose a difficulty of another kind, as to the allocation of the two new members, to which the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) had referred. The noble Duke knew by experience how difficult was the navigation of a Bill like that, and that it had to be steered through a labyrinth of shoals and quicksands lying in all directions, among which were the jealousies and the vested interests, or fancied interests, of a large number of rival bodies. They had first to deal with the jealousy of the Universities among themselves, then with the jealousy of the different Corporations among themselves, and then with the jealousy of the Universities in each country collectively, as against the Medical Corporations collectively. Now came another difficulty—namely, the jealousy between Edinburgh and the Provincial centres; and that was a difficulty which arose against the proposal he had made. He was not wedded to that proposal, but quite ready to consider any more satisfactory means of attaining the object in view; but he was bound to say that it was not very easy to devise a better plan. No one would say that the Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons in Glasgow was a first-class Medical Body; and, although the Government thought it entitled to representation, they considered it right to associate it with the Edinburgh College of Surgeons. With respect to the Bill itself, he was glad to hear what the noble Duke had said and his appeal to the Government, because he (Lord Carlingford) felt strongly that it was their duty to take every means in their power to obtain the passing of that measure into law before the end of this Session, and he should be deeply disappointed if that were not accomplished. He was, however, somewhat surprised to learn from the noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour) that there was likely to be some opposition to the Bill on the part of the Scottish Universities. He did not think the Scottish Universities had any fairground for opposition. The noble Lord, in fact, asked that they should be put on a footing of exceptional favour, and that, among all the Universities of the Three Kingdoms,

263
their degrees should alone be recognized as qualifying for registration. That, he thought, was too much to ask on behalf of the Scottish Universities, and they could not reasonably expect it to be conceded; but he was convinced that their interests would not be sacrificed or injured by the Bill.
Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
Clauses 1 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 9 (Establishment of medical boards).
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in moving an Amendment, the object of which was to effect a change in the constitution of the Irish Medical Board, said, he proposed to put the Irish College of Physicians upon an equality with the Irish College of Surgeons by giving an additional member to the Board. In order to maintain the balance of representation between the Irish Universities and the Irish Medical Colleges an additional member would be elected by Trinity College, Dublin, and the Royal University conjointly.
Amendment moved,
In page 4, line 3, after ("Dublin") insert ("voting' as a separate elective body"): line 4, after ("Ireland") insert ("voting as a separate elective body; one by the University of Dublin and by the Royal University of Ireland voting collectively"): and in line 5. leave out ("two") and insert ("three").—(The Lord President.)
THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, that although he did not intend to oppose the Amendment, he trusted the matter would not be considered as perfectly settled. He hoped the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) would fix the Report stage for such a day as would enable the noble Earl the Chancellor of the University of Dublin (Earl Cairns), who was unable to be present that evening, to have an opportunity of being present and stating his objections to the Amendment.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he was bound to say that his information in regard to the University of Dublin on this point did not agree with that of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Limerick). Before he placed the Amendment on the Paper, he had an inverview with several members of the Trinity College, Dublin,
264
who expressed themselves as satisfied with the Amendment.
THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he must be allowed to again express the hope that the matter might be discussed at another stage of the Bill, and at such a time when his noble Friend (Earl Cairns) would be present, because he knew there was some feeling existing in regard to this matter.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10 (Medical board to regulate examinations subject to control of Medical Council and Privy Council).
On the Motion of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendment made:—In page 6, line 10, leave out ("in each part") and insert ("as between the several parts").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11 to 17, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 18 (Course of medical education).
On the Motion of the LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendments made:—In page 10, line 2, leave out ("prescribed"); and in line 3, leave out ("and such medical education shall comprise ") and insert ("comprising").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 (Medical board to regulate course of medical education subject to control of Medical Council and Privy Council).
On the Motion of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendments made:—In page 10. line 18, after the first ("The") insert ("required"); line 20, after ("The") insert ("required"); lines 20 and 21, leave out ("in this Act referred to as the prescribed course "); line 22, leave out ("In defining the prescribed") and insert ("with respect to the"); line 29, leave out ("prescribed"); and after line 35 insert as a separate paragraph:—
"Any scheme under this section shall be framed in such manner as to secure, so far as is practicable, as between the several parts of the United Kingdom, a substantial equality of standard as respects education and examinations."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 37, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 38 (Appointment of officers by medical board).
On the Motion, of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendment made:—In page 23, line 9, leave out ("secretary"), and after ("and") insert—
("May also from time to time with the like assent and sanction appoint and remove a secretary and").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 39 (Appointment of officers by Medical Council).
On the Motion of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendment made:—In page 23, line 17, leave out ("registrar, secretary"), and after ("treasurer") insert ("or treasurers"), and after the first ("and") insert—
("May also from time to time, with the like sanction, appoint and remove a registrar, secretary, and").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 51, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 52 (Time of nomination and election of Medical Council).
On the Motion of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendment made:—In page 32, line 16, after the first ("the") insert ("member or").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 53 (Schemes for examinations and course of medical education).
On the Motion of The LORD PRESIDENT, the following Amendment made:—In page 32, line 34, leave out ("for") and insert ("respecting").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Clauses agreed to.
House resumed.
Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 34.)

HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES —THE ROYAL COMMISSION—PRECEDENCE OF ROMAN CATHOLIC PRELATES—CARDINAL-ARCHBISHOP MANNING.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, with reference to the announcement which has been published in The
  266
  London Gazette of the 4th March instant, that—
  "The Queen has been pleased to issue a Commission under Her Majesty's Royal Sign Manual," addressed to "Our right trusty and wellbeloved Councillor, Sir Charles Wentworth Dilke, Baronet, President of the Local Government Board, Chairman: Our most dear Son Albert Edward Prince of Wales, Knight of Our most noble Order of the Garter, Field Marshal in Our Army: Our trusty and well-beloved the Most Reverend Cardinal Archbishop Henry Edward Manning, Doctor in Divinity; Our right trusty and entirely beloved Cousin and Councillor Robert Arthur Talbot Marquess of Salisbury. Knight of Our most noble Order of the Garter; Our right trusty and right well-beloved Cousin Adelbert Wellington Brownlow Earl Brownlow; Our right trusty and well-beloved Councillor Charles Robert Baron Carington, Captain of Our Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms; Our right trusty and well-beloved Councillor George Joachim Goschen; Our right trusty and well-beloved Councillor Sir Richard Assheton Cross, Knight Grand Cross of Our most honourable Order of the Bath; the Right Reverend Father in God William Walsham Bishop Suffragan of Bedford; Our trusty and well-beloved Edward Lynlph Stanley, Esquire, commonly called the Honourable Edward Lyulph Stanley; Our trusty and well-beloved William Torrens McCulllagh Torresn, Esquire. Bachelor of Laws; Our trusty and well-beloved Henry Broadhurst, Esquire; Our trusty and well-beloved Jesse Collings, Esquire; Our trusty and well-beloved George Godwin, Esquire, Fellow of the Royal Society; and Our trusty and well-beloved Samuel Morley, Esquire;"
  and nominating, constituting, and appointing the said parties, in the above-named order of precedence, to be Her Majesty's Royal Commissioners "to enquire into the housing of the working classes;" Whether their attention has been directed to the statement in The Tablet, the leading Roman Catholic newspaper, of the 8th March instant, expressing the gratification felt—
  "In observing that its proper precedence had been given to the name of His Eminence the Cardinal Archbishop, immediately after that of the Prince of Wales;"
  and upon what grounds have Her Majesty's Government considered it their duty to advise Her Majesty to issue Her Royal Commission, giving official recognition of such title of dignity to the said "Most Reverend Cardinal Archbishop Henry Edward Manning," and according to him rank and precedence next to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, and above the precedence accorded to Her Majesty's "Cousin and Councillor the Marquess of Salisbury" and the other noblemen, bishop, councillors, knights, sons of noblemen, de-

  267
  signated only by their "commonly called" titles of courtesy, and other gentlemen named in the said Royal Commission; and whether such Royal Proclamation in The London Gzette confers any authoritative recognition of such rank, dignity, or title of precedency to the said Henry Edward Manning? said, that in putting the Question, he wished to make a short personal explanation. He would not trouble their Lordships with any further observations than to say that this was a kind of personal recognition of Cardinal Manning. In saying that, he had no wish that ecclesiastics, laymen, or Roman Catholic Churchmen should not be treated exactly the same, and on the same footing, as any other of Her Majesty's subjects, no matter of whatever denomination. He wished, however, that the mere fact of their belonging to a particular religion should not entitle them to any extra privilege or precedent.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in reply, said, Her Majesty's Government had, in this matter, followed strict precedent. There were no fewer than three precedents which he would shortly quote to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Oranmore and Browne). The first was that of the Royal Commission on Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) Fund. The date was December 20, 1844, and the list of names was in the following order:—The Most Rev. Father in God the Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of Ireland; next came the Most Rev. Father in God the Archbishop of Dublin; after that came the Most Rev. the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Armagh, Dr. Croly.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I beg pardon; but my Question is not with regard to the Archbishop of Dublin. I referred to the title "Cardinal Archbishop."
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, the next precedent was in 1849. On the 7th of August of that year there appeared in The Dublin Gazette a notice of a Levee and Drawing Room in Dublin Castle, which set forth that Her Majesty had been pleased to desire that the following persons should have the entrée to the Castle:—The Primate, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the Archbishop of Dublin, the Roman Catholic Primate, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, the Duke of Leinster, and others,
  268
  this being the order in which they were named. The third, and by far the most important precedent, was that afforded by the Charter of the Royal University of Ireland, which was signed in 1880 by the late Duke of Marlborough, then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and in which the following names appeared in the following order:—First there was the name of the Right Rev. Dr. Trench, Archbishop of Dublin, and then followed that of Archbishop MacCabe, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, which was immediately before that of "Our trusty and well-beloved Councillor," Dr. Ball, then Lord Chancellor of Ireland. So that in that instance the Roman Catholic Archbishop came next after the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin, and before the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. These were the precedents which Her Majesty's Government had followed in issuing the Royal Commission, and they had given to "Cardinal Archbishop Henry Edward Manning" a place next to the Prince of "Wales, which was that which most certainly belonged to him. As, in Ireland, former Roman Catholic Archbishops came next to Archbishops of the Established Church, and before the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, it was thought that Cardinal Manning should have similar precedence in the Royal Commission that had just been issued.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Dalhousie) had not answered the latter part of the Question on the Paper—Whether the Royal Proclamation in The London Gazette conferred any authoritative recognition of rank, dignity, or title of precedency to the said Henry Edward Manning?
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE: This confers no further precedence on Archbishop Manning than did the former Royal Proclamations, in accordance with the precedent created by which this Royal Commission has been issued.
  LORD DENMANsaid, he thought it unfortunate that the title of Archbishop, in connection with Cardinal Manning, should have been introduced into the Commission, because the rank of His Eminence as a Prince of the Roman Catholic Church was undoubted; but Westminster was part of the diocese of the Bishop of London. He believed that Cardinal Manning would have

  269
  served on the Commission without requiring his title of Archbishop to be recognized. He was always most distressed at the divisions among Christians, between Protestants and Catholics. They ought to live together in a friendly way. He reminded the House that sometimes too great power had been assumed by Popes; and alluded to the Battle of Varna, and to the taking of Constantinople—which fact would nut have offended the Mahommedans, nor would Constantinople have been taken by them, if a Pope had not absolved Christians from an oath to maintain peace for 10 years. Benedict XIII., one of the best Popes who ever sat in the Chair, at the instigation of the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, between 1715 and 1740, gave a plenary indulgence to all who would say and pay for ayes and a Pater, in order to aid the cause of the Pretender; but, though £1,500 was collected, the Government discovered the plot, and prevented all mischief. On the other hand, Protestants had, at times, done things to provoke the larger number of Romanists, of whom a Lord Lieutenant had said that it was the "duty of the Government to protect the Protestants, but not to persecute the Catholics." And on August 8, 1832, Mr. Shaw, Recorder of Dublin, had set the example of Obstruction by dividing the House of Commons 17 times on the re-commitment of the Party Processions Bill. This was recorded in the Journals of the House of Commons; it was a debate on a Wednesday, and the hon. Member, in a contemporary Memoir, was stated to have expressed his regret, justifying himself that he had made a vow to use every form of Obstruction; but he was sorry for it, and would not do so again.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BEOWNEsaid, he thought the answer of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Dalhousie) scarcely satisfactory. In the first place, he (Lord Oranmore and Browne) was not aware that Irish precedents were precedents in this country. The same rank, he believed, had never been accorded in this country to Catholic Prelates as in Ireland, and he doubted whether announcements in The Dublin Gazette were to be treated as binding legal documents in this country. In the second place, it was very doubtful whether the Crown had the Constitutional right of conferring precedence at all—whether
  270
  the precedence granted by 32 Hen. VIII. could be interfered with by the Prerogative of the Crown. The point was mooted when a Bill was brought in for the naturalization of the late Prince Albert. The Duke of Wellington raised the point, and it was doubted whether the Crown could give precedence to Prince Albert. It was thon admitted that there were no precedents. Lord Melbourne, who was then Prime Minister, said that if they did not give Prince Albert precedence by Act of Parliament, there was no other way of giving it. Lord Cottenham, the Lord Chancellor, acceded to that view; and the Government found the matter so difficult that they withdrew the Bill as to precedence, and merely passed a Naturalization Act. Lord Brougham asked Her Majesty's Government how they contemplated dealing with the subject? They declined to answer, and, a few days later there appeared in The Gazette a declaration by Her Most Gracious Majesty giving Prince Albert precedence, so far as it was not forbidden by Act of Parliament—leaving it an open matter as to what precedence this gave to the Prince. The Government were strong enough to hold their ground. It was an exceptional case, and everyone wished to gratify the Queen. The matter, therefore, passed without remark. But the present was a very different case, and it would be quoted as a precedent for the conferring of precedence by the mere power of the Crown. He admitted that the Roman Catholic Church was a great power for good or evil, and that no Government could preserve peace and order, as in Ireland, if it set it at defiance. But let their relations with that Church be regulated by some Act of Parliament, and not by a side-wind such as this for more Party interests, and contrary to the Constitution of this country.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, that Her Majesty's Government did not intend, by the issue of this Commission, that any new precedent should be created. He had quoted the three precedents in accordance with which the Commission had been issued, and, whatever those precedents were, they were created long ago, and this Commission created nothing new.
  EARL CADOGANsaid, that as he understood the quotations made by

  271
  the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Brown) from The Gazette, they amounted to a contention that it was not within the power of Her Majesty to create any precedence, and that it must be done by Act of Parliament. Now, The Gazette merely contained an enumeration of names arranged in order according to former precedents. There had been no attempt to create a new precedent, as that would have to be done, as the noble Lord himself had pointed out, by Act of Parliament; and therefore his own argument showed that no new precedent had been created.

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES —THE ROYAL COMMISSION—THE CHIEF RABBI.—QUESTION.
  LORD GREVILLEasked Her Majesty's Government, If they will add the name of the Chief Rabbi to the Royal Commission to inquire into the housing of the working classes?
  LORD CARRINGTON, in reply, said, it was not the intention of the Government to add any new names to the Commission. At the same time, he must say he thought it would be quite impossible to speak in too high terms of the good work done by Dr. Adler, the Chief Rabin, in London, and of the admirable way in which the Jewish charities and institutions were managed. He did not doubt that the Chief Rabbi, from his knowledge and experience in connection with the subject of the housing of the poor, would be able to give very valuable information; but there were many noble Lords and gentleman of whom the same might be said, and, as the number of Commissioners had been limited, the selection had been confined to those who were most qualified to serve. He understood his noble Friend to suggest the appointment of the Chief Rabbi should be made as the head of a religious body. Her Majesty's Government could not agree with the view that the question of religious creed should of itself determine the selection of a Royal Commission; and he thought their Lordships would agree that a Commission of that kind would have been placed on a most unsound basis.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.